The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

FineLinen

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So then why did you use that passage to support universalism? ...are we about to go in circles?
So then why did you use that passage to support universalism? ...are we about to go in circles?

Dear DNB: Please learn to focus. The theme of this link is the ghastly dogma. You have questioned the scope of pas whose radical scope is demonstrated below.

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."
 
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DNB

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Dear DNB: Please learn to focus. The theme of this link is the ghastly dogma. You have questioned the scope of pas whose radical scope is demonstrated below.

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."
Yes, including hell, that was the point that Paul was making. If Christ is to judge all, then obviously he has dominion over, not only heaven, but hell too.
Your bias is affecting your perception and your understanding of the entirety of Scripture.
 
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FineLinen

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Yes, including hell, that was the point that Paul was making. If Christ is to judge all, then obviously he has dominion over, not only heaven, but hell too.
Your bias is affecting your perception and your understanding of the entirety of Scripture.

Dear BNR: My "bias" regarding the scope of all/pas & ta pante stays in place until you can demonstrate scholarship that demonstrates otherwise.

All four hell's are consummated in the Lake of Theos: every last one!

This is your mission for today, should you be willing to accept it… List the “many” Koine Greek scholars who maintain all does not mean all.

Koine Greek Scholars: All does not mean all =

1 _____________________________________________.

2.______________________________________________

3.______________________________________________

4.______________________________________________

Why not start with the Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament by William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich

PAS, pa’sa, pa’n gen. pantov", pavsh", pantov" (dat. pl. pa’si and pa’sin vary considerably in the mss.; s. W-S. §5, 28; cf. Rob. 219-21) (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, En., Ep. Arist., Philo, Joseph., Test. 12 Patr.).
 
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DNB

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Dear BNR: My "bias" regarding the scope of all/pas & ta pante stays in place until you can demonstrate scholarship that demonstrates otherwise.

This is your mission for today, should you be willing to accept it… List the “many” Koine Greek scholars who maintain all does not mean all.

Koine Greek Scholars: All does not mean all =

1 _____________________________________________.

2.______________________________________________

3.______________________________________________

4.______________________________________________

Why not start with the Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament by William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich

PAS, pa’sa, pa’n gen. pantov", pavsh", pantov" (dat. pl. pa’si and pa’sin vary considerably in the mss.; s. W-S. §5, 28; cf. Rob. 219-21) (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX, En., Ep. Arist., Philo, Joseph., Test. 12 Patr.).


All four hell's are consummated in the Lake of Theos: every last one!
Splitting hairs over a single word, especially giving that single word a universal and unequivocal meaning throughout Scripture, exposes your folly in exegesis.
I'm very serious, this a base hermeneutical principle, i.e. context supersedes grammar, because grammar does not have any hard-fast rules, especially from a Book written over the course of 1,400 years.
 
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FineLinen

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Splitting hairs over a single word, especially giving that single word a universal and unequivocal meaning throughout Scripture, exposes your folly in exegesis.

Dear BNR: Show us the scholarship that demonstrates otherwise. When you can, we shall move forward. Until that exciting presentation we will focus on the theme of this link. That focus is the ghastly dogma of unending torture by your god.
 
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FineLinen

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Welcome to the spitting hairs campaign of the non radical pas, replacing pas with tis.

Perhaps the radical all of pas should be tis (some) in scope in tis occasions. Let's try that in the following passages of the Word. > > >


1 Cor. 15:22

“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

Rev. 5:13

“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

Col. 1:18-20

“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

Acts 3:20,21

“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

1 Cor. 15:28

“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.

1 Cor. 15:25,27

“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

Romans 11:32

“For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”

Eph. 4:10

“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

John 5:28

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

1 Timothy 2:4

“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:6

“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

Cor. 5:15

“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

Gal. 3:20

“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

Heb. 1:2

“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

2 Cor. 5:14

“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

Heb.8:11

“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

“For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

Heb. 12:23

“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

James 2:10

“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

Romans 3:22,23

“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

John 17:2

“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Romans 9:5

“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

2 Peter 3:9

“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please remember

All/pas does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some/ tis.
 
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nolidad

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No. I agree that if aionios "punishment" is NOT everlasting, then neither is aionios life everlasting. Fortunately, one age follows the next.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

If a person wants to understand Restorationism, it requires a lot of homework. No getting around that. I'm relatively new to this. I have a long way to go yet. But making solid progress. At this point, there is no turning back. If I wasn't a Restorationist, I suppose I would have to be agnostic. I can't accept the angry tyrant of a pagan volcano god, whose wrath we need to be saved from, that has been handed down to us. That's not the God that I know.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

So then you reject as inspired verses like this?

John 3: 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Matt. 7:
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And dozens of other verses that declare the wrath of God on unrepentant man?

You have yet to show any evidence on why restorationism (which so far sounds like bible revisionism) is valid at all.
 
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nolidad

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Dear DNB: Mindless torture is NOT self inflicted! I not only reject it, I refuse to believe the One our Saviour Christ the Lord referred in the most intimate term, Abba/dearest Daddy, is in the same ghastly world! ! !

Well tehn you reject SCripture and context and rules of grammar!
 
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DNB

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Dear BNR: Show us the scholarship that demonstrates otherwise. When you can, we shall move forward. Until that exciting presentation we will focus on the theme of this link. That focus is the ghastly dogma of unending torture by your god.
We're going in circles FL, one example was John baptizing all Judeans in the Jordan. It clearly does not denote, every single Judean alive at that time.
 
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nolidad

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If a person wants to understand Restorationism, it requires a lot of homework. No getting around that. I'm relatively new to this. I have a long way to go yet. But making solid progress. At this point, there is no turning back. If I wasn't a Restorationist, I suppose I would have to be agnostic. I can't accept the angry tyrant of a pagan volcano god, whose wrath we need to be saved from, that has been handed down to us. That's not the God that I know.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling
the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

And I agree 100%!!! Not one person goes to the lake of fire for all eternity for their sins!

People suffer eternal damnation because they reject the one who reconciles the to himself!

John 3: 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The word not is a negative disjunctive participle which means it is dividing between two mutually exclusive possibilities!

And abideth is biblically defioned as thus:

  1. to remain, abide
    1. in reference to place
      1. to sojourn, tarry

      2. not to depart
        1. to continue to be present

        2. to be held, kept, continually
    2. in reference to time
      1. to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
        1. of persons, to survive, live
    3. in reference to state or condition
      1. to remain as one, not to become another or different
  2. to wait for, await one
Then of course there is Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Now all you and fine linen and the others here who hold to universalism or destructionism or whatever is provide SCriptures that show that after death there is repentance available to a lost sinner.
 
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nolidad

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Dear St. John: We know you were in the most intimate terms with the Master of reconciliation. Perhaps you should change your definition of aionios to align with Noli?

"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You..."

Well as he wrote as inpired by God- I agree wtih Him!

" This is ETERNAL life, that they (not we as Jesus already knew the Father) may know you!

Once again you are pianted in a corner! If aionios only means an age or quality of life- you have no sscripture that says the saved ever live and never cease to exist! You can't have it mean one thing for the lost and another for th esaved.
 
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nolidad

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As I understand it, both are in reference to the age (judgment/correction/restoration) before all things are restored. The time it takes to restore all of creation. Therefore, those ages are simultaneous.

Saint Steven said:
No. I agree that if aionios "punishment" is NOT everlasting, then neither is aionios life everlasting. Fortunately, one age follows the next.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

And once again there is nothing in SCripture other than the inferences from those teachers of restorationism that after the age of life and punishment- anyone lives again!

If you read REv. 21 is the restoration and it follows REv. where God sets up his Great White throne and casts all unsaved into the lake of fire! There is no pulling people out of the lake after an age! Just like there is no cessationism for the saved after an age!

Here is a good site that shows why aionios when referring to lie after human history is rendered eternal for it is the endless time of eternity which is timeless.

#4 – What Biblical Scholars Say about the Word "Aionios"

Once again if aionios means only for a unspecific but limited time for those suffwering in the lake of fire- it has to mean the same who have life after human time for it also is rendered in the same greek contruct.
 
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FineLinen

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So then you reject as inspired verses like this?

John 3: 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Dear young Noli: Why should any individual reject such a wonderful declaration? ?

Verse 16 is followed by verse 17, both inspired utterances!


"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
 
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FineLinen

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FineLinen

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And I agree 100%!!! Not one person goes to the lake of fire for all eternity for their sins!

People suffer eternal damnation because they reject the one who reconciles the to himself!

Repeat

There is no such animal as aidios ktisis. There is aionios zoe and aionios kolasis/punishment but zero aidios ktisis!
 
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FineLinen

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Do you know there are those among our species who have never seen anything in any dimension of glorious colour? Everything is only in black & white. Our Abba lives in incredible dimensions of glory. Try on your new glasses and behold what you see when your scope has changed.

 
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Saint Steven

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“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB‬‬
So you believe that God doesn't need to draw us to him by his Spirit? (John 6:44; John 6:65)

Saint Steven said:
What if it is not us, but rather God, who decides when we get saved? Can we come to God if the Spirit does not draw us?
 
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