AD 622 to AD 1922 – seventh beast empire?

Christian Gedge said:

Sure, but have you ever studied how inter-testament writers identified the 4 beasts of Daniel? They talk a bit about bears and leopards etc, but didn't have a lot to go on; not really. Fast forward to the 10 division geography that Historicists talk about, and they do round about as well IMO.

Ive got some more thoughts to share, but Im not going to worry too much if no one agrees. Get me started on chapter 9. Now, there's a hill worth dying on!

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I always enjoy your writings. I find them informative. I respect your diligence and research.

Christian Gedge said:

Looking at the timeline in post #6, lets start with what everyone agrees on! Daniel, during the Babylon era, prophecies of 4 ‘beasts’. “These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.” (Daniel 7:17)

John, during the Roman era, has one beast but with 7 ‘heads’. “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains … they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is.” (Revelation 17:9-10) In John’s case he starts with an earlier world power (5 have fallen), and his “one is” refers to the empire in existence as he speaks.

So, putting both prophecies together, we agree on the empire timeline so far, yes?

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Medo-Persia
5. Greece
6. Rome

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The harmonization of Daniel and Revelation is great stuff, Chris. Thanks and keep it coming.

Christian Gedge said:

I would put it this way: The saints inherit the (fullness) of the kingdom after the (beast empires of) Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, 10 kingdoms, Caliphate (founded by little horn) and finally a ‘wound-healed’ beast taken from the above mentioned.

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I have a little observation. Your dates for the Islamic Empires are 622 (Mohammed's migration) to 1922 (dissolution of the Ottoman Empire). It's possible to count this as 637 (occupation of Jerusalem) to 1918 (Jerusalem under British mandate). Could the 8th empire be Anglo-American?

Andrewn said:

I have a little observation. Your dates for the Islamic Empires are 622 (Mohammed's migration) to 1922 (dissolution of the Ottoman Empire). It's possible to count this as 637 (occupation of Jerusalem) to 1918 (Jerusalem under British mandate). Could the 8th empire be Anglo-American?

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Honestly, as much as I respect CG, this is at the very core of why Historism should be rejected. It is all opinion and speculation. You can basically make the Bible say what you want it to say. Read enough history books and you are qualified to speculate. It genuinely troubles me. It reminds me a lot of Dispensationalism trying to divide biblical time up where it doesn't exist.

Christian Gedge said:

Yes, Daniel says four ‘kingdoms,’ but Revelations says seven ‘kings.’ As you can see from my timeline (post #6) four of those kingdoms/kings are THE SAME!

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The beast of revelation 13 seems to be a conglomerate image representing all the beasts of Daniel 7. The beast of revelation contains all the animal images of Daniel 7 (lion, bear, leopard, beast). The beast of revelation also has the same number of heads and horns as all of the added together 4 beasts of Daniel 7 (7 heads and 10 horns).

Revelation 13:1-2 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

Daniel 7:3-7 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. The first was like a lion (1 head) and had eagles’ wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear (1 head). It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Arise, devour much flesh.’ After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard (4 heads), with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast (1 head), terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.


Additionally, the beast of revelation 13, as a whole, also has the same attributes as the little horn, in that it blasphemes God and persecutes the saints for a period of time, times, and half a time (42 months)


Daniel 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time.

Revelation 13:5-7 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,a that is, those who dwell in heaven. Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.

The 10 horns, along with the beast, hate the prostitute and make her desolate and naked, because God had put it in their heart to do so. So while, scripture doesn't explicitly identify the 7 heads or 10 horns by name, and us assigning any specific identification would only be speculation as result, we can actually identify the time frame in which this event occurs. How? By identifying the prostitute/Babylon the great.

Revelation 17:16-18 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

Using scripture to interpret scripture, the prostitute/Babylon the great is easily identified as 1st century Jerusalem.

1.) Revelation identifies the prostitute as the great city, which is identified as Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified

Revelation 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

2.) The prostitute is charged with righteous blood shed. This is easily identified as Jerusalem, as Jesus charges 1st century Jerusalem with all the righteous blood shed

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.


3.) Jesus' parable of the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem for killing the servants of the king leading up to all kinds of guests then being gathered into the wedding feast, is consistent with God destroying Babylon the great and avenging the blood of His servants followed by the wedding feast being ready.

Matthew 22:6-10 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Revelation 19:2, 7 for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.” Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;

Thus, while the 10 horns are never explicitly identified in scripture, and any guess would be pure speculation, they did exist at the time of 1st century Jerusalem's destruction, as they were God's tools along with the beast to make the Jerusalem desolate and naked, which resulted in the wedding feast being ready and those being invited blessed, so long as they wore the garments provided by the king. This would be consistent with there being FOUR kingdoms but the saints possessing the kingdom forever.

Daniel 7:17-18 ‘These four great beasts are four kingdoms who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Christian Gedge said:

As I understand it, the ‘Kingdom of God’ was established in the work of Christ. Daniel 2:44 says, “This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation … in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever.”

Daniel 7:26-27 is continuing on from chapter 2, but notice the words, ‘set up.’ The earlier reference is the inauguration, and the chapter 7 reference is its full expression of the kingdom. IOW, the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the saints of the Most High at the return of Christ when the last manifestation of the beast (the little horn) is destroyed.

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We are definitely in agreement that God would set up or "inaugurate" a kingdom, Which would be during the time of "those kings", which would have been at the 1st coming of Christ during the roman empire.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

Does the historicist position take the "kings" of the feet and toes of iron and clay to be different than the 10 horns of the 4th beast in Daniel 7?

Christian Gedge said:

I would put it this way: The saints inherit the (fullness) of the kingdom after the (beast empires of) Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, 10 kingdoms, Caliphate (founded by little horn) and finally a ‘wound-healed’ beast taken from the above mentioned.

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But that's too many kingdoms. Daniel was told there would only be 4 kingdoms, but that the saints would possess the kingdom forever.

Daniel 7:17-19 These four great beasts are four kingdoms who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

So this still leaves me a little confused by the Historicist position.

claninja said:

And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

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Any idea what is meant there? How does Jerusalem have dominion over the kings of the earth?

Andrewn said:

Any idea what is meant there? How does Jerusalem have dominion over the kings of the earth?

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Here's one example. Herod and Pilate are referred to as "kings of the earth"

Acts 4:25-27 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,d said by the Holy Spirit, “‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves,and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’e— for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,



In Jesus' trial we see that 1st century Jerusalem flexed its dominion over the Herod and pilate (rules and kings of the earth) to have Jesus' crucified. Even though, these "kings of the earth" found Jesus innocent, they put Him to death at the demand of the people of Jerusalem.

Luke 23:13-25 Pilate then called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people, and said to them, “You brought me this man as one who was misleading the people. And after examining him before you, behold, I did not find this man guilty of any of your charges against him. Neither did Herod, for he sent him back to us. Look, nothing deserving death has been done by him. I will therefore punish and release him.”a

But they all cried out together, “Away with this man, and release to us Barabbas”— a man who had been thrown into prison for an insurrection started in the city and for murder. Pilate addressed them once more, desiring to release Jesus, but they kept shouting, “Crucify, crucify him!” A third time he said to them, “Why? What evil has he done? I have found in him no guilt deserving death. I will therefore punish and release him.” But they were urgent, demanding with loud cries that he should be crucified. And their voices prevailed. So Pilate decided that their demand should be granted.

Christian Gedge said:

Did you look at my timeline? Did you follow how 5 ‘heads’ had fallen, 1 ‘head’ was existing (Rome) at time of Johns writing? And another ‘head’ was “yet to come?” I don’t know how to be clearer.

Before answering your other questions, can you focus on the ‘yet to come’ head, and suggest what John meant by it?

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So I would like to give a possible explanation for this. I agree with claninja on the 7 heads being represented as 1-lion, 1-bear, 4- leopard, 1-terrifying and dreadful beast.

You have the head that was existing as Rome, and the reason being is that John wrote Revelation during that time.

In Revelation 17:3 John was carried away in the spirit into the wilderness when he sees these things, so this vision isn’t necessarily occurring during the Roman Empire. The 7 heads can be viewed as a way to help determine when this vision takes place.

You specifically asked about the head that was “yet to come”. IMO since this head would continue for a short space; this would fit with Revelation 12:12 where the devil knows he has but a short time.

Christian Gedge said:

Did you look at my timeline? Did you follow how 5 ‘heads’ had fallen, 1 ‘head’ was existing (Rome) at time of Johns writing? And another ‘head’ was “yet to come?” I don’t know how to be clearer.

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It could be clearer if the angel explicitly told John who the "kings" were besides just calling them 5 have falled, 1 is, and 1 is yet to come, but only remain for a "little while"

Christian Gedge said:

Before answering your other questions, can you focus on the ‘yet to come’ head, and suggest what John meant by it?

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Revelation 17:10-11 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

I'm not sure John even knew what the vision meant. Considering scripture doesn't exactly define the 7 heads of the beast as anything other than "kings" and the anti-nicene early church writers don't seem to share a consensus on the meaning of the heads of beast, any explicit/specific identification is pure speculation.

However, we can use scripture to determine that the prostitute/babylon the great is 1st century Jerusalem. Since the 10 kings and beast are God's tool for destroying the prostitute/babylon the great, then whatever the identity of the 10 kings and 8th beast are, they were present during the 1st century.

This would be consistent with there being only 4 kingdoms, but the saints would possess the kingdom forever (daniel 7:17-18).

Christian Gedge said:

Most commentaries (Ellicott, Matthew Henry, Barnes etc) consider the 7 heads to mean great world kingdoms.

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I would agree that the majority of more recent commentaries believe the heads to be kigndoms. 5 of the 9 commentaries from Biblehub seem to believe that the 7 heads are kingdoms. However, even between these 5 commentaries there are differences. Still seems to be a lot of speculation.

1.) Elicott seems to agree that they are 7 kingdoms starting with Assyria
they represented the then great world-power Babylon, and its three successors, Persia, Greece, and Rome. This is a guide to us here, as most commentators admit; but two great world-powers had preceded Babylon, viz., Egypt and Assyria: these figure in the ancient prophecies as forces hostile to the righteous King

2.) Matthew Henry seems to kind of agree, but he makes the 8th king the Papacy

This beast, directed by the papacy, makes an eighth governor, and sets up idolatry again.

3.) Jamieson Fausset seems to agree on the kings being kingdoms starting with Assyria

Egypt, Eze 29:1-30:26; Assyria and Nineveh, Na 3:1-19; Babylon, Re 18:2; Jer 50:1-51:64; Medo-Persia, Da 8:3-7, 20-22; 10:13; 11:2; Greece, Da 11:4). Rome was "the one" existing in John's days

4.) Matthew Poole believes the head were seven governments that ruled Rome

the seven heads do not only signify seven hills or mountains, but also seven kings, that is, (according to the best interpretation I meet with), seven forms of government which ruled Rome

5.) Gills seems to believe it is 7 popes

it is better, therefore, to understand this of the popes of Rome, the seventh and last head of the Roman empire; these were not yet come, in John's time, to their supreme dignity and authority


6.) Geneva puts them as individual kings of Rome

In this year it came to pass by the providence of God, that that saying The beast was, and is not was fulfilled before the destruction of the Jews immediately following, came to pass. That was 809 years from the building of the city of Rome at which time John counted the emperors who had been, when he wrote these things, and foretells two others next to come: and with this purpose, that when this particular prediction of things to come should take effect, the truth of all other predictions in the Church, might be the more confirmed. God in ancient times mentioned this sign in the Law and Jeremiah confirmed it in De 18:1-22, Jer 28:8.

(19) Whose names are these: the first, Servius Sulpitius Galba, who was the seventh emperor of the people of Rome, the second Marcus Salvius Otho, the third Avlus Vitellius, the fourth, Titus Flavius Vespasianus, the fifth, Titus Vespasianus his son, of his own name.


7.) Cambridge seems to lean towards of individual kings of rome but is unsure of the identities

It remains then that the kings be taken as individual Emperors of Rome: (it must be remembered that though these were never called “kings” in Latin, the Greek equivalent title was constantly applied to the Emperors: see e.g. 1 Peter 2:13; 1 Peter 2:17.) Who then were the first seven Emperors?

8.) Pulpit commentary states those that believe they are 7 specific kingdoms are only partially right, but wrong in their attempt to specifically define them.

those writers who enumerate Egypt, Nineveh, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Syria, etc., in the first group, are partially correct, and only wrong in so far as they attempt to limit and define the kingdoms;

9.) Bengel's doesn't seem to mention whether they are kings or kingdoms.

Christian Gedge said:

No, the 10 toes and the 10 horns are related visions.

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Ok, so we seem to agree here.

Christian Gedge said:

"Too many kingdoms" for those who wish to delineate between kings/kingdoms in a very literalistic fashion. I treat the 'beasts' as major empires, and the 'horns' as smaller kingdoms.

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So like how the Greek empire was split into 4 smaller kingdoms: Lysimachus, Cassander,Ptolemy and Seleucus.

However, these smaller kingdoms were still considered to be the kingdoms of greeks.

1 Maccabees 1:10 From them came forth a sinful root, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus; he had been a hostage in Rome. He began to reign in the one hundred thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks

Are the smaller 10 "kingdoms" that come from Rome, still considered roman in order to be consistent with scripture?

Christian Gedge said:

Historicism sees prophecy as gradually unfolding throughout the Church age. Its position is somewhere between Partial Preterism and Futurism.

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How does historicism treat the prostitute/Babylon the great, which has clear ties to 1st century Jerusalem?

Christian Gedge said:

Hmm. I must remember not to have a vision next time I go tramping.

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Perhaps I should have explained the possible interpretation a little better.

In Revelation 17:6 John wondered with great admiration about the woman. In verse 7 the angel states that he is going to tell John the mystery of the woman and the beast with 7 heads and ten horns. I view the rest of the chapter as the angel giving that explanation. The reason being is that John doesn’t understand what he is seeing.

Christian Gedge said:

John, during the Roman era, has one beast but with 7 ‘heads’. “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains … they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is.” (Revelation 17:9-10) In John’s case he starts with an earlier world power (5 have fallen), and his “one is” refers to the empire in existence as he speaks.

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I’m not sure if you think John himself is making the statements in verses 9 to 10. But in verse 12 it clearly is the angel speaking because it states “and the 10 horns which thou sawest”. If you do think it’s John could you give a reason for that?

The reason I think this is important is there does remain the possibility that the angel is giving a time reference as to when this vision is depicting the woman sit upon the beast. The word sit <2521> can mean to sit down, and also to remain or reside. If this word is interpreted as when the woman actually takes the seat on the beast then it is at the same time that there are 5 fallen heads, 1 that is, and 1 that is to come.

I’m not necessarily looking for a response, just wanted to explain my thoughts about this possibility a little clearer.