Daniel's 70th week

mkgal1

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You don't have to answer it if you're not willing....

Matthew 24:30..."Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they "see " the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory...
There was a visual sign (the destruction of the Temple) but this also says "the Son of Man in heaven". This is Jesus - in the heavenly realm - seated in the place of power. Look at how Jesus' words are recorded here (can one literally sit at the right hand of God AND come to earth at the same time? The text says nothing about physically coming to earth - that's a presumption you're imposing on the passage):

Mark 14:62 -
Jesus said, “ I Am . And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
 
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mkgal1

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490 years prophecy is divided into two blocks of years....(483yrs or 69 weeks ) Daniel 9:25...

Last 7yrs or 1 week. ...Daniel 9:27

Between those two blocks are the the church age to the Gentiles and we are in it now....
Where else in Scripture is time divided? By placing the seven years off in the future - you're placing Jesus' first Advent and the Cross in the future as well. This period of time was when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist; His 3.5 year ministry; and His crucifixion and ascencion to heaven (27 AD - 34 AD).
 
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sovereigngrace

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There was a visual sign (the destruction of the Temple) but this also says "the Son of Man in heaven". This is Jesus - in the heavenly realm - seated in the place of power. Look at how Jesus' words are recorded here (can one literally sit at the right hand of God AND come to earth at the same time? The text says nothing about physically coming to earth - that's a presumption you're imposing on the passage):

Mark 14:62 -
Jesus said, “ I Am . And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The opposite is the truth! The text you quote, and the similar passages below, depict a very vivid picture of the climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ at the end, and make absolutely no mention of Titus, the temple destruction or AD70. Sadly, your fixation with Titus and AD70 causes you to miss what Jesus is actually speaking about.

Acts 1:11: “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return.

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

Physically: “This same Jesus.”
Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to Pretrib and Preterist beliefs, the second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him (Revelation 1:7).

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talks much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid!. It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

This secret is only in regards the time of His coming, not the reality of it.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

The scriptural references to Christ coming as a “thief in the night” simply refers to the unexpectedness or suddenness of that event and not to its secretiveness.

The only thing secret about the rapture is its date – it is classified. Jesus said in Mark 13:32-33, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.”
 
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mkgal1

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Contrary to Pretrib and Preterist beliefs, the second coming of Christ is not a secret event.
I'm not discussing the "second coming of Christ". Why are you confusing the topic? We're discussing Matthew 24 - the parousia - of 66-70 AD. Jesus "coming in His power and glory". This event was far from "secret".
 
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sovereigngrace

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I'm not discussing the "second coming of Christ". Why are you confusing the topic? We're discussing Matthew 24 - the parousia - of 66-70 AD. Jesus "coming in His power and glory". This event was far from "secret".

The passage under discussion relates to the literal visible future second coming (parousia) of Christ. Once again you dodge a rebut and various Scriptures that forbid Preterism.
 
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mkgal1

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The opposite is the truth!
I posted "This is Jesus - in the heavenly realm - seated in the place of power" and you're saying "the opposite is truth" to that?

Mark 14:62 - Jesus said, “ I Am . And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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I posted "This is Jesus - in the heavenly realm - seated in the place of power" and you're saying "the opposite is truth" to that?

Mark 14:62 - Jesus said, “ I Am . And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

This is Him coming from heaven, not staying in heaven (as you claim), as you can see by the wording.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I posted "This is Jesus - in the heavenly realm - seated in the place of power" and you're saying "the opposite is truth" to that?

Mark 14:62 - Jesus said, “ I Am . And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

You said:

There was a visual sign (the destruction of the Temple) but this also says "the Son of Man in heaven". This is Jesus - in the heavenly realm - seated in the place of power. Look at how Jesus' words are recorded here (can one literally sit at the right hand of God AND come to earth at the same time? The text says nothing about physically coming to earth - that's a presumption you're imposing on the passage):

He is not staying in heaven, He is coming from heaven. BIG difference!
 
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mkgal1

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The passage under discussion relates to the literal visible future second coming (parousia) of Christ. Once again you dodge a rebut and various Scriptures that forbid Preterism.
No, Matthew 24 doesn't relate to that. You're cobbling together your own story by taking unrelated verses and cutting and pasting them together. Jesus Himself informed His followers that what He was referring to - recorded in Matthew 24 - was not a visual return of His physical body:

Matthew 24:26 - if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No, Matthew 24 doesn't relate to that. You're cobbling together your own story by taking unrelated verses and cutting and pasting them together. Jesus Himself informed His followers that what He was referring to - recorded in Matthew 24 - was not a visual return of His physical body:

Matthew 24:26 - if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

It is wrong to spiritualize away every single second coming passage. Please tell us:
  1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
  2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
  3. Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?
  4. Tell us exactly what all happens at this coming?
 
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mkgal1

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You said:



He is not staying in heaven, He is coming from heaven. BIG difference!
You aren't getting that from the Scriptural text of Matthew 24 or Mark 14:62 (which is what we're discussing).
 
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sovereigngrace

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You aren't getting that from the Scriptural text of Matthew 24.

Why are you constantly avoiding these basic simple fundamental questions that every Christian is happy to answer?

There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically, visibly and audibly?

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning (Matthew 24:27)? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret or figurative appearance in this text.

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?
 
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mkgal1

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I posted "This is Jesus - in the heavenly realm - seated in the place of power" and you're saying "the opposite is truth" to that?

Mark 14:62 - Jesus said, “ I Am . And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

This is Him coming from heaven, not staying in heaven (as you claim), as you can see by the wording.
It's clear from your responses that you aren't reading posts (including the Scriptures being posted) and are merely firing off your beliefs (that aren't actually supported by Scripture) as your response. This results in a completely disconnected conversation. It reminds me of a talking doll I had when I was young. She had about 5 possible phrases she would say when her string was pulled.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It's clear from your responses that you aren't reading posts (including the Scriptures being posted) and are merely firing off your beliefs (that aren't actually supported by Scripture). This results in a completely disconnected conversation. It reminds me of a talking doll I had when I was young. She had about 5 phrases she would say when he string was pulled.

It is you that is avoiding post after post, Scripture after Scripture and point after point. Obviously you have no answers or you would be happy to respond. I refer you back to my previous posts that stand unaddressed and unchallenged.

There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically, visibly and audibly?

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning (Matthew 24:27)? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret or figurative appearance in this text.

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?
 
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mkgal1

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You said:



He is not staying in heaven, He is coming from heaven. BIG difference!
Jesus is God. God is omnipresent. That was the point of His first Advent - to demonstrate that. You've accused me (post #553) of overlooking His first Advent, but your responses seem to show that you're minimizing the significance of His FIRST appearance. Even the apostate religious leaders recognized that Jesus' followers were turning the world upside down in teaching what Jesus had done:

Acts 17:6 - But when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city officials, shouting, “These men who have turned the world upside down have now come here,
 
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sovereigngrace

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Jesus is God. God is omnipresent. That was the point of His first Advent - to demonstrate that. You've accused me (post #553) of overlooking His first Advent, but your responses seem to show that you're minimizing the significance of His FIRST appearance. Even the apostate religious leaders recognized that Jesus' followers were turning the world upside down in teaching what Jesus had done:

Acts 17:6 - But when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city officials, shouting, “These men who have turned the world upside down have now come here,

How have I done that? His First Advent, including His sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrection, are central to everything I believe and write. How do you come to such a mistaken deduction? You need evidence when you make these sweeping statements. It is Preterism that takes countless passages relating to the First and Second Advents and relates them to the coming of Titus in AD70.

Please tell us:
  1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
  2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
  3. Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?
  4. Tell us exactly what all happens at this coming?
 
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Al Touthentop

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You don't have to answer it if you're not willing....

Matthew 24:30..."Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they "see " the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory...

Answer what? This is figurative language. The fact that he uses the term "on the clouds of heaven" means that he is being figurative not literal. And he says in the next few verses that ALL of the things he's spoken will happen before many of them die. This passage included. It's up to you to believe what he said instead of arguing with him.
 
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pasifika

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Where else in Scripture is time divided? By placing the seven years off in the future - you're placing Jesus' first Advent and the Cross in the future as well. This period of time was when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist; His 3.5 year ministry; and His crucifixion and ascencion to heaven (27 AD - 34 AD).
If you read Daniel 9:25-27 you will see it..
First block: Daniel 9:25...Know and understand this: FROM the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem UNTIL the Annointed One, the ruler comes, there will be seven sevens and sixty two seven.... (7+62=69weeks)..

Between the two blocks (years)...

Daniel 9:26...After the sixty two sevens, the Annointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come and destroy the city and sanctuary....AD 70 event....
The end will come like a flood: war will continue UNTIL the end (last 7years)

Second block: Daniel 9 :27...he will confirm "a" covenant for many for one seven In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering and at the temple he will set up the Abomination that causes desolation, UNTIL the end that is decreed is poured out on it....
Matthew 24:15...

This is future event (Daniel 9:27) leading to the coming of Christ....
 
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pasifika

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Answer what? This is figurative language. The fact that he uses the term "on the clouds of heaven" means that he is being figurative not literal. And he says in the next few verses that ALL of the things he's spoken will happen before many of them die. This passage included. It's up to you to believe what he said instead of arguing with him.
I mean you don't have to provide Josephus testimony regarding Christ coming in AD 70..post #591

Is the "clouds" not a literal thing... you don't think Christ cannot come on the literal clouds of heaven??

Happen before this generation...we are in the same generation up until His coming...
 
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sovereigngrace

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Answer what? This is figurative language. The fact that he uses the term "on the clouds of heaven" means that he is being figurative not literal. And he says in the next few verses that ALL of the things he's spoken will happen before many of them die. This passage included. It's up to you to believe what he said instead of arguing with him.

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?
 
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