The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

nolidad

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"He is the at-one-ment for our sins & NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the whole world."

Our word for today is hilasmos.

Hilasmos = atonement

Jesus Christ IS the atonement for our sins & the atonement for the whole ungodly world.

And that is why no one goes to the lake of fire for their sins! They spend eternity in the lake of fire for rejecting the one who paid for their sins!

John 3:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now look closely--- those who do not believe in Jesus will not see life, it sdoesn't say they won't see it until or unless but will not, PERIOD! No Zoe for unbelievers!

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
 
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nolidad

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I can play that game too.

So then you reject as inspired verses like this? Where does that leave us?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

And I agree 100% with all those verses.

Jesus didn't die for just some peoples sins- but for everyones! Thiat made Jesus the only Savior! As Peter said in Acts 4 there is no other name given to men by which they must be saved.

But you forget that in order for "all" to be saved, they must accept Jesus in this life! See it isn't either /or but both/and!

Jesus death is enough to save the whole world, but it comes with a condition- one must believe on HIm! that is taking the counsel of the whole world!

You task is now to show from Sacred Scripture why this verse becomes invalid:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Judgment here is KRISIS:

    1. a separating, sundering, separation
      1. a trial, contest
    2. selection

    3. judgment
      1. opinion or decision given concerning anything
        1. esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
      2. sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment
    4. the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)

    5. right, justice
 
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nolidad

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It already happened in the three days between the crucifixion and the resurrection.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,
he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago
when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,
so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body,
but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Once again you look at the Scriptures out of their context.

First- the grave is also known as the nether world and prior to Jesus' ascension had three compartments biblically named:

1. The place of torments hell/hades/sheol--where the lost dead went (like the rich man in the account of Lazarus) this included the lost of Israel and all Gentiles who were unconverted to Judaism.

2. Tartarus- the place where the angels who fell in Genesis 6 are confined with everlsating (aidios) chains awaiting judgment.

3. Abrahams bosom/paradise. The place where the righteous dead went because Jesus had no t yet shed his blood! Remember the blood of bulls and goats only covered, not removed sins! So when Jesus died and went to the underworld , he went to paradise (where He promised the penitent thief He would meet HIm that day) and gave them the good news that they were going to be set free and ascend witih HIm to heaven!
 
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FineLinen

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Verse 16 says whover- only a possibility.

Verse 17 is might be saved. Verb is subjunctive and is only a possibility.

Dear younger Noli: Nope, not a possibility! My friend Hillsage should help to clarify such a ghastly idea.

JOHN 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

"MIGHT" or "MAY"

I asked my friend, Dr. Michael Jones, a Hebrew and Greek scholar, what he thought of “might” in John 3:17. Here is a man that only reads the New Testament in the Greek language. In fact, he teaches N.T. Greek. He explained to me in a very simple way: Using “might” in John 3:17 is not good translating.

The force of the subjunctive here is not like a maybe, or a might. That is why many translators leave “might” out, i.e., to keep the English-only reader from getting confused. The subjunctive can be a might, i.e., a possibility–a maybe–a might, and yet, it can also emphasize a statement of fact better than the indicative mood/mode.

So, let me illustrate this in English: If a translator gave us a transport from a form critical method of translation theory, he might write: “Bob hit the ball over the fence so that he might have a home-run”. But a translator using a dynamic equivalent model of translation theory might write it like this: “Bob hit the ball over the fence to get a home-run.”

Note that the subjunctive is there, but difficult to see in English.”

You also proved you still don't know what universalism believes. PROVE your comment below from your last post, "John 3:16 doesn't have anything to do with Universalism. That's the problem. Universalism is against John 3:16, not the other way around.
John 3:16 says nothing about Universalism. The two are incompatible."

WHO is saying that. That's certainly not what I believe. Everyone WILL believe because that a confession is what it takes to make Jesus the savior to every individual.

ACT 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

PHI 2:10 that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and EVERY TONGUE confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You are just believing wrongly as to WHEN you think they have to believe. You and the nominal church think it's 'this age' only. And you're also proving the church doesn't even know what Joh 3:16 is saying either.

YLT JOH 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son - the only begotten - He gave, that every one who is believING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The God LIFE that's available in this age is immortality. And if you sin then you aren't believing your LORD Jesus because a man DOES WHAT HE IS BELIEVING. So if you're still sinning as a Christian, then your body is going to die and return to the dust from whence it came....IOW NO IMMORTALITY and to HADES/GRAVE your body goes. To await a judgment of purgative fire for all those sins you did still commit after confessing Jesus was YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR in THIS AGE.

Well, you got the SAVIOR part right But Jesus sure as HADES isn't the LORD you're listening to if you still sin in this age since you got "saved", with your sinners prayer. But His plan for you, me and ALL doesn't end with this age, or the age to come. According Eph there were at least TWO ages to follow when Ephesians was written;

EPH 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace...

Who is HE going to SHEW this SAVING GRACE to, in the ages to come? You're already SAVED right? This is a good time to put your thinking cap on.
 
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FineLinen

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What is the meaning of propitiation?

What it is not = the appeasing of an angry deity.

Our word for today is hilaskomai.

The ghastly idea of propitiating an angry deity was used by the Greeks in making the gods propitious & something to be earned first. It is foreign in the N.T. & Septuagint Scriptures!

Hilaskomai actually means reconciliation, a covering as in the words kaphar & kopher, IOW our Father Abba’s Mercy Seat.

His love & grace reaching out to enfold us into Himself.

“He is the at-one-ment for our sins & NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the whole world.”

Hilasmos = atonement

We have a Priest-Friend in the Presence of Abba. He has solved the sin problem for good, not only ours, but the sins of the whole/pas world.

Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos!
 
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mmksparbud

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Correct. Now apply the principle here.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

It was for all people---but not all people will believe4, repent, bre baptized and follow Christ. Or did you not notice the change from all to many. Many is not all.
 
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FineLinen

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It was for all people---but not all people will believe4, repent, bre baptized and follow Christ. Or did you not notice the change from all to many. Many is not all.

Dear lady: Many is indeed not all! Many = polus, all = pas.

Now for the God equation.

Adam1 = "many made sinners."

Last Adam = "many made righteous."

All = all >>>many = many >>>polus =polus
 
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mmksparbud

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Dear lady: Many is indeed not all! Many = polus, all = pas.

Now for the God equation.

Adam1 = "many made sinners."

Last Adam = "many made righteous."

All = all >>>many = many >>>polus =polus


It means not all.
 
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DNB

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Dear DNB: "The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance". The Lord moves in the mighty cross to obliterate us, to take us from what we once were to live in a new dimension of faith"
And how, exactly, is this achieved?

Jesus was the final sacrifice, in order to end the obligatory Covenental Law (Levitical), that held all men in bondage, and condemned.
Jesus first fulfilled the Law, and since Life is in the blood, his perfect blood put to death (abrogated) the binding Mosaic Law. Permitting now, the Law of Faith to be instituted.
 
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DNB

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God has ALLOWED all this under his sovereign rule. The only thing worse than everything you have listed is a being who would throw these perpetrators into endless torment for all eternity. Monstrous.

And seriously, eternal torment for agnosticism? Wow.
Looks like we'll all be in the hot tub.
Do you think that it's a small issue to deny the existence of God, who created them and who's image is inside every single one of us, which Paul said that they are without excuse? I would say that it's worse than murder. (Moses killed the Egyptian).
 
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FineLinen

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It means not all.

Yup!

Many is indeed not all! Many = polus, all = pas.

Now for the God equation.

Adam1 = "many made sinners."

Last Adam = "many made righteous."

All = all >>>many = many >>>polus =polus
 
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FineLinen

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Do you think that it's a small issue to deny the existence of God, who created them and who's image is inside every single one of us, which Paul said that they are without excuse? I would say that it's worse than murder. (Moses killed the Egyptian).

Dear DNB: I would say if you violate the Law of the Lord in one single point, you are guilty of all!

James 2:10 Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

You do well when you complete the Royal Rule of the Scriptures: “Love others as you love yourself.” But if you play up to these so-called important people, you go against the Rule and stand convicted by it. You can’t pick and choose in these things, specializing in keeping one or two things in God’s law and ignoring others. The same God who said, “Don’t commit adultery,” also said, “Don’t murder.” If you don’t commit adultery but go ahead and murder, do you think your non-adultery will cancel out your murder? No, you’re a murderer, period. -The Message-
 
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mmksparbud

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Yup!

Many is indeed not all! Many = polus, all = pas.

Now for the God equation.

Adam1 = "many made sinners."

Last Adam = "many made righteous."

All = all >>>many = many >>>polus =polus


=not all. Again where is the verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto eternal life with Christ?
 
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FineLinen

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=not all. Again where is the verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto eternal life with Christ?

Dear Lady: Pas = the radical all. Polus = many. Both sides of the God equation are identical whether it is polus or pas or tis/some.

Adam1= many made sinners>>>Last Adam= many made righteous.

There is no Scripture that states anyone comes out of the Lake of Theos radiating with theion and theioo.

There is also no Scripture that anyone comes out of our God the consuming fire.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So you believe that God doesn't need to draw us to him by his Spirit? (John 6:44; John 6:65)

Saint Steven said:
What if it is not us, but rather God, who decides when we get saved? Can we come to God if the Spirit does not draw us?

Yes we can come to God because after Christ’s crucifixion He will draw all men to Him. Not all will come but all are called.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Dear G.G.: The link was not my work but from Dr. Wm. Barclay (I think). He is correct regarding the scope of ta pante! It reaches beyond pas, the radical all, to "the all". Both words in koine leave zero room for anything short of total return of all to Abba: ALL!

I see nothing in the sacred writings that remotely indicate becoming "better and better". I do behold darkness covering the earth & gross darkness the people until radical interruption by our God who as the Author & Perfecter completes what He began.
Hi FL,,,
I also find nothing in scripture that even alludes to man becoming better in his nature. Man has always had a fallen nature and always will.

We become more technological and more aware of ourselves in some ways...but our nature is the same as it was 5,000 years ago.

This is something that used to be taught by the CC and I can't even remember where they got this idea...maybe from nowhere.

I'm still confused by what TA PANTE means and what the RADICAL ALL means.
New concept for me...but we do have much to learn, don't we?

Thanks for your reply.
 
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DNB

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Dear DNB: I would say if you violate the Law of the Lord in one single point, you are guilty of all!

James 2:10 Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

You do well when you complete the Royal Rule of the Scriptures: “Love others as you love yourself.” But if you play up to these so-called important people, you go against the Rule and stand convicted by it. You can’t pick and choose in these things, specializing in keeping one or two things in God’s law and ignoring others. The same God who said, “Don’t commit adultery,” also said, “Don’t murder.” If you don’t commit adultery but go ahead and murder, do you think your non-adultery will cancel out your murder? No, you’re a murderer, period. -The Message-
That's one context. But in another context, there are degrees of sin. Some of the Levitical Laws had a penalty of capital punishment, while others didn't. God said, that some of the atrocities that the Israelites committed, were worse than those committed by the people that he expelled from the land, nor could he even fathom that they would do such a thing.
He who sins against God or the Son will be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit. There are different degrees of sin.
Those who deny God, defy the very principle that we were put here for, to search him out and love him with all our hearts.
 
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FineLinen

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Yes we can come to God because after Christ’s crucifixion He will draw all men to Him. Not all will come but all are called.

iu



Dear BNR: The entire radical pas WILL come, every last broken and bruised sinner.

Your word for today as you head into your closet = helkuo

I will draw/ drag off in power/impel all unto Me!
 
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FineLinen

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That's one context.

Dear DNB: Indeed it is, and a very powerful context.

Our Abba sees the darkness in every heart, in every degree of thanatos, in all dimensions of sin.

The Unlimited One changes every sinner, from >>> to.
 
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