I am stuck thinking I need to prove faith to Evolutionists, when the Bible says "they're deluded"

Thomas White · Feb 9, 2020

LoG said:
Statistics seem to be pointing out that since the Fall, the extinction rates are increasing up to the present. Beneficial mutations then are not giving species the ability to adapt fast enough to keep up.

Expected. Humans, the dominant species, have altered many natural habitats. The alterations have gravely injured some species.

The Barbarian · Feb 9, 2020

LoG said:
No, I would agree that it wouldn't. Likely what 2 Corinthians is talking about:

20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Mutations would be a type of decay I would venture.

That's wrong, for sure. Most mutations don't do much of anything. A few are harmful. A very few are useful.

The less adapted a population is in the environment, the fewer useful adaptations occur. This is why, as Darwin pointed out, a well-fitted population in a constant environment, won't evolve much.

But we have a very large number of useful mutations that made their populations more fit. Would you like to learn about some of them?

The Barbarian · Feb 9, 2020

LoG said:
Statistics seem to be pointing out that since the Fall, the extinction rates are increasing up to the present. Beneficial mutations then are not giving species the ability to adapt fast enough to keep up.

No, the greatest extinction event occurred many millions of years ago. The rate of extinctions has gone up and down over that time, for various reasons. The greatest was at the end of the Permian, when about 96% of all species went extinct.

Thomas White · Feb 11, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
??
This is not at all found in Scripture, God's Plan, or His Purpose Revealed in and through Christ Jesus -

JESUS IS OUR HOPE, and OUR SALVATION! there is none other.

Nothing about adaptation opposes the supremacy of Jesus Christ. Nothing in scripture opposes adaptation. God didn't stop speaking to us 2000 years ago. I'm pretty sure He is still speaking. How many people are listening and how many people are stubbornly refusing to hear anything more than what they read in the Bible?

Gottservant · Feb 15, 2020

The point is: God is never going to say "Oops! Sorry, gave you the wrong advice there, you should have tried harder to be a giraffe!!"

I mean this is childishly absurd, right?

Speak, God, if you will: Evolution of one species and one species only, calls out to You "What do we need to change?"!

The Barbarian · Feb 15, 2020

Gottservant said:
The point is: God is never going to say "Oops! Sorry, gave you the wrong advice there, you should have tried harder to be a giraffe!!"

I mean this is childishly absurd, right?

If you think that's how divine providence works, yes. You're just assuming that God can't use contingency to effect His will.

Gottservant · Feb 22, 2020

The Barbarian said:
If you think that's how divine providence works, yes. You're just assuming that God can't use contingency to effect His will.

He can make it harder or easier, to evolve: but I don't see that He can start or stop it.

I think if you were relying on God, to be conceited (that is to take His Creating, as being a vain thing): you would run in to the problem of competing with God, when for Design to work, it has to be expressly His Will.

I think I am assuming that God is in no way conceited, that He is not contingency phobic or indeed hyper contingency focused.

What God creates is moderated by what what He creates needs - that's the contingency that God justifies.

The problem for me is, if God gives me something other than you can predict (I presume for yourself), the onus is on me to bear the burden of the fool, until it (the burden, in principle) can be explained: that is, that what God has done, has made clear the choice the fool makes, when he contends with God. I don't want to have to explain the choice the fool makes, but then I can't justify leaving him to his own devices, since more harm than good may result. That's essentially my point: in ignorance, Evolution does more harm than good.

Better not to evolve and be morally correct, than be morally incorrect and neither able to evolve, either way.

The Barbarian · Feb 22, 2020

If you think that's how divine providence works, yes. You're just assuming that God can't use contingency to effect His will.

Gottservant said:
He can make it harder or easier, to evolve: but I don't see that He can start or stop it.

As Darwin pointed out, even man can do that. I find it odd that you'd deny to God what is manifestly possible for a man to do.

I think if you were relying on God, to be conceited (that is to take His Creating, as being a vain thing): you would run in to the problem of competing with God, when for Design to work, it has to be expressly His Will.

Could you write that in English?

That's essentially my point: in ignorance, Evolution does more harm than good.

Do you think hurricanes and earthquakes do more harm than good?

You're trying to fit God into your own concepts of what is right.

Gottservant · Feb 29, 2020

The thing was you are basically doing a scientific experiment: you are saying "here is a mutation, I will drive a wedge in here and see how mutation affects adaptation" or you are saying "here is a population, I will drive a wedge in here, to see how population affects selection pressure" or you are saying "here is a similarity between apes and men, I will drive a wedge in here and see how apes and men affect each other" - each of these things were part of the experiment.

The problem is that you are not explaining the experiment, relative to the subject: you are not saying "I will move the wedge in favour of the species the subject is" or you are not saying "I will move the wedge in favour of the predators the subject is avoiding" - these are realistic extensions of the experiment that would anchor the experimentation in predictable ways, concerning how it was that the subject was interacting with the so called "Evolution".

Where I get stuck is, if I say "pay more attention to the subject" you can easily say "the subject varies", which is disingenuous to the fact that I left the subject open to you and you chose mankind, without giving rhyme or reason and began to bottle my arguments in favour of mankind, on the basis of belittling my place in general. This is not science.

There is supposed to be a freedom to approach the truth, guilt or not, so that at the very least, one is able to see one's own reflection in the Law, enough to save the one looking - what I see Evolutionists doing is shutting down everything, but the compulsion to analyze life from the perspective of an endless list of causes: it should be compulsory to relate theory to examples of where the application of that theory has been done (to the same strength) with fewer tenets employed -- for example, if you tested the Evolution of the human species, without the phrase "Evolution occurs to species, not individuals" you would find in principle that it did not affect the survival of the species or the individual
(one less tenet, for the same Evolution!)

I am not suggesting that Evolution have no tenets, but that the validity of the theory is in question over how many it insists are needed. Christianity does not need anything more than the human language, so I am not applying a standard that I am unable to live up to myself. I may not live up to the standard all the time, but partially right, most of the time is moral (moral enough).

Gottservant · Mar 6, 2020

I actually got what was missing, in the Creation/Evolution debate: the emphasis that Evolutionists put on Creation, is atypical, that is the emphasis is on variation - Evolution does not necessarily have to put the emphasis on variation (variation in this context, is an assumption).

For example, say you have to giraffes going for the same high tree: one of them could rely on Evolution to get to the high tree, by varying its DNA and encouraging its offspring to do the same; the other could rely on Creation, and attempt all the extensions of its pre-existing genome, in favour of something that its offspring could do and encourage in their offspring. See the difference there?

In other words, "compounding an existing genome" is more effective for survival, than "varying the approach to something paragenomic" (that is, a part of DNA that otherwise has no function, in principle). There is just an infinite number of ways more, to emphasize DNA that compounds the truth already found, than vary it not knowing what to expect.

There really is no argument, that if you practice something,, you make more gains, than if you attempt something without focus. There is no way to say "but you could give it more time" because you haven't specified what kind of time you would give! "Any amount of time" is not a logical statement, unless you mean "grace" - which is actually a concept that is well understood by Christians and Scientific Christians, alike.

So there you have it, mutation debunked, by consistency.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 6, 2020

Strong in Him said:
How do you know, or how will you ever know, if someone is "partially saved"?

???
Believing in the Holy Spirit and accepting him into our lives is a big part of our faith; it is the Spirit who convicts us of our sin, leads us to Jesus and causes us to be born again.

Jesus told us TO carry our cross - daily.
You are not carrying a literal, heavy, cross, nor are you weak after having been beaten by the Romans.

I don't believe that either of the world wars were caused by a difference of opinion over evolution.
There are scientists who are Christians who believe in evolution; doesn't stop them believing in jesus.

What does that mean?

None of us can be equal to God, so there's no point trying.

Whether or not a person believes in evolution has nothing to do with whether or not they become Christians and receive the Holy Spirit.
And I don't get where "the rapture" - if there is such a thing - comes into this.

We are born again by the Spirit, John 3:3, are told to walk in the Spirit and live in the Spirit. We cannot say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and it is the Holy Spirit who interprets God's word to us, and intercedes for us.
Receiving the Spirit and allowing him to live in us has nothing to do with evolution.

The devil has been defeated on the cross.
We are told to resist him, 1 Peter 5:9, put on spiritual armour to protect ourselves from him, Ephesians 6 and pray that we will be kept safe from him.
Nowhere are we told to "make a way ahead for him".

Evolution has nothing to do with our Christian faith.

Good post and I agree thinking you have an insightful answer to a wandering post. But I disagree on the last statement. Accepting the shakey theory of evolutionary scientists as to mans origins undermines a faith in Christ.

As I’ve listened to those who deny the words in Christ on origins and embrace the teachings of man on this, the fruit is clear. They won’t likely see it but their level of understanding of Christ remains immature.

Of course that’s not the only reason believers remain immature in their knowledge of God, but it is one. This is evident when you ask them for explanations.

Gottservant · Mar 6, 2020

I think the pragmatism of Evolution comes down to: "the one that makes
Evolution possible for others, has more utility than the one that makes Evolution possible"

People buy into Evolution, as if they are gaining that pragmatism, but in reality they do nothing for it.

Better to speak in parables, as it were,, than reveal the truth and have it trampled (as Jesus said).

Strong in Him · Mar 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Good post and I agree thinking you have an insightful answer to a wandering post. But I disagree on the last statement. Accepting the shakey theory of evolutionary scientists as to mans origins undermines a faith in Christ.

Thank you for your kind comments.

I don't believe that evolution does have anything to do with faith in Christ, however.
As I see it, the message of Genesis 1 is that God created; that tells me that the world came into being through God, he wanted it and had a purpose in creating it. Genesis does not say HOW God created. That is not its purpose - it reveals God, it is not scientific text book.

For me, Genesis 1 does not affect the question "what do you think of Jesus?" I would want to say to anyone, decide what you think of Jesus and if you want a relationship with him, then grapple with some of the deeper questions, like creation/evolution.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 7, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Thank you for your kind comments.

I don't believe that evolution does have anything to do with faith in Christ, however.
As I see it, the message of Genesis 1 is that God created; that tells me that the world came into being through God, he wanted it and had a purpose in creating it. Genesis does not say HOW God created. That is not its purpose - it reveals God, it is not scientific text book.

For me, Genesis 1 does not affect the question "what do you think of Jesus?" I would want to say to anyone, decide what you think of Jesus and if you want a relationship with him, then grapple with some of the deeper questions, like creation/evolution.

Yes. I agree that the question of origins has nothing to do with faith in Christ at first. What he says about sin and forgiveness is the question.

But later how do believers deal with what God told Moses was not true if evolutionary origins are embraced? Worse, how do they deal with Jesus talking Abel as a real person and from the beginning man and woman were created? And all the other references to Adam in the NT by Paul and other knowledgeable writers? If they got Adam wrong, how do we know they understood Jesus rightly?

Dorothy Mae · Mar 7, 2020

Fact of the matter is, real
open scientific exploration into origins strengthens one’s faith but one cannot earn a living in the field as no intelligence is allowed in the halls of biology in the subject or origins. They have eliminated the right answer and pursue anything but the truth.

Strong in Him · Mar 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Yes. I agree that the question of origins has nothing to do with faith in Christ at first. What he says about sin and forgiveness is the question.

Dorothy Mae said:
But later how do believers deal with what God told Moses was not true if evolutionary origins are embraced? Worse, how do they deal with Jesus talking Abel as a real person and from the beginning man and woman were created? And all the other references to Adam in the NT by Paul and other knowledgeable writers? If they got Adam wrong, how do we know they understood Jesus rightly?

That's not creation/evolution though.

The way I see it is that God created. He created the moon and stars, trees and plants, the seasons, seas, sea life and so on. God wanted to create, had a purpose for creating and declared it to be good; this is what Genesis says - the origins of the universe began with God.
Genesis doesn't say HOW God created - he might have made everything, fully formed and mature in an instant, or he may have created saplings, tadpoles, seeds etc and stuff grew over time. One "day" in Genesis does not have to mean 24 hours as we know it. I'm told the Hebrews used mostly picture language to communicate, so "day" could be an era of time.

At some point God created humans. It sounds, from Genesis, as though men and women were created instantly, but again, this could have been over a period of time.
However they were made, the first man was called "Adam", which means "man", the first woman was "Eve" and they had children in the normal way. So when Scripture, and Jesus, talk about Adam, Abel, Moses and so on, these were real people. Even if evolution were proved to be true, they would still have been real people.

I tend to agree with John Stott who said that Genesis tells us the WHY about the origins of the world, because God wanted it, and the WHO, a God of love who said that everything was very good; it is up to scientists to tell us the HOW. Others may disagree but, to me, the HOW does not negate what Scripture says about god being the Creator, originator and sustainer of the universe.
I dare say that non Christians may fixate on this to avoid difficult questions about the claims of Jesus - and I am certain that the devil wants to keep people fixated on this, so that he can tie them up in knots and then whisper "see, the Bible can't be trusted."

loveofourlord · Mar 19, 2020

Peter J Barban said:
Fine with me. However, I think that if evolution was a scientific fact, then it would be measurable. So far there are no accepted units of evolution. Evolution currently is just a faith.

ummmm we can measure the rates of mutations and such. Even though saying we could measure it would make it scienfitic is stupid.

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2020

loveofourlord said:
ummmm we can measure the rates of mutations and such. Even though saying we could measure it would make it scienfitic is stupid.

No, there is a point of saturation for everyone - no matter what the subject, each individual has a limit (a personal limit) as to how much of that subject they can know.

When someone reaches that limit, what they know about Evolution, stops as well.

It is just not possible for someone to keep learning, indefinitely.

loveofourlord · Mar 27, 2020

Gottservant said:
No, there is a point of saturation for everyone - no matter what the subject, each individual has a limit (a personal limit) as to how much of that subject they can know.

When someone reaches that limit, what they know about Evolution, stops as well.

It is just not possible for someone to keep learning, indefinitely.

tell that to docotrs that have to routinly go back as new information comes in.

Gottservant · Mar 28, 2020

loveofourlord said:
tell that to docotrs that have to routinly go back as new information comes in.

By "doctors", you mean "the lesser context of the specifically medically educated"?

You seem to be suggesting the perpetual motion of doctors, is somehow valid on the basis of its need?

I am stuck thinking I need to prove faith to Evolutionists, when the Bible says "they're deluded"

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