Rapture Wimpism

BABerean2 said:

Just a few days ago a member of this forum informed me that the New Covenant was not in effect yet because we still need teachers.(Hebrews 8:11)
After I sent him the following verse I received no response.

1 John 2:27.

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I do have a life apart from the forums!

Your quote of 1 John 2:27, is a reiteration of the Covenant Promise. It has not happened yet.
If it has, then we are all not yet fully Christian, because not one of us does not need a teacher.
Proved by our inability to agree on very much at all.

jgr said:

The mathematics which demonstrate ancestral genetic dispersion and ubiquity are not a "study". They have been extant for generations. Blaise Pascal, an historical believer and mathematician, was responsible for much of the associated groundwork. To describe them as a "study" is to once again demonstrate the ignorance which saturates dispensational racialist dogma.

Let's have some genuinely scientific and Scriptural discourse, recognizing that God Himself is all truth wherever truth is found.

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The mathematical truth of genetic confluence from Abrahams genes, into everyone alive today, is indisputable.
That some think this truth conflicts with scripture, simply means they are misunderstanding scripture. New Testament teachings, plus some OT prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8 and Isaiah 62:1-5, all prove that the Israelites of God since Jesus came, are only those who believe in God and accept His Son. THEY; we Christians, are the inheritors of all of God's promises to His people.:
Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ, indeed, we have been given the heritage, as was decreed in God’s purpose. For it was His will that we who set our hopes in Jesus, should be the ones to make His glory known and praised.
We Christians have the Seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the pledge of the inheritance that will be ours when God has cleared and cleansed His possession. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

Romans 8:16-18 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God…..it is the Spirit of adoption, so we can call Him ‘Father’. This affirms that we are God’s children and if children, then heirs, heirs of God’s promises through Christ.
But we must share His suffering, if we are also to share His glory.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises of God through Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 So if you belong to Christ, then you are the issue of Abraham and heirs of God’s promises. [to the Patriarchs]

I know the thread started with lots of references to tribulation, that "rapture wimps" seemingly seek to basically avoid tribulation. In the ministry circles I have studied (not mastered by any means) the problem that many have with rapture believers is that by not taking a partial preterist view, they will not participate or be more lukewarm for the seven mountain mandate of taking back all these areas of life. Here is one quote that suggests this. "Peter Wagner, ... an adherent of partial preterism, believing most end-times prophecies were fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. However, unlike full preterists, Wagner believes Christ will return after Christians transform the culture and people move into “God’s prosperity.”

Similarly, Mike Bickle writes "Our primary end-time theology is historic premillennialism with a victorious church. After many years of searching the Word and studying the writings of other ministries, our leadership team is firmly convinced that this is the end-time position that is most faithful to what we believe the Scriptures teach. Our core convictions express this theological perspective.Our primary end-time theology is historic premillennialism with a victorious church. http://www.beyondrevelation.com/stu...ing-importance-of-end-time-beliefs-session-2/
Personally, I pretty much believe in a pre-trib rapture, but would be interested to know if the Wagner/Bickle position is the preferred alternative to many of the posters in this thread?

keras said:

Your quote of 1 John 2:27, is a reiteration of the Covenant Promise. It has not happened yet.
If it has, then we are all not yet fully Christian, because not one of us does not need a teacher.
Proved by our inability to agree on very much at all.

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Is the Holy Spirit your teacher?


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.


Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.



1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
1Jn 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

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BABerean2 said:

Is the Holy Spirit your teacher?

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Yes. Is He yours? If so, then why do we disagree on so much?

Your insistence of the complete fulfilment of Hebrews 8:10-11, where teaching about the Lord will no longer be required, just show how far from the reality's of the present day you are.
Maybe the Holy Spirit did teach all things to the Apostles, John 14:26, but He surely has not done so for all of us today.


James Morris, you don't seem to be able to get over the idea that God has changed His Mind; from His people being genetic Israel to those today being born again Christians.
BUT He hasn't! The actual People of God were always only those who believed in Him and kept the Commandments. The change [or better; the addition] has just been for those believers to accept the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus.

I particularly like Isaiah 51:1-8 Listen to Me, all who follow after the right, all who seek the Lord, consider the Rock from where you were hewn. Abraham is your father and Sarah your mother...….. This applies to all the Christians who have the faith of Abraham, WE are the Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29

keras said:

Yes. Is He yours? If so, then why do we disagree on so much?

Your insistence of the complete fulfilment of Hebrews 8:10-11, where teaching about the Lord will no longer be required, just show how far from the reality's of the present day you are.
Maybe the Holy Spirit did teach all things to the Apostles, John 14:26, but He surely has not done so for all of us today.

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Maybe you cannot accept the fact that your interpretation of Hebrews 8:10-11, denies Matthew 26:28, and John 14:26, and John 19:30, and 1 John 2:27, and Hebrews 7:12, and Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24, and many other passages which reveal that Christ fulfilled the New Covenant in His blood at Calvary.

All of those passages were not addressed only to the Apostles of Christ.

Those who are under the teaching of the Holy Spirit allow themselves to be corrected by what is written in God's Word.

I have had to change what I believed during recent years because what I believed did not line up with what was plainly written in scripture.
I have been corrected by other members of this forum.

How about you?

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SeventyOne said:

It's been a while since I've seen an OP in full open attack mode.

The great tribulation is described as a time of darkness, unlike anything before it or anything after it. So, while you can show off your word search skills and allude to physical persecutions that have and do exist, they all pale in comparison to what lies ahead.

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But he was speaking of the tribulation of those living in Jerusalem when that city would be destroyed as a result of God's judgement. It was the greatest tribulation. Over a million people died in a 3 year siege that was so devastating, people were eating children to survive.

The rapture is taught as pre-trib, because the scripture teaches it as pre-trib. It's not a North American thing, it is a hope for all believers, both those under severe and less severe persecutions. While you may think it's foolish to do as Jesus commanded and to pray that we would escape that time of tribulation and instead stand before Him, I will continue to do just that. Feel free to stick around.

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There is no rapture taught in the bible. If you pray to escape tribulation, you're praying that you don't wish to take part in the promise of God, that we are to suffer for Christ's sake. Christ died for us. Are we to say in response that we want to live perfectly peaceful lives without any sacrifice on our own part?

keras said:

Yes. Is He yours? If so, then why do we disagree on so much?

Your insistence of the complete fulfilment of Hebrews 8:10-11, where teaching about the Lord will no longer be required, just show how far from the reality's of the present day you are.
Maybe the Holy Spirit did teach all things to the Apostles, John 14:26, but He surely has not done so for all of us today.

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He put the gospel down in words so we could study and learn. So I think he has done so. 'That which is perfect' has come. That people disagree is just evidence of our imperfection, not the scripture.

James Morris, you don't seem to be able to get over the idea that God has changed His Mind; from His people being genetic Israel to those today being born again Christians.

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I wouldn't say he's changed his mind. The plan of the gospel was made 'before the foundation of the world.' Thus it was always the plan that Jesus come to sacrifice himself to reconcile the people of Moses and the Gentiles.

Al Touthentop said:

But he was speaking of the tribulation of those living in Jerusalem when that city would be destroyed as a result of God's judgement. It was the greatest tribulation. Over a million people died in a 3 year siege that was so devastating, people were eating children to survive.



There is no rapture taught in the bible. If you pray to escape tribulation, you're praying that you don't wish to take part in the promise of God, that we are to suffer for Christ's sake. Christ died for us. Are we to say in response that we want to live perfectly peaceful lives without any sacrifice on our own part?

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Dying to self is much harder through out life than just being a martyr.

`...though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.` (1 Cor. 13: 3)

The `catching away` of the mature Body of Christ has nothing to do with escapism. The mature Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, is taken to the Lord`s throne where they will judge fallen angels and the world system. (Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

Marilyn C said:

Dying to self is much harder through out life than just being a martyr.

`...though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.` (1 Cor. 13: 3)

The `catching away` of the mature Body of Christ has nothing to do with escapism. The mature Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, is taken to the Lord`s throne where they will judge fallen angels and the world system. (Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

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Everyone is resurrected on the same day. Being a martyr is what we're called to do. The Greek word μαρτυριαν - marturian - where we get our word martyr means 'witness.' It doesn't mean to die literally. It only took on that meaning because Christ's witnesses were willing to physically die rather than to deny him.

But the word's connotation even back then was to live a life in testimony to Christ, to die to one's old self and be like Christ. Many North American Christians are running after riches, not dying daily for Christ. Only in America could one find the doctrine of 'word of faith' which treats the bible as a book of incantations which force God to bestow riches on those who quote it properly.

Al Touthentop said:

Everyone is resurrected on the same day. Being a martyr is what we're called to do. The Greek word μαρτυριαν - marturian - where we get our word martyr means 'witness.' It doesn't mean to die literally. It only took on that meaning because Christ's witnesses were willing to physically die rather than to deny him.

But the word's connotation even back then was to live a life in testimony to Christ, to die to one's old self and be like Christ. Many North American Christians are running after riches, not dying daily for Christ. Only in America could one find the doctrine of 'word of faith' which treats the bible as a book of incantations which force God to bestow riches on those who quote it properly.

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Well those so called Christians will find they are not in the Body of Christ.

And we are NOT all resurrected on the same day. God has purposes for -
1. The Body of Christ. Called out of Israel and the nations.
2. Israel. called out of the nations.
3. The nations.

`Give no offence, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (Gentile nations) or to the church of God.` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

Note: 3 groups there that God has purposes for.

Al Touthentop said:

There is no rapture taught in the bible. If you pray to escape tribulation, you're praying that you don't wish to take part in the promise of God, that we are to suffer for Christ's sake. Christ died for us. Are we to say in response that we want to live perfectly peaceful lives without any sacrifice on our own part?

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I'm doing no such thing. The Tribulation is a time when God is pouring out His wrath upon the earth. Suffering for the sake of Christ is normal, and has been going on for nearly 2,000 years. That's not something exclusive to the Trib. If you think that, you just denigrated every believer who has suffered until now.

Escaping? Isn't that what we are instructed to pray for? Yes, it is. Luke 21:36
Peaceful lives? Isn't that what we are instructed to pray for? Yes, it is. 1 Timothy 2:1-2

Why are you against scripture in these areas?

SeventyOne said:

I'm doing no such thing. The Tribulation is a time when God is pouring out His wrath upon the earth.

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He already did that if you're referring to Matthew 24.

Suffering for the sake of Christ is normal, and has been going on for nearly 2,000 years. That's not something exclusive to the Trib. If you think that, you just denigrated every believer who has suffered until now.

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"The trib" happened already. That doesn't mean that more tribulations won't happen but the greatest tribulation culminated in Jerusalem in AD70.

Escaping? Isn't that what we are instructed to pray for? Yes, it is. Luke 21:36

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The apostles were told to pray that they would escape the Roman siege of Jerusalem. That wasn't an instruction for us.

Al Touthentop said:

He already did that if you're referring to Matthew 24.



"The trib" happened already. That doesn't mean that more tribulations won't happen but the greatest tribulation culminated in Jerusalem in AD70.



The apostles were told to pray that they would escape the Roman siege of Jerusalem. That wasn't an instruction for us.

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I see your mistake. You think this stuff has passed and don't understand the times you are currently living in. There's no way we can have a discussion with such a skewed foundation, as there is no common ground. Good bye.

Eryk said:

The Bible makes a distinction between the persecution of the Church and the hour of trial coming to the whole world.

Revelation 3:10
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Literally, I will keep you out of the hour of trial. Revelation 3:10 Interlinear: 'Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

This message was given to the Philadelphian church but is applicable to all believers (Revelation 3:13).

Earth-dwellers are contrasted with heaven-dwellers, and the unsaved are contrasted with Christians. Christians have been removed from the Earth at the time of the great tribulation.

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Revelation 3:10 is a horrible mistranslation, causing an even worse misinterpretation. If you’re seeking a “literal” translation, it doesn’t say, “...keep you from/out of...” It literally says, “...watch (over) you during/because of...” Learning Greek can free you from a whole mess of unscriptural doctrine, and it doesn’t matter what speakers say it means, it matters what you can prove it says.

Al Touthentop said:

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There is no rapture taught in the bible. If you pray to escape tribulation, you're praying that you don't wish to take part in the promise of God, that we are to suffer for Christ's sake. Christ died for us. Are we to say in response that we want to live perfectly peaceful lives without any sacrifice on our own part?

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I beg your pardon, but OF COURSE the rapture is taught in the bible. Paul tells us in 1 Thes. 4 that Jesus will come to the clouds and the Bride of Christ will be snatched up.

How then can you write that there is no rapture?

The church escapes the wrath of God and "all these things" that are coming with the wrath of God. Did you forget this verse in Luke 21?

36: Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Al Touthentop said:

I wouldn't say he's changed his mind. The plan of the gospel was made 'before the foundation of the world.' Thus it was always the plan that Jesus come to sacrifice himself to reconcile the people of Moses and the Gentiles.

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I do NOT say God has changed His mind either. You mis-read my post.
The true people of God has always been those who believe in Him and keep His Commandments.
As faithful Christians born again into Jesus, we are the Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him. NO ONE else.
Ethnicity actual or claimed, has no bearing on who is a person of God. Revelation 5:9-10

iamlamad said:

I beg your pardon, but OF COURSE the rapture is taught in the bible. Paul tells us in 1 Thes. 4 that Jesus will come to the clouds and the Bride of Christ will be snatched up.

How then can you write that there is no rapture?

The church escapes the wrath of God and "all these things" that are coming with the wrath of God. Did you forget this verse in Luke 21?

36: Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

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Nowhere does the Bible tell us that the Lord will take His people to live in heaven.
Nobody alive when the Lord sends His fiery wrath will 'escape' it by removal. By protection only, as many prophecies say. Isaiah 43:2, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +