I have trouble reading much of the old testament

1213 · Feb 10, 2020

Jamdoc said:
...but the first thought to me is always that young children are innocent ....

I don’t think that is a bad thought. And if they are truly innocent, I believe they are with God.

Jamdoc · Feb 10, 2020

DNB said:
Agreed, and that's a common sentiment by millions of people, the dichotomy of attributes that God reveals about himself, between the two Testaments. Atheists like to point this out in order to undermine the soundness of Christian theology. And many have either rejected the Old Testament as a whole (Marcion), or have created a completely different religion to resolve such a conflict (gnostics).
Just saying, your regard for both Testaments is not uncommon or absurd.

But, to me, it's like Paul said, the OT was a schoolmaster, defining for us the wages of sin, and the demands of righteousness, and what everybody truly deserves. The patience that God has shown towards the 'fortunate', either individually or the era, is nothing but mercy and grace, not the norm.
Maybe Jamdoc, if you were to reflect for a moment exactly how much you love God and revere Jesus, you may begin to appreciate what we all truly deserve.
I know for sure, that my love for God and for Jesus is pathetic, ungrateful, defiant and contemptuous. And I do not believe that we have a fallen nature.
He should, strike me down right now, that's all I deserve!

To me it's more like, in the old testament I learn to fear God, for his judgement of our sins, even to the point of Him almost seeming callous at times. But it's hard to love God based on the threat of what He can do to you and His power. My love for God is not based on His being able to create us and display awesome power and punish us severely, that's the basis of my fear of Him. Even though the OT does tell you that God is slow to anger, and merciful (Exodus 34:6), the focus at least in Exodus-Joshua, is the reason to fear the Lord, because the Lord does a lot of killing or commands a lot of killing in those books. I would fear God without Him doing things that were good for the Israelites, purely based on His power. It would be hard to love Him though, you could fear an abusive father, but it can be hard to love Him.
But while Jesus tells you that God still does all of this punishment and severeness, so you still have just as much reason to fear Him, he displays more compassion, more forgiveness, more goodness, reasons to LOVE the Lord. In His 3 years of ministry He spends much of His time HEALING and even reviving people, but even without the displays of awesome power, just the will He has to heal, and the compassion He has to teach men to forgive each other of transgressions between one another, that is so beyond humanly GOOD that I would love that person even if they were powerless. Then of course Revelation shows that yes, you still have to fear God along with loving Him because He's every bit still capable of pouring on severe wrath, but the bulk of the fear comes from the OT, and the bulk of the love comes from the NT.

Hawkins said:
I can give you the perspective. Humans count bodies but God counts souls. If the Canaanites are not eliminated, then 1) wars will continue generations after generations, more death tolls will be on both sides. 2) Israel will have to focus on wars instead of God. 3) the consequence is that God's message of salvation may not reach today's humans if either the wars go on (as manipulated by Satan), or the Jews are outnumbered and defeated by the Canaanites.

If children grow up, they will hold the same religion as every Canaanite and will wind up in hell. They die as children such that judgment won't fall upon them.

God endorse such a soul-saving "genocide", as that's how a people is needed to do the job. That's one of the reasons why Israel, as the only chosen people on earth, will have to do God's will in terms of saving human souls. This is a one time situation such that the Jews can grow firmly to carry forward God's plan, such that now you can see how the gospel can spread all over the world.

Well that actually happened but not from sparing the children but from making league with entire cities and living with them rather than destroying them as God commanded. The feel I have for mercy for the children is based out of them being in a position where at least I feel they could grow up to be different, the Hebrews could teach them the true God, etc. I am probably wrong. But it's still a difficult and troubling thing for me, because I'm a softy.

Blade · Feb 10, 2020

I think pray and ask Him.. Hes real

He will tell you show you. We know that "a greedy man brings trouble to his family" as the word says. And we need to remember what happen to Israel. All they have seen up to this point. NONE of us have. God was among them. And its not like no one knew what the "cost" was going to be if they didn't listen. This "stoning" was known. Just like today if you steal of do some crime you know the cost. They were told what not to do. So when just one person does something that GOD told them not to do. That stops God from doing any more .. as in blessing them. There is some truth in "One bad apple spoils the whole bunch". Not quite the same but.. Adam and Eve.. that sin they did effected all.

And we forget... everything we see right now.. WE DID THIS! Not God. This was NOT Gods plan. We know preaches that say "God gives life and takes life. He can because He's God" <---this true yet not. Again.. this is NOT they way God wanted it. God gave Adam and Eve all the works of His hands. And like in Joshua God warned what would happen if they eat of that tree they would die. Adam and Eve didn't listen. So what we did is hand over what GOD gave us to Satan. Satan told Christ "And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it."

Its not like no one knew about "stoning". Like you were told NOT do to this or that.. you KNEW what would happen if you do. So you do it any way.. Gods fault? God knew .. He knows all. Gods fault I have to grow old ..or watch some sickness hit any and all around us. All that is GODs fault?

Fact is.. He is God.. and I can not even grasp nor understand all He has done right NOW. I will after this life. But I have to take it by faith there is SO much more here I don't see nor hear.

Jamdoc · Feb 10, 2020

Blade said:
I think pray and ask Him.. Hes real He will tell you show you. We know that "a greedy man brings trouble to his family" as the word says. And we need to remember what happen to Israel. All they have seen up to this point. NONE of us have. God was among them. And its not like no one knew what the "cost" was going to be if they didn't listen. This "stoning" was known. Just like today if you steal of do some crime you know the cost. They were told what not to do. So when just one person does something that GOD told them not to do. That stops God from doing any more .. as in blessing them. There is some truth in "One bad apple spoils the whole bunch". Not quite the same but.. Adam and Eve.. that sin they did effected all.

And we forget... everything we see right now.. WE DID THIS! Not God. This was NOT Gods plan. We know preaches that say "God gives life and takes life. He can because He's God" <---this true yet not. Again.. this is NOT they way God wanted it. God gave Adam and Eve all the works of His hands. And like in Joshua God warned what would happen if they eat of that tree they would die. Adam and Eve didn't listen. So what we did is hand over what GOD gave us to Satan. Satan told Christ "And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it."

Its not like no one knew about "stoning". Like you were told NOT do to this or that.. you KNEW what would happen if you do. So you do it any way.. Gods fault? God knew .. He knows all. Gods fault I have to grow old ..or watch some sickness hit any and all around us. All that is GODs fault?

Fact is.. He is God.. and I can not even grasp nor understand all He has done right NOW. I will after this life. But I have to take it by faith there is SO much more here I don't see nor hear.

Achan did it, and the adult Caananites did it but the children did not do it is where my troubles stem from.

Der Alte · Feb 10, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Achan did it, and the adult Caananites did it but the children did not do it is where my troubles stem from.

If the children were left alive who would raise them? What would be their attitude toward all the Israelites who participated in the stoning of their parents? What would be their attitude toward God who ordered the stoning?
Since children and infants committed no sins meriting punishment they would be glorified in the resurrection.

Jamdoc · Feb 10, 2020

Der Alter said:
If the children were left alive who would raise them? What would be their attitude toward all the Israelites who participated in the stoning of their parents? What would be their attitude toward God who ordered the stoning?
Since children and infants committed no sins meriting punishment they would be glorified in the resurrection.

In Achan's case the mother, and their father's brothers and kin, the same way any widow and orphans would be cared for, and God Himself declares Himself to take the role of their Father and protector. Exodus 22:22-24. Also in Achan's case, Achan repented before he was stoned, his children would have learned that their father had received just punishment for his sin. Because even Achan himself knew he'd done wrong and deserved his punishment.
It is a lot of children to consider when you're told to kill all the adults even if you were told to spare the small children, but is that the answer in war? Kill all the children because you don't have a convenient way to care for them? In this case it was only right because God commanded it. But in normal situations where God doesn't command such a thing, that justification should immediately be convicted.

DNB · Feb 10, 2020

Jamdoc said:
To me it's more like, in the old testament I learn to fear God, for his judgement of our sins, even to the point of Him almost seeming callous at times. But it's hard to love God based on the threat of what He can do to you and His power. My love for God is not based on His being able to create us and display awesome power and punish us severely, that's the basis of my fear of Him. Even though the OT does tell you that God is slow to anger, and merciful (Exodus 34:6), the focus at least in Exodus-Joshua, is the reason to fear the Lord, because the Lord does a lot of killing or commands a lot of killing in those books. I would fear God without Him doing things that were good for the Israelites, purely based on His power. It would be hard to love Him though, you could fear an abusive father, but it can be hard to love Him.
But while Jesus tells you that God still does all of this punishment and severeness, so you still have just as much reason to fear Him, he displays more compassion, more forgiveness, more goodness, reasons to LOVE the Lord. In His 3 years of ministry He spends much of His time HEALING and even reviving people, but even without the displays of awesome power, just the will He has to heal, and the compassion He has to teach men to forgive each other of transgressions between one another, that is so beyond humanly GOOD that I would love that person even if they were powerless. Then of course Revelation shows that yes, you still have to fear God along with loving Him because He's every bit still capable of pouring on severe wrath, but the bulk of the fear comes from the OT, and the bulk of the love comes from the NT.

Well that actually happened but not from sparing the children but from making league with entire cities and living with them rather than destroying them as God commanded. The feel I have for mercy for the children is based out of them being in a position where at least I feel they could grow up to be different, the Hebrews could teach them the true God, etc. I am probably wrong. But it's still a difficult and troubling thing for me, because I'm a softy.

You are right as far as the facts that you pointed out, Jamdoc, but you may have missed the point. When God was being severe, he was simultaneously being merciful & generous. As he destroyed the majority of the world, he had compassion upon Noah & his family. As he destroyed Sodome, he spared Lot. As he was severe against Egypt in the time of Moses, he was merciful towards the Israelites. As he destroyed the Canaanites, he was blessing the Israelites. As he was punishing the Israelites, he was empowering and flourishing the Egyptians, Assyrians & Babylonians.
Thus, both sides to God were always being revealed in any act that he committed. The was never a time where it was merely wrath upon wrath. Moses warned the Egyptians but they cared not to heed to his warning, Noah warned his people but they did not take him seriously, Jonah warned Nineveh and the repented, the Prophets constantly warned the northern & southern tribes of Israel unto death, before their destruction came.
Moral of the story, if you behave righteously, which should be a pleasure, God will bless you beyond measure, otherwise, you will be punished accordingly.
Plus, even when one sins, he has made a way out for them. In other words Jamdoc, it has only been the utterly defiant, cruel and wicked, that have been the recipients of God's wrath, never those who committed misdemeanors.
You have nothing to fear, if you respect God, all the others worshiped idols (truly despicable).
God was not cruel, was he?

Paulus59 · Feb 10, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I know God is righteous and just but it's just so hard for me to stomach knowing that in the later books of the Torah and books like Joshua, where it's just genocide. I get that killing those who go to war with you, and that God had given the land to Israel, but when it comes down to even killing the children, it's really hard for me to feel right in it. Or like when Achan sinned in Joshua 7, not only was he put to death, but his sons and daughters too. My only way of feeling right about that is to think, they were children old enough to know their father was doing wrong and so they were complicit in the act. But to think that God's having like, toddlers and babies stoned to death because their dad did something wrong.. it's hard. It makes God seem callous even if He's right.

This might answer some of your questions. I copied & pasted this from GotQuestions.

*****************************************

Question: "Why did God command the extermination / genocide of the Canaanites, women and children included?"

Answer: In 1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" God ordered similar things when the Israelites were invading the promised land (Deuteronomy 2:34; 3:6; 20:16-18). Why would God have the Israelites exterminate an entire group of people, women and children included?

This is a difficult issue. We do not fully understand why God would command such a thing, but we trust God that He is just – and we recognize that we are incapable of fully understanding a sovereign, infinite, and eternal God. As we look at difficult issues such as this one, we must remember that God’s ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9; Romans 11:33-36). We have to be willing to trust God and have faith in Him even when we do not understand His ways.

Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God’s orders, the Amalekites would come back to trouble the Israelites in the future. Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously, Saul was lying—just a couple of decades later, there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see the book of Esther). So, Saul’s incomplete obedience almost resulted in Israel’s destruction. God knew this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time.

In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “In the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18). The Israelites failed in this mission as well, and exactly what God said would happen occurred (Judges 2:1-3; 1 Kings 11:5; 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3-4). God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.

Probably the most difficult part of these commands from God is that God ordered the death of children and infants as well. Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents. (3) These children would naturally have grown up resentful of the Israelites and later sought to avenge the “unjust” treatment of their parents.

Again, this answer does not completely deal with all the issues. Our focus should be on trusting God even when we do not understand His ways. We also must remember that God looks at things from an eternal perspective and that His ways are higher than our ways. God is just, righteous, holy, loving, merciful, and gracious. How His attributes work together can be a mystery to us – but that does not mean that He is not who the Bible proclaims Him to be.

Brian Mcnamee · Feb 10, 2020

Jamdoc said:
He actually confessed to it immediately and told Joshua exactly what he'd stolen and exactly where he'd hidden it. So I guess there was no real chance at repentance to spare him or his family. It's a hard book to come to grips with because outside of the context of God commanding it, its obviously murder and genocide and wrong. If God commands it it's right.. but it still feels very callous that it extended all the way to small children.
I pray that the young children who did not know right from wrong yet are not eternally suffering for the sins of their forefathers.

you have the idea of sparing and repentance wrong. What if Achan did repent and God wanted to use him as an example so Achan and his family are all stoned to death and wake up in what was to be called Abraham's bosom and they were accounted righteous by believing God but still had the consequence of their temporal life cut short. You see Adam was told the day you eat of the tree that was forbidden he would die. Yet he ate and did not die. The 1st sin shows that spiritual death is the death to fear. So when you look back and say it is hard I have new for you the tribulation will even out the death and mayhem of the old testament as Jesus treads the wine press of the wrath of God himself.

OldWiseGuy · Feb 10, 2020

Oscarr said:
Well, knowing that because of Adam's rebellion against God in which he lost the godly nature that he had, and gained a nature that rebels against God, which nature is passed on to all his descendants, every human being is deserving of hell, and God would be totally righteous if He allowed every person to end up there. And it is only by His unmerited grace that some of us have avoided that penalty through Christ. So, we are the last people to be able to judge God for the decisions He makes.

If Adam had and lost (the) Godly nature he will face eternal death in the judgment, having committed the unpardonable sin.

Presbyterian Continuist · Feb 10, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
If Adam had and lost (the) Godly nature he will face eternal death in the judgment, having committed the unpardonable sin.

Ah, but God preached the gospel of Christ to him in order to get his faith in the Messiah to come, which I believe he did, and therefore was saved by God's grace. Adam still had to die physically, and when that happened, the ungodly nature that was in his flesh died with it. I believe that Adam's spirit is in Paradise awaiting the resurrection of the godly to be with Jesus, along with those who will be still alive when the time comes to be caught up to meet the Lord.

OldWiseGuy · Feb 10, 2020

Oscarr said:
Ah, but God preached the gospel of Christ to him in order to get his faith in the Messiah to come, which I believe he did, and therefore was saved by God's grace. Adam still had to die physically, and when that happened, the ungodly nature that was in his flesh died with it. I believe that Adam's spirit is in Paradise awaiting the resurrection of the godly to be with Jesus, along with those who will be still alive when the time comes to be caught up to meet the Lord.

I don't believe that Adam had the Godly nature; the Holy Spirit of God.

Sal Robinson · Feb 11, 2020

when ever i struggle with these things, think of what would have happened if God didn't do what he did,

what if those young one grew up influenced by the wickedness of those around them

then wickedness would dominate

what if you and I never existed because things didn't happen the way God chose

these are hard things to talk about

i'm glad you're raising these points

Dave L · Feb 11, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I know God is righteous and just but it's just so hard for me to stomach knowing that in the later books of the Torah and books like Joshua, where it's just genocide. I get that killing those who go to war with you, and that God had given the land to Israel, but when it comes down to even killing the children, it's really hard for me to feel right in it. Or like when Achan sinned in Joshua 7, not only was he put to death, but his sons and daughters too. My only way of feeling right about that is to think, they were children old enough to know their father was doing wrong and so they were complicit in the act. But to think that God's having like, toddlers and babies stoned to death because their dad did something wrong.. it's hard. It makes God seem callous even if He's right.

The Old Testament helps explain the death and suffering we see today. It helps me understand what we are seeing in China's flu epidemic/developing pandemic.

Eha · Feb 11, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I know God is righteous and just but it's just so hard for me to stomach knowing that in the later books of the Torah and books like Joshua, where it's just genocide. I get that killing those who go to war with you, and that God had given the land to Israel, but when it comes down to even killing the children, it's really hard for me to feel right in it. Or like when Achan sinned in Joshua 7, not only was he put to death, but his sons and daughters too. My only way of feeling right about that is to think, they were children old enough to know their father was doing wrong and so they were complicit in the act. But to think that God's having like, toddlers and babies stoned to death because their dad did something wrong.. it's hard. It makes God seem callous even if He's right.

i had that issue too.
but i know one thing - it is just too naive think that we could understand motives and reason, why Father did this, unless He explain it. When i asked, He was silent. so i wasnt ready for that yet. Now i was almost 30 years busy by learning, Who He IS, in real and .... Old testament God, like i see Him, is scary, but God i know now - He may get angry (im really stubborn) and Hes anger i scary. Yet, He love kids so much... He really adores them. I have seen angel with flaming sword, who was sent, to protect them - in the middle of day, and i wasnt dreaming! How then... ?
I didnt ask more. And i think, if you really want to clear this up - talk with Him, not with people.

Hawkins · Feb 11, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Well that actually happened but not from sparing the children but from making league with entire cities and living with them rather than destroying them as God commanded. The feel I have for mercy for the children is based out of them being in a position where at least I feel they could grow up to be different, the Hebrews could teach them the true God, etc. I am probably wrong. But it's still a difficult and troubling thing for me, because I'm a softy.

You need to learn some history then. Canaanites are firm believers of false gods such as Baal, and for that matter they practice children sacrifice. They kill their own children.

The Israelites didn't eliminate the Canaanites as commanded. Perhaps that's why Baal is worshiped time and after in the history of Israel. If this extends to a larger scale, Israel may risk the failure of carrying forward God's salvation to today's humans.

Moreover, education is more likely that opposite. It's not the Israelites to educate the Canaanites but the opposite, as God has strict commandments and laws for the Israelites, while the Canaanites are free to do anything.

Egyptians are the liberals relatively and in terms of religions. That's why God has to raise Israel in Egypt till the Egyptians kill the children of the Israelites simply because they got overpopulated.

The Midianites are somewhere in between. They allow their women to adapt the religion of their husbands.

In a nutshell, God has a different morality than humans. Humans' morality is based off whether an innocent is harmed. God's morality is based off whether a savable soul is not saved. That's why Genesis warns that when humans touch the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil as tempted by the devil, they start to judge God to see their own doom. Your seem-to-right morality demonstrated here actually kills humanity, as your criteria used is to preserve physical lives such that more souls will be lost.

frederick943 · Feb 11, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I know God is righteous and just but .....

Why are you conceding that God is righteous and just? All of the things you mentioned, as well as many more, indicate the opposite. No matter how anyone spins it, these things are awful, and the antithesis of a loving God.

Jamdoc · Feb 11, 2020

On the subject of Adam, do you notice how God killed animals to clothe them in their skins after Adam's sin? Was that the first sin offering to atone for an ignorant Adam?

Jamdoc · Feb 11, 2020

Because He is sovereign. Righteous and Just are discerned from His point of view and not ours. Even if everything He did to humans was absolutely awful and there were no means of salvation and we all went to hell and were tortured for it forever, He would be right simply because we have no means to contest it. What are you going to do, change God's mind? Thankfully through Jesus He has shown that He is good from our point of view as well, even if sometimes it may not seem that way.
Maybe those children who died in the Genocide are in heaven, maybe it's all made up to them even if their physical lives were cut short in a brutal fashion. It is troublesome because we don't know what the full outcome is and we want to see God as merciful from our own point of view without having His perspective. It's our own imperfections that make it difficult.

Alain Valdivia · Feb 12, 2020

In order for us to understand God’s dealings with the Canaanites or others we must first understand His divine attributes and who He is. For one, He is a holy God who is just and righteous. He is also a merciful God in whom there is endless compassion. Yet His love and mercy never overrides His divine justice. When God commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanites we must understand that God’ who is infinitely good, cannot, by necessity, commit or command that which is contrary to His nature. The best explanation for God’s dealings with the Canaanites and others is that it was due to Divine Justice. Neither were any person innocent in the strict sense. Even infants aren’t innocent in the strict sense because of original sin inherited from Adam. Because of this, they are by nature children of wrath as the Apostle Paul says in Ephesians 2:3. For this reason, they were not innocent. They had the stain of sin upon them and due to God’s foreknowledge of their future sins being destructive He saw fit that it was best to destroy them by a lesser evil so that a greater evil wouldn’t occur. Aquinas, when speaking about whether God could exist if evil was in the world he answered by saying this:
“As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.”

I have trouble reading much of the old testament

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