What if Jesus did not come to die for our sins?

timothyu

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I think Christians should repent and return to Jesus, if they truly want to be disciples of Jesus.
Good point yet doing missionary work with Christians is tougher than with jungle tribes. More chance of being boiled in a pot. Minds are sealed shut by years of selective teachings and the concept of Kingdom over world of man has been long lost.
 
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Robin Mauro

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This is going to be controversial, so just keep an open mind before a new jerk response.

What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.

Often, to the outsider, and sometimes the believer, this idea of sacrificing animals, etc. is confusing. Add to that that Jesus and the Father are one, and the logic goes:
God made Adam and Eve. They disobeyed God and sinned, as we all do, because they were imperfect, as we all admit we are.
Because of this, they were expelled from Eden and sentenced to toil and eventually die.
In order to save the world from this punishment he created, he impregnated a virgin with himself, and was then crucified by Pilot, and rose again, to appease himself for the world’s sin.

When we forgive another for sinning against us, we do not demand that they kill their dog, or give some other sacrifice. We simply forgive the sin, explaining how it harmed you, and asking them not to do it again.

When the woman was caught in adultery, after her accusers had left, Jesus said “Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven. Go and sin no more.”

He didn’t say, “Your sins have been forgiven*
*pending my upcoming crucifixion and resurrection

If the only thing necessary for salvation was Christ’s death, they could have allowed Harod to kill Jesus with the rest of the children he was executing.

Is it possible that Jesus came here to teach us how to love one another?
Jesus, when asked if one should forgive their neighbor 7 times, Jesus says, “70 x 7.” Despite some literalists who have told me that meant one only has to forgive 490 times, and apparently keep a ledger and keep track, I understand it to me to forgive without limit, as many times as you would wish to be forgiven of the Father.
He told Parables of the sheep and goats, of how one is to love actively, versus simply refraining from doing misdeeds toward one another.
He told a Parable of the man forgiven a great debt who refused to forgive the small debt of his servant, angered the master, who then reinstated the debt. Christ is saying that we are forgiven a great debt, way before he was crucified.

So, why the crucifixion? To show how far Christ/God would go for us because of his great love, to the point of being willing to allow us to kill him, and still offer love and forgiveness.

Not completely biblical, but then again, when Jesus flipped over the tables in the temple, it was because people had made sacrifices into a way to make a buck, offering people entering the temple a sacrifice they had bought, but wasn’t really a sacrifice. When I went to my church, I never had to bring a dove or goat to sacrifice to God to show my loyalty or sincerity.
not do I demand it from another, or to find their most prized possession and destroy it as a sacrifice for atonement. I simply forgive.

******
As a side note, a Christian once told a story of how there was a Christian Man, his wife, and their 5 year old child, and an atheist on a boat.
They were caught in a storm, and the boat began to sink.
There was one emergency lifeboat, but it would hold only 3.
The Christian husband panicked, jumped over his wife and child and got in the boat. Then, realizing how bad that looked, said that way he could help others get on the boat.
The atheist then helped the child, and then the wife, before the boat sank and the atheist drowned.

Question: Does the atheist go to heaven?
I said, “Yes, of course.”
He said, “Wrong. Because he did not believe in Christ, he is now burning in hell.”
I argued,” but he sacrificed his own life so that he could save the Christian family.”
He said, “no good works get you into heaven.:
I said, “I’m not saying that he earned his way into heaven by dying. I am saying that he loved his neighbor so much, that he was will to sacrifice himself that they may live.”
He said, “Doesn’t matter. You can’t be saved without Jesus.”
I said, “Then I don’t understand. You have a husband that thought of himself before the atheist, his wife he loves, and even his own child. I get that people panick, but he showed that he was not following Jesus by loving his neighbor as himself, but rather, loving himself before others. By contrast, the atheist, not believing in a heaven or hell, that by sacrificing himself, his life will simply end, but chose to give up his life out of love for the family, he was acting Christlike.”
He said: “Doesn’t matter.”
I said: But he sacrificed his life, just as Christ sacrificed his life for us, that we might live. And the bible states that giving your life for another is the greatest kind of love their is.”
He said, “still doesn’t count.”
I said: Then your religion makes no sense.
You believe that Christ died for the world demonstrating his love for us, but when a human does it for another, regardless of their religion, it’s not as good as Jesus’ death, despite that the Bible says otherwise.
The atheist demonstrated his love for his neighbor without believing there is a heaven nor eternal life awaiting, but simply, nothingness, and still gave up his life.
The Christian husband thought only of himself, and yet, on some technicality of believing in Christ, yet not following Christ in at least thinking of his daughter and wife first, is given a free ticket to heaven.

That makes no logical sense.
"He who loves me is he who does my will." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy."
As to the rest, Christ was the final blood sacrifice.
And, it took me forever to figure out why God demanded a blood sacrifice. It was because we killed, as far back as Cain and Able. It was for justice.
" The life is in the blood."
Some people say God killed first when He made clothing for Adam and Eve but the Bible doesn't say that. It is human logic...'God must've killed to get the animal skins', but the creator of the universe could make leather without killing if He wanted to.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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This is going to be controversial, so just keep an open mind before a new jerk response.

What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.

Often, to the outsider, and sometimes the believer, this idea of sacrificing animals, etc. is confusing. Add to that that Jesus and the Father are one, and the logic goes:
God made Adam and Eve. They disobeyed God and sinned, as we all do, because they were imperfect, as we all admit we are.
Because of this, they were expelled from Eden and sentenced to toil and eventually die.
In order to save the world from this punishment he created, he impregnated a virgin with himself, and was then crucified by Pilot, and rose again, to appease himself for the world’s sin.

When we forgive another for sinning against us, we do not demand that they kill their dog, or give some other sacrifice. We simply forgive the sin, explaining how it harmed you, and asking them not to do it again.

When the woman was caught in adultery, after her accusers had left, Jesus said “Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven. Go and sin no more.”

He didn’t say, “Your sins have been forgiven*
*pending my upcoming crucifixion and resurrection

If the only thing necessary for salvation was Christ’s death, they could have allowed Harod to kill Jesus with the rest of the children he was executing.

Is it possible that Jesus came here to teach us how to love one another?
Jesus, when asked if one should forgive their neighbor 7 times, Jesus says, “70 x 7.” Despite some literalists who have told me that meant one only has to forgive 490 times, and apparently keep a ledger and keep track, I understand it to me to forgive without limit, as many times as you would wish to be forgiven of the Father.
He told Parables of the sheep and goats, of how one is to love actively, versus simply refraining from doing misdeeds toward one another.
He told a Parable of the man forgiven a great debt who refused to forgive the small debt of his servant, angered the master, who then reinstated the debt. Christ is saying that we are forgiven a great debt, way before he was crucified.

So, why the crucifixion? To show how far Christ/God would go for us because of his great love, to the point of being willing to allow us to kill him, and still offer love and forgiveness.

Not completely biblical, but then again, when Jesus flipped over the tables in the temple, it was because people had made sacrifices into a way to make a buck, offering people entering the temple a sacrifice they had bought, but wasn’t really a sacrifice. When I went to my church, I never had to bring a dove or goat to sacrifice to God to show my loyalty or sincerity.
not do I demand it from another, or to find their most prized possession and destroy it as a sacrifice for atonement. I simply forgive.

******
As a side note, a Christian once told a story of how there was a Christian Man, his wife, and their 5 year old child, and an atheist on a boat.
They were caught in a storm, and the boat began to sink.
There was one emergency lifeboat, but it would hold only 3.
The Christian husband panicked, jumped over his wife and child and got in the boat. Then, realizing how bad that looked, said that way he could help others get on the boat.
The atheist then helped the child, and then the wife, before the boat sank and the atheist drowned.

Question: Does the atheist go to heaven?
I said, “Yes, of course.”
He said, “Wrong. Because he did not believe in Christ, he is now burning in hell.”
I argued,” but he sacrificed his own life so that he could save the Christian family.”
He said, “no good works get you into heaven.:
I said, “I’m not saying that he earned his way into heaven by dying. I am saying that he loved his neighbor so much, that he was will to sacrifice himself that they may live.”
He said, “Doesn’t matter. You can’t be saved without Jesus.”
I said, “Then I don’t understand. You have a husband that thought of himself before the atheist, his wife he loves, and even his own child. I get that people panick, but he showed that he was not following Jesus by loving his neighbor as himself, but rather, loving himself before others. By contrast, the atheist, not believing in a heaven or hell, that by sacrificing himself, his life will simply end, but chose to give up his life out of love for the family, he was acting Christlike.”
He said: “Doesn’t matter.”
I said: But he sacrificed his life, just as Christ sacrificed his life for us, that we might live. And the bible states that giving your life for another is the greatest kind of love their is.”
He said, “still doesn’t count.”
I said: Then your religion makes no sense.
You believe that Christ died for the world demonstrating his love for us, but when a human does it for another, regardless of their religion, it’s not as good as Jesus’ death, despite that the Bible says otherwise.
The atheist demonstrated his love for his neighbor without believing there is a heaven nor eternal life awaiting, but simply, nothingness, and still gave up his life.
The Christian husband thought only of himself, and yet, on some technicality of believing in Christ, yet not following Christ in at least thinking of his daughter and wife first, is given a free ticket to heaven.

That makes no logical sense.
The prophesies needed to be fulfilled. Salvation was through the Jew first. They were given several covenants commencing in the final "New covenant", Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The whole purpose was to reconnect God with man through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came upon men and women in the past but never "lived" in them until the work of the cross was accomplished. This is all about the restoration of the relationship between His creation and Himself. First to the Jew then to the Gentile.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Man was created in "God's image" so no matter what is believed, all men have the ability to connect with his Creator. All through history there were a few who held to the "Word" as truth like Abraham,Noah, Moses, Job etc. There were also many of those who believed like them and they became know as "the chosen ones" from all nations. God reads the heart of the "faithful" man to the Word. If a man has no desire to connect with their Creator, then the goodness in that man, like your Atheist example, is only of this world and their reward will remain in this world. A righteous man believes in God first and is counted as righteous. Our works are the fruit of the Holy Spirit and seen justified before God the Father. Those regenerated with His Holy Spirit are now in the Body of Christ AKA The Kingdom of God. The second death hath no power over them

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
 
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LiquidCat

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This is going to be controversial, so just keep an open mind before a new jerk response.

What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.

Often, to the outsider, and sometimes the believer, this idea of sacrificing animals, etc. is confusing. Add to that that Jesus and the Father are one, and the logic goes:
God made Adam and Eve. They disobeyed God and sinned, as we all do, because they were imperfect, as we all admit we are.
Because of this, they were expelled from Eden and sentenced to toil and eventually die.
In order to save the world from this punishment he created, he impregnated a virgin with himself, and was then crucified by Pilot, and rose again, to appease himself for the world’s sin.

When we forgive another for sinning against us, we do not demand that they kill their dog, or give some other sacrifice. We simply forgive the sin, explaining how it harmed you, and asking them not to do it again.

When the woman was caught in adultery, after her accusers had left, Jesus said “Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven. Go and sin no more.”

He didn’t say, “Your sins have been forgiven*
*pending my upcoming crucifixion and resurrection

If the only thing necessary for salvation was Christ’s death, they could have allowed Harod to kill Jesus with the rest of the children he was executing.

Is it possible that Jesus came here to teach us how to love one another?
Jesus, when asked if one should forgive their neighbor 7 times, Jesus says, “70 x 7.” Despite some literalists who have told me that meant one only has to forgive 490 times, and apparently keep a ledger and keep track, I understand it to me to forgive without limit, as many times as you would wish to be forgiven of the Father.
He told Parables of the sheep and goats, of how one is to love actively, versus simply refraining from doing misdeeds toward one another.
He told a Parable of the man forgiven a great debt who refused to forgive the small debt of his servant, angered the master, who then reinstated the debt. Christ is saying that we are forgiven a great debt, way before he was crucified.

So, why the crucifixion? To show how far Christ/God would go for us because of his great love, to the point of being willing to allow us to kill him, and still offer love and forgiveness.

Not completely biblical, but then again, when Jesus flipped over the tables in the temple, it was because people had made sacrifices into a way to make a buck, offering people entering the temple a sacrifice they had bought, but wasn’t really a sacrifice. When I went to my church, I never had to bring a dove or goat to sacrifice to God to show my loyalty or sincerity.
not do I demand it from another, or to find their most prized possession and destroy it as a sacrifice for atonement. I simply forgive.

******
As a side note, a Christian once told a story of how there was a Christian Man, his wife, and their 5 year old child, and an atheist on a boat.
They were caught in a storm, and the boat began to sink.
There was one emergency lifeboat, but it would hold only 3.
The Christian husband panicked, jumped over his wife and child and got in the boat. Then, realizing how bad that looked, said that way he could help others get on the boat.
The atheist then helped the child, and then the wife, before the boat sank and the atheist drowned.

Question: Does the atheist go to heaven?
I said, “Yes, of course.”
He said, “Wrong. Because he did not believe in Christ, he is now burning in hell.”
I argued,” but he sacrificed his own life so that he could save the Christian family.”
He said, “no good works get you into heaven.:
I said, “I’m not saying that he earned his way into heaven by dying. I am saying that he loved his neighbor so much, that he was will to sacrifice himself that they may live.”
He said, “Doesn’t matter. You can’t be saved without Jesus.”
I said, “Then I don’t understand. You have a husband that thought of himself before the atheist, his wife he loves, and even his own child. I get that people panick, but he showed that he was not following Jesus by loving his neighbor as himself, but rather, loving himself before others. By contrast, the atheist, not believing in a heaven or hell, that by sacrificing himself, his life will simply end, but chose to give up his life out of love for the family, he was acting Christlike.”
He said: “Doesn’t matter.”
I said: But he sacrificed his life, just as Christ sacrificed his life for us, that we might live. And the bible states that giving your life for another is the greatest kind of love their is.”
He said, “still doesn’t count.”
I said: Then your religion makes no sense.
You believe that Christ died for the world demonstrating his love for us, but when a human does it for another, regardless of their religion, it’s not as good as Jesus’ death, despite that the Bible says otherwise.
The atheist demonstrated his love for his neighbor without believing there is a heaven nor eternal life awaiting, but simply, nothingness, and still gave up his life.
The Christian husband thought only of himself, and yet, on some technicality of believing in Christ, yet not following Christ in at least thinking of his daughter and wife first, is given a free ticket to heaven.

That makes no logical sense.

No , Jesus came to not only die for sins but to fulfill Prophecy if he did not then how could he prove that he was God ?
 
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hedrick

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What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world
You've combined several theological issues here in a way that I agree with. But it might be useful to separate them.

1) The biggest is the atonement, why Christ's death benefits us. You're reacting against what is called "penal substitution." But the current modern form is actually fairly recent, though related versions are older. The early church had other ideas. Your suggestion is one of them. Others are given in various responses here. See Rom 6 for Paul's. John Calvin (who for some reason is considered the inventor of penal substitution) said that what mattered wasn't just Christ's death, but his obedience throughout his life. This benefits us because of union with him. (He uses the wonderful phrase "community of righteousness" for the connection between us and Christ.) As one poster noted, Eastern Orthodox never quite adopted penal substitution.

2) You suggest that righteous non-Christians will be saved, and note that Jesus' teaching seems to say that. I agree. This is opposed most strongly by conservative Protestant theology, which claims there's no such thing as a righteous person. They claim this contrary to Biblical evidence. (Look up "righteous" in a concordance or Bible search program.) That doesn't mean that anyone can earn God's love, which of course is Paul's point in saying that we can never be righteousness enough to justified (i.e. accepted by God) because of it. But we don't have to.

Your posting is pretty typical of mainline Protestants today, and has some overlap with Orthodox and even Catholic theology. (Recent popes would agree with your second point, to the dismay of conservative Catholics.)
 
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GenemZ

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What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.


Instead of Him being forsaken by God for our sins? We would not be here now to ask that question. We would have been forsaken.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying,
“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have
you forsaken me?”
Mat 27:46

The Gospel accounts (in the Greek tenses) tells us that he did not scream that out just once. But screamed out many times as he was bearing the agony of being rejected by the Father in our place.

Once our sins began to touch his sinless body the Father and Holy Spirit (my God, my God) had to forsake Him. It was not until the last sin of mankind was bore on His body was He able to once again call God by "Father." For, while bearing our sins He was cut off the relationship connection. Because sin cuts one off from fellowship with God!

We could not pay for that sin penalty. For being stuck with a fallen body? We could never recover. Jesus was God's "safety valve" to drain off our sins and then have sinless Jesus return alive. Once alive, He is to become our new body that allows us to live in eternity.

It was a neat trick of God's Holy justice that soon frustrated and infuriated Satan once he caught on to what God had done in redeeming men. Up until the Cross God had no right to call man his own anymore. Satan was perplexed for years as to how God could make such a claim about OT saints whom Satan knew were unworthy to be God's own. The Cross came. Satan now could see why. God wins.
 
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Qwertyui0p

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I think you have a good point. Bible shows clearly that Jesus could forgive sins before his death and he gave that same right for his disciples also. And actually, that he forgave sins was one reason why people wanted to kill him.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

The Biblical reason why Jesus came is this:

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

And the reason why Jesus died:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

Unfortunately it seems that many modern “Christians” are hypocrite and don’t really care about what Jesus preached and the message is rejected and people are rather focused on own doctrines and habits.

It is no wonder why atheism is spreading, “Christians” unfortunately have themselves rejected Jesus and his teachings, so it is no miracle, if other people also do the same. I think Christians should repent and return to Jesus, if they truly want to be disciples of Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63
It's not that Jesus had to die so he could forgive sins, or that since he forgave sins before he died he didn't die because of our sin. Rather, he could forgive sins before he died, but his death was necessary to remove the punishment for our sin.
 
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Qwertyui0p

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This is going to be controversial, so just keep an open mind before a new jerk response.

What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.

Often, to the outsider, and sometimes the believer, this idea of sacrificing animals, etc. is confusing. Add to that that Jesus and the Father are one, and the logic goes:
God made Adam and Eve. They disobeyed God and sinned, as we all do, because they were imperfect, as we all admit we are.
Because of this, they were expelled from Eden and sentenced to toil and eventually die.
In order to save the world from this punishment he created, he impregnated a virgin with himself, and was then crucified by Pilot, and rose again, to appease himself for the world’s sin.

When we forgive another for sinning against us, we do not demand that they kill their dog, or give some other sacrifice. We simply forgive the sin, explaining how it harmed you, and asking them not to do it again.

When the woman was caught in adultery, after her accusers had left, Jesus said “Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven. Go and sin no more.”

He didn’t say, “Your sins have been forgiven*
*pending my upcoming crucifixion and resurrection

If the only thing necessary for salvation was Christ’s death, they could have allowed Harod to kill Jesus with the rest of the children he was executing.

Is it possible that Jesus came here to teach us how to love one another?
Jesus, when asked if one should forgive their neighbor 7 times, Jesus says, “70 x 7.” Despite some literalists who have told me that meant one only has to forgive 490 times, and apparently keep a ledger and keep track, I understand it to me to forgive without limit, as many times as you would wish to be forgiven of the Father.
He told Parables of the sheep and goats, of how one is to love actively, versus simply refraining from doing misdeeds toward one another.
He told a Parable of the man forgiven a great debt who refused to forgive the small debt of his servant, angered the master, who then reinstated the debt. Christ is saying that we are forgiven a great debt, way before he was crucified.

So, why the crucifixion? To show how far Christ/God would go for us because of his great love, to the point of being willing to allow us to kill him, and still offer love and forgiveness.

Not completely biblical, but then again, when Jesus flipped over the tables in the temple, it was because people had made sacrifices into a way to make a buck, offering people entering the temple a sacrifice they had bought, but wasn’t really a sacrifice. When I went to my church, I never had to bring a dove or goat to sacrifice to God to show my loyalty or sincerity.
not do I demand it from another, or to find their most prized possession and destroy it as a sacrifice for atonement. I simply forgive.

******
As a side note, a Christian once told a story of how there was a Christian Man, his wife, and their 5 year old child, and an atheist on a boat.
They were caught in a storm, and the boat began to sink.
There was one emergency lifeboat, but it would hold only 3.
The Christian husband panicked, jumped over his wife and child and got in the boat. Then, realizing how bad that looked, said that way he could help others get on the boat.
The atheist then helped the child, and then the wife, before the boat sank and the atheist drowned.

Question: Does the atheist go to heaven?
I said, “Yes, of course.”
He said, “Wrong. Because he did not believe in Christ, he is now burning in hell.”
I argued,” but he sacrificed his own life so that he could save the Christian family.”
He said, “no good works get you into heaven.:
I said, “I’m not saying that he earned his way into heaven by dying. I am saying that he loved his neighbor so much, that he was will to sacrifice himself that they may live.”
He said, “Doesn’t matter. You can’t be saved without Jesus.”
I said, “Then I don’t understand. You have a husband that thought of himself before the atheist, his wife he loves, and even his own child. I get that people panick, but he showed that he was not following Jesus by loving his neighbor as himself, but rather, loving himself before others. By contrast, the atheist, not believing in a heaven or hell, that by sacrificing himself, his life will simply end, but chose to give up his life out of love for the family, he was acting Christlike.”
He said: “Doesn’t matter.”
I said: But he sacrificed his life, just as Christ sacrificed his life for us, that we might live. And the bible states that giving your life for another is the greatest kind of love their is.”
He said, “still doesn’t count.”
I said: Then your religion makes no sense.
You believe that Christ died for the world demonstrating his love for us, but when a human does it for another, regardless of their religion, it’s not as good as Jesus’ death, despite that the Bible says otherwise.
The atheist demonstrated his love for his neighbor without believing there is a heaven nor eternal life awaiting, but simply, nothingness, and still gave up his life.
The Christian husband thought only of himself, and yet, on some technicality of believing in Christ, yet not following Christ in at least thinking of his daughter and wife first, is given a free ticket to heaven.

That makes no logical sense.

Jesus forgave peoples sin before he died, but that doesn't mean he didn't die because of our sin. He could forgive sin before his death, but 'the wages of sin is death' (Romans 6:23) and his death was necessary to pay the price for our sin. He forgave sin before death, he just didn't pay the price until later. We no longer have to sacrifice animals to pay for sin because Jesus paid for it himself.

The reason an atheist would go to hell despite sacrificing his life for someone else is that our attitude towards God is what determines whether we go to heaven or hell.

Also, Jesus didn't come to Earth just to 'teach us how to love' (People already knew how to love, though Jesus extended that to everyone, even enemies), he also taught other things, like don't be a hypocrite. And there's good reason Jesus died on the cross, because he wouldn't have been able to teach anyone anything before his death and the Church wouldn't exist.
 
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GenemZ

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Rather, he could forgive sins before he died, but his death was necessary to remove the punishment for our sin.

This might help clarify...

Before the Cross was completed believers were denied access to Heaven. After the Cross Jesus took all believers below the earth up with Him in His ascension. Not before the Cross, for their sins were not yet paid for in time. In God's mind they were paid for, but not yet officially for all finite beings to witness to. That is why God alone could forgive sins before the Cross took place!

That is why those who died prior to the Cross had to be quarantined and held in a waiting room below the earth (Abraham's Side).

The penalty for being a sinner (which causes us to sin by default) was God needing to distance Himself from all of us. For God can not make Himself to be one with any sin. If there were no Cross for Jesus to take upon Himself the penalty for us? God would have needed to forsake all mankind.

Instead of having us bearing the penalty? God took all our sins and poured them on Jesus as He hung on the Cross.

Jesus Himself never sinned. Yet ,by becoming one with our sins in His body, it forced God to forsake His beloved Son because of our sins. Its not us that God hates. Its our sin He hates. Because, sin denies God oneness with His beloved creation whom He created for His love!

Man's penalty for being born a sinner? In God's justice was to be Forsaken by God. But, God assumed the responsibility for our fallen state because we had no choice in causing ourselves being born sinners.

Our sins that would have caused God to forsake us if their were no solution, is why Jesus was forsaken by God the Father and Holy Spirit while Jesus baptized into direct contact with our sins.

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God,
why have you forsaken me?")
. Mat 27:46​

Unlike ourselves, Jesus had no sin nature from birth.

So, after the last sin of mankind that He bore caused His separation from God was over with? And, there were no more sins to bear? Jesus was automatically restored to fellowship with the Father.

On the Cross while bearing our sins Jesus could only refer to the Father in the generic term for deity, "God." But, right after the last sin had been finished being poured on Him? He then sensed being restored to fellowship with the Father and knew our salvation from sin was completed. That is when He stopped saying "God" and returned using the vocative term "Father. For He was no longer separated from His Father and the Holy Spirit.

"Father, into your hands I commit my (human) spirit."

That human spirit of Jesus had been His spiritual "lifeblood" in his spiritual walk with the Father! Jesus was then presenting to the Father the sacrificed "blood of the Lamb." His human spirit! (Jesus did not physically bleed to death. He voluntarily breathed out his last breath to die physically).

While bearing our sins? His own Deity was cut off within Him, just like we can become when we grieve and quench the Spirit. His Deity never departed. Just like the Holy Spirit will never depart us, even if we choose to habitually live in some sin. The Holy Spirit stays inside us grieved and quenched, unable to be one with us! While bearing our sins, His Deity locked Himself into a prison of the humanity bearing sin. Awaiting for the last sin to be bore by Jesus and done over with!

......... grace and peace!
 
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mrhagerty

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genez wrote:
This might help clarify...

Before the Cross was completed believers were denied access to Heaven. After the Cross Jesus took all believers below the earth up with Him in His ascension. Not before the Cross, for their sins were not yet paid for in time. In God's mind they were paid for, but not yet officially for all finite beings to witness to. That is why God alone could forgive sins before the Cross took place!

The theology here seems a little shakey. There is no Scripture that states man was "banned" from Heaven until the payment of Christ on the Cross. It is true that animal sacrifices were a postponement of punishment, awaiting the perfect sacrifice of Christ. But the broad entrance of the saved into Heaven was not delayed because of the timing of the Cross, but because of God's plan for the order of Resurrections, as elucidated in the Revelation.

Against the idea that believers could not enter Heaven is the capture of Elijah by a great chariot into Heaven (2 Kings Ch 2)

Prior to the Cross, at the Transfiguration Jesus is seen with Moses and Elijah. If Elijah was taken to Heaven and comes to earth from there, that Moses is coming from the same place as Elijah. Therefore, Heaven is not barred for believers by some principle, as in the Cross had not been accomplished.

Man's penalty for being born a sinner? In God's justice was to be Forsaken by God. But, God assumed the responsibility for our fallen state because we had no choice in causing ourselves being born sinners.

". . . because we had no choice in causing ourselves being born sinners" is contradicted in Romans where Paul makes it clear we are still guilty in Adam before we are guilty for our own sins.

So, the logic above is more an outcome of thinking about these matters and producing an explanation. But since Romans supplies the explanation, there is no need to venture human ones.
 
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GenemZ

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genez wrote:


The theology here seems a little shakey. There is no Scripture that states man was "banned" from Heaven until the payment of Christ on the Cross. It is true that animal sacrifices were a postponement of punishment, awaiting the perfect sacrifice of Christ. But the broad entrance of the saved into Heaven was not delayed because of the timing of the Cross, but because of God's plan for the order of Resurrections, as elucidated in the Revelation.

Against the idea that believers could not enter Heaven is the capture of Elijah by a great chariot into Heaven (2 Kings Ch 2)

Prior to the Cross, at the Transfiguration Jesus is seen with Moses and Elijah. If Elijah was taken to Heaven and comes to earth from there, that Moses is coming from the same place as Elijah. Therefore, Heaven is not barred for believers by some principle, as in the Cross had not been accomplished.



". . . because we had no choice in causing ourselves being born sinners" is contradicted in Romans where Paul makes it clear we are still guilty in Adam before we are guilty for our own sins.

So, the logic above is more an outcome of thinking about these matters and producing an explanation. But since Romans supplies the explanation, there is no need to venture human ones.


No sir.... Elijah was taken up into the heaven as in the sky... but not to heaven. It does not say he was taken to heaven. But, up into the heavens and out of sight.

The Books of Kings describes the prophet Elijah being taken towards "shamayim" in a whirlwind, but the word can mean both Heaven as the abode of God, or the sky (as the word "heavens" does in modern English), and so again the text is ambiguous. Entering Heaven alive - Wikipedia


Up until the Cross and resurrection Elijah was with Samuel below the earth in Abraham's Side. As all OT believers were awaiting the Cross. For, when we read about in the witch of Endor account? Where Samuel was brought up by God.. (which freaked the witch out) OT saints were awaiting below the earth.

That is one reason why Jesus had to descend below the earth into "Paradise." It was to take all those souls waiting to be taken up with Him in his train as he ascended to Heaven.
 
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mrhagerty

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No sir.... Elijah was taken up into the heaven as in the sky... but not to heaven. It does not say he was taken to heaven. But, up into the heavens and out of sight.

The Books of Kings describes the prophet Elijah being taken towards "shamayim" in a whirlwind, but the word can mean both Heaven as the abode of God, or the sky (as the word "heavens" does in modern English), and so again the text is ambiguous. Entering Heaven alive - Wikipedia

In that case, I choose the "Heaven as the abode of God" meaning.

You have to coordinate this with the Transfiguration when Moses and Elijah return. Your model would mean they were hanging around in the sky out of sight since the times when Moses died and Elijah was taken, then descended from the sky to appear with Jesus.

If you wish to incorporate the Holding Room you mention, how did Elijah get from the sky to the holding area into which Jesus descended so as to lead captive?

Then there's the reverse trip. Elijah must leave the holding area and be sent to the sky again out of sight, so as to appear coming down from it.

Your explanation is too mechanical and requires these unknown journeys of Elijah from the sky to Hades and back in order to meet the awkwardness of your explanation. None of which is explained in Scripture.
 
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SkyWriting

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This is going to be controversial, so just keep an open mind before a new jerk response.

What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.

Often, to the outsider, and sometimes the believer, this idea of sacrificing animals, etc. is confusing. Add to that that Jesus and the Father are one, and the logic goes:
God made Adam and Eve. They disobeyed God and sinned, as we all do, because they were imperfect, as we all admit we are.
Because of this, they were expelled from Eden and sentenced to toil and eventually die.
In order to save the world from this punishment he created, he impregnated a virgin with himself, and was then crucified by Pilot, and rose again, to appease himself for the world’s sin.

When we forgive another for sinning against us, we do not demand that they kill their dog, or give some other sacrifice. We simply forgive the sin, explaining how it harmed you, and asking them not to do it again.

When the woman was caught in adultery, after her accusers had left, Jesus said “Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven. Go and sin no more.”

He didn’t say, “Your sins have been forgiven*
*pending my upcoming crucifixion and resurrection

If the only thing necessary for salvation was Christ’s death, they could have allowed Harod to kill Jesus with the rest of the children he was executing.

Is it possible that Jesus came here to teach us how to love one another?
Jesus, when asked if one should forgive their neighbor 7 times, Jesus says, “70 x 7.” Despite some literalists who have told me that meant one only has to forgive 490 times, and apparently keep a ledger and keep track, I understand it to me to forgive without limit, as many times as you would wish to be forgiven of the Father.
He told Parables of the sheep and goats, of how one is to love actively, versus simply refraining from doing misdeeds toward one another.
He told a Parable of the man forgiven a great debt who refused to forgive the small debt of his servant, angered the master, who then reinstated the debt. Christ is saying that we are forgiven a great debt, way before he was crucified.

So, why the crucifixion? To show how far Christ/God would go for us because of his great love, to the point of being willing to allow us to kill him, and still offer love and forgiveness.

Not completely biblical, but then again, when Jesus flipped over the tables in the temple, it was because people had made sacrifices into a way to make a buck, offering people entering the temple a sacrifice they had bought, but wasn’t really a sacrifice. When I went to my church, I never had to bring a dove or goat to sacrifice to God to show my loyalty or sincerity.
not do I demand it from another, or to find their most prized possession and destroy it as a sacrifice for atonement. I simply forgive.

******
As a side note, a Christian once told a story of how there was a Christian Man, his wife, and their 5 year old child, and an atheist on a boat.
They were caught in a storm, and the boat began to sink.
There was one emergency lifeboat, but it would hold only 3.
The Christian husband panicked, jumped over his wife and child and got in the boat. Then, realizing how bad that looked, said that way he could help others get on the boat.
The atheist then helped the child, and then the wife, before the boat sank and the atheist drowned.

Question: Does the atheist go to heaven?
I said, “Yes, of course.”
He said, “Wrong. Because he did not believe in Christ, he is now burning in hell.”
I argued,” but he sacrificed his own life so that he could save the Christian family.”
He said, “no good works get you into heaven.:
I said, “I’m not saying that he earned his way into heaven by dying. I am saying that he loved his neighbor so much, that he was will to sacrifice himself that they may live.”
He said, “Doesn’t matter. You can’t be saved without Jesus.”
I said, “Then I don’t understand. You have a husband that thought of himself before the atheist, his wife he loves, and even his own child. I get that people panick, but he showed that he was not following Jesus by loving his neighbor as himself, but rather, loving himself before others. By contrast, the atheist, not believing in a heaven or hell, that by sacrificing himself, his life will simply end, but chose to give up his life out of love for the family, he was acting Christlike.”
He said: “Doesn’t matter.”
I said: But he sacrificed his life, just as Christ sacrificed his life for us, that we might live. And the bible states that giving your life for another is the greatest kind of love their is.”
He said, “still doesn’t count.”
I said: Then your religion makes no sense.
You believe that Christ died for the world demonstrating his love for us, but when a human does it for another, regardless of their religion, it’s not as good as Jesus’ death, despite that the Bible says otherwise.
The atheist demonstrated his love for his neighbor without believing there is a heaven nor eternal life awaiting, but simply, nothingness, and still gave up his life.
The Christian husband thought only of himself, and yet, on some technicality of believing in Christ, yet not following Christ in at least thinking of his daughter and wife first, is given a free ticket to heaven.

That makes no logical sense.


Those who selflessly do for others are accepting Jesus' love.
God knows the heart and only judges that.
 
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GenemZ

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In that case, I choose the "Heaven as the abode of God" meaning.

You have to coordinate this with the Transfiguration when Moses and Elijah return. Your model would mean they were hanging around in the sky out of sight since the times when Moses died and Elijah was taken, then descended from the sky to appear with Jesus.

Have you acquainted yourself with the witch of Endor account? Where was Samuel?

With the rich man and Lazarus? Where did they go?

Elijah was taken up and out of sight. It does not say where God kept him.

We need not be afraid of death. Moses and Elijah were not.

You also have a lot of explaining to do if you are saying that God allowed certain OT saints into Heaven before the ascension and kept all the others (including Samuel and Abraham) below the earth...

I am not on shaky ground, sir. You? You are all over the place. Without rhyme, nor reason. Please make sense of it why Moses and Elijah should be given access to heaven, and all other great OT believers had to wait in Paradise below the earth with Abraham.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what
fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity
on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am
in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

:scratch: You can't have it both ways. They had to wait below the earth until the Cross cleared the way to Heaven by means of Jesus blood.


8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)



grace and peace..
 
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SkyWriting

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This is going to be controversial, so just keep an open mind before a new jerk response.

What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.

For example, if Jesus had resisted arrest. Then, no Savior for us.
 
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mrhagerty

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:scratch: You can't have it both ways. They had to wait below the earth until the Cross cleared the way to Heaven by means of Jesus blood.

I didn't see an explanation for how Elijah came and went from Hades to the sky and back again, except to say that we don't know. When you pose an explanation that obligates another problem to be explained, it isn't kosher to say, "We don't know where God kept him."

The account of Abraham's bosom and the rich young ruler cannot be a description of the real place for a number of reasons.

1) Abraham's bosom isn't an actual place because all OT believers believed they would end up there and it would be physically impossible to have such a population placed in his bosom. It's an expression for rest.

2) The place where Abraham is seen is in close proximity to where the rich young ruler is suffering punishment for his deeds. The biblical details of Hades nowhere describes it as a place where the wicked begin receiving their punishment. They haven't been judged. That judgment takes place at the end of the Millennium after the Second Resurrection, per the book of Revelation. So the man Jesus describes in a hot and tortuous place asking Abraham that someone go and warn his brother can't be a real description of a place if the Last Judgment has not taken place.

3) if believers go to this holding area awaiting Christ's judgment of the righteous, and that Judgment takes place at His Second Coming as the First Resurrection, there would be no one to raise if Jesus at His burial descended into the holding area and led them all out of captivity.

You can say that Jesus led out all OT believers before the Cross and the First Resurrection all those after the Cross, but this would mean two first Resurrections: one during Jesus' time in the grave, the other at His Second Coming. The latter couldn't be properly titled, "The First."

4) If Jesus freed those in Hades, now benefiting from His death on the Cross, how are there still OT saints still in their graves, who rise from their opened tombs and appear to many in the city?
Matt 27:52

As for partial resurrection of some, but not for others, Matt 27:52 only talks about many not all. If this is how all the righteous of all ages past were resurrected, there would be millions of souls coming out of their opened tombs, including the righteous men in other parts of the world whom Paul describes as being righteous even though they only had the Creation to witness of God.

Matthew 27:52 is describing only some of the saints rising from their tombs, ergo some, not all.
Furthermore, how are they rising from the physical location of their tombs if they had been previously just freed from Hades as Christ led them out from captivity, as you say?
 
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...Is it possible that Jesus came here to teach us how to love one another?...

Jesus says this is the reason he came:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

And Bible tells this is the reason he died:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9
 
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Jesus says this is the reason he came:

Luke 4: 43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 4: 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom...

Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 9: 35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom

Luke 8: 1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

Luke 9: 1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

etc.
 
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