The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Saint Steven

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Where does that say that anyone comes out of the lake of fire into eternal life? Yes, Jesus died for all---for all who believe in Him and are baptized and walk in His ways.
What part of "everyone" and "all" don't you understand?

Saint Steven said:
No. It seems that he left that task for the Apostles.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
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Saint Steven

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Probably the most remarkable thing here is that you think I have a twisted mindset.
It seems you have no problem with anyone suffering for all eternity.

Saint Steven said:
All creation will be restored. Is Satan a created being?
 
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Saint Steven

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So then you reject as inspired verses like this?
I can play that game too.

So then you reject as inspired verses like this? Where does that leave us?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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Saint Steven

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Now all you and fine linen and the others here who hold to universalism or destructionism or whatever is provide SCriptures that show that after death there is repentance available to a lost sinner.
It already happened in the three days between the crucifixion and the resurrection.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,
he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago
when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,
so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body,
but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
 
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Saint Steven

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Once again if aionios means only for a unspecific but limited time for those suffwering in the lake of fire- it has to mean the same who have life after human time for it also is rendered in the same greek contruct.
Again, I agree with that.
Fortunately, one age follows the previous one.
 
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mmksparbud

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What part of "everyone" and "all" don't you understand?

Saint Steven said:
No. It seems that he left that task for the Apostles.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The word all is dependent on what group is being spoken of. It can mean all the chickens in the pen, all the bulls in the pasture all the boys in the choir.

Yes---all those that believe and are baptized and walk with Jesus.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.
 
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DNB

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Probably the most remarkable thing here is that you think I have a twisted mindset.
It seems you have no problem with anyone suffering for all eternity.

Saint Steven said:
All creation will be restored. Is Satan a created being?
Not twisted, but naive. I don't think any of you universalists understand the gravity of wickedness, idolatry, satanism, murder, hatred, atheism, agnosticism, paganism, anti-christ, etc...
This is my point, you clearly do not appreciate the ramifications of these acts and how that there is no room for mercy. They all chose to hate God, their creator.
 
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FineLinen

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Not twisted, but naive. I don't think any of you universalists understand the gravity of wickedness, idolatry, satanism, murder, hatred, atheism, agnosticism, paganism, anti-christ, etc...
This is my point, you clearly do not appreciate the ramifications of these acts and how that there is no room for mercy. They all chose to hate God, their creator.

My dear boy: Those are a lot of nasty things to not be understood. The ultimate way our glorious Abba meets each and every one is by way of the cleansing Fire of Himself. Nothing stands in His Presence unchanged, everybody & everything must be radically transformed!

Radically!


"God loves you unconditionally, as you are and not as you should be, because nobody is as they should be." -Brennan Manning
 
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DNB

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My dear boy: Those are a lot of nasty things to not be understood. The ultimate way our glorious Abba meets each and every one is by way of the cleansing Fire of Himself. Nothing stands in His Presence unchanged, everybody & everything must be radically transformed!

Radically!


"God loves you unconditionally, as you are and not as you should be, because nobody is as they should be." -Brennan Manning
Nope, you have an unbiblical understanding of who God is. Things are obliterated in his presence, not transformed. No man has seen God without dying, this was the adage throughout the millennia. You are very wrong about God's transcendence and majesty. Moses had to cover his face due to the shekhina glory upon it. Man cannot stand within God's presence, unless God allows and transforms him. Point being, by default, man is consumed in his presence, thus, God must be propitiated in order to alter this fundamental axiom.
 
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mmksparbud

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My dear boy: Those are a lot of nasty things to not be understood. The ultimate way our glorious Abba meets each and every one is by way of the cleansing Fire of Himself. Nothing stands in His Presence unchanged, everybody & everything must be radically transformed!

Radically!


"God loves you unconditionally, as you are and not as you should be, because nobody is as they should be." -Brennan Manning

As stated above by DNB. This is why no one in the lake of fire can be saved, they will end up destroyed---dust. God is a consuming fire and the wicked prove their inalterable evil hearts when they try to take the city by force. They are judged and sentenced and the fire of God destroys them.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is that fire---without the protection of the transforming blood of Christ no one can see God and live. God unveils Himself to all. The 1st resurrection is of the saved, they reign with Christ for 1000 years God is unveiled to them at this time. They come down from heaven in the city with God. The wicked are resurrected, that is the resurrection of the damned. They are judged and they face God without the blood of Jesus---the wicked try to take by force what they could have had for free, they want access to the Tree of Life and water if Life which the saved get back at the first resurrection. They can not have that access and live forever as the unchanged, horrible sinners they are. They are consumed in the lake of fire.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

There is no coming out of the lake of fire, everything will be ashes and the earth will be remade over those ashes.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 
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FineLinen

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Nope, you have an unbiblical understanding of who God is. Things are obliterated in his presence, not transformed. No man has seen God without dying, this was the adage throughout the millennia. You are very wrong about God's transcendence and majesty. Moses had to cover his face due to the shekhina glory upon it. Man cannot stand within God's presence, unless God allows transforms him. Point being, by default, man is consumed in his presence, thus, God must be propitiated in order to alter this fundamental axiom.

Dear DNB: "The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance". The Lord moves in the mighty cross to obliterate us, to take us from what we once were to live in a new dimension of faith, not our puny idea of faih, "the faith of the Son of God."

Our word for today is hilaskomai.

Your ghastly idea of propitiating an angry Deity was used by the Greeks in making the gods propitious & something to be earned first. It is foreign in the N.T. & Septuagint Scriptures!

Hilaskomai actually means reconciliation, a covering as in the words kaphar & kopher, IOW our Father Abba's Mercy Seat.

His love & grace reaching out to enfold us in Himself.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear DNB: "The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance". The Lord moves in the mighty cross to obliterate us, to take us from what we once were to live in a new dimension of faith, not our puny idea of faih, "the faith of the Son of God."

Our word for today is hilaskomai.

Your ghastly idea of propitiating an angry Deity was used by the Greeks in making the gods propitious & something to be earned first. It is foreign in the N.T. & Septuagint Scriptures!

Hilaskomai actually means reconciliation, a covering as in the words kaphar & kopher, IOW our Father Abba's Mercy Seat.

His love & grace reaching out to enfold us in Himself.

"He is the at-one-ment for our sins & NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the whole world."

Our word for today is hilasmos.

Hilasmos = atonement

We have a Priest-Friend in the Presence of Abba. He has solved the sin problem for good, not only ours, but the sins of the whole/pas world.

Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos!
 
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Saint Steven

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Not twisted, but naive. I don't think any of you universalists understand the gravity of wickedness, idolatry, satanism, murder, hatred, atheism, agnosticism, paganism, anti-christ, etc...
This is my point, you clearly do not appreciate the ramifications of these acts and how that there is no room for mercy. They all chose to hate God, their creator.
God has ALLOWED all this under his sovereign rule. The only thing worse than everything you have listed is a being who would throw these perpetrators into endless torment for all eternity. Monstrous.

And seriously, eternal torment for agnosticism? Wow.
Looks like we'll all be in the hot tub.
 
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Saint Steven

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The word all is dependent on what group is being spoken of.
Correct. Now apply the principle here.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Charlie24

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Correct. Now apply the principle here.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Warning: damnationalist spotted in the area.

I'm so happy the Lord gave me a heart that can't ignore His Word.

And a mind that can see His mercy and grace extended to all.

For narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few there be that find it.
 
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Dear DNB: "The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance". The Lord moves in the mighty cross to obliterate us, to take us from what we once were to live in a new dimension of faith, not our puny idea of faih, "the faith of the Son of God."

Our word for today is hilaskomai.

Your ghastly idea of propitiating an angry Deity was used by the Greeks in making the gods propitious & something to be earned first. It is foreign in the N.T. & Septuagint Scriptures!

Hilaskomai actually means reconciliation, a covering as in the words kaphar & kopher, IOW our Father Abba's Mercy Seat.

His love & grace reaching out to enfold us in Himself.

"He is the at-one-ment for our sins & NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the whole world."

Our word for today is hilasmos.

Hilasmos = atonement

Jesus Christ IS the atonement for our sins & the atonement for the whole ungodly world.
 
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nolidad

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Dear young Noli: Why should any individual reject such a wonderful declaration? ?

Verse 16 is followed by verse 17, both inspired utterances!


"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

Yes they are both inspired.

Maybe you should look harder and study to show yourself approved!

Verse 16 says whover- only a possibility.

Verse 17 is might be saved. Verb is subjunctive and is only a possibility.

Verse 18 is inspired as well and says he who believe not is condemned already!

But you forget all are born condemned. Jesus came to bring salvation! Condemnation was already present in every human! So Jesus offers a way out!

Thank you for calling me young! Being 65 1/2 that is a finie compliment!
 
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nolidad

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Repeat

There is no such animal as aidios ktisis. There is aionios zoe and aionios kolasis/punishment but zero aidios ktisis!

And there is no aidios Zoe either! Only aionios zoe! You are hoisted by your own petard!

But as aidios appears only 2X in the NT let us look at both instances!

Romans 1:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Gods power is aidios!

Jude:
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The chains of the angels who left heaven in Genesis 6 , their chains are aidios!

So we have eternal power and eternal chains till judgment!

You should recognize that aidios and aionios are two words that are synonymous! Just like in English words like forever, everlasting, eternal, neverending etc. are different words that mean the same thing!
 
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nolidad

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Do you know there are those among our species who have never seen anything in any dimension of glorious colour? Everything is only in black & white. Our Abba lives in incredible dimensions of glory. Try on your new glasses and behold what you see when your scope has changed.

Well as Gods Word says we still only see through a glass darkly and removed only in eternity, I suspect a cultic mindset that says you have special sight! So don't Mormons, Jw's, Christian SCientists, Children of God, COBU, and many others!

The rest of us believers, we just rely on the Inspired Word of God! But tell me as you see clearly like Paul did when he was caught up into the 3rd heaven and saw things humans normally don't, are you suffering the same torments Paul does????
 
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nolidad

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So you believe that God doesn't need to draw us to him by his Spirit? (John 6:44; John 6:65)

Saint Steven said:
What if it is not us, but rather God, who decides when we get saved? Can we come to God if the Spirit does not draw us?

Careful now!!! YOu are beginning to sound like us damnationists!^_^:wave::angel:
 
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