Can non-Trinitarians be saved?

Neogaia777 · Feb 9, 2020

1an said:
I have had to change my thinking a number of times, and may still have to, the reason being, the Bible is a unified whole and everything should agree. If it doesn't then we have some severe heart-searching to do.

Ditto and/or for me as well, and I agree, etc...

Just wish it wasn't so hard or difficult sometimes though, or as difficult or hard for other people also sometimes, etc, as well, etc...

But it will hopefully make us appreciate the rewards, etc, hopefully, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Francis Drake · Feb 9, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
Does a person have to have a full and accurate and true genuine complete full knowledge, or knowing or understanding of your Trinity before they can be saved...?

Before I (as a trinitarian) respond to the Trinity, may I firstly suggest you make a separation between being Born Again, which is a one time event, and being Saved, which is an ongoing process based on that new birth, and based on what Jesus fulfilled on the Cross!

Understanding the Trinity means understanding both Jesus and the cross. But what sort of person can understand the Message of the Cross?
1Cor1v18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (ie. the unregenerate), but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Paul states above that those who are spiritually dead, perishing, unregenerate, cannot comprehend the cross because it's foolishness to them. Paul shows that understanding the Cross is reserved for those who are already on the journey of being saved.

Paul continues the same theme-
1Cor2v14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Thus the natural man cannot possibly receive the things of God because his spirit is dead to God.

ie. Before anyone can comprehend the Cross, he first has to be born again!
Thus simple logic demonstrates that a spiritually dead man can never become born again through the message of the cross!

It is a scriptural fact that the message of the cross is not meant for the unregenerate, but for saints, those who already had New Birth. To understand the Cross, their spirit needed renewing by God, just as Jesus told Nicodemus.

So, if not by theology of the Cross, how might that man get new birth? Simply by turning to his creator as revealed deep within every man ever born.
John1v1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Jesus was and is our creator, the God seen all through the Old Testament.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
To as many as received Him, the Word, the God of creation, He who also happens to be Jesus, whether we knew it or not.
Nowhere does it say we must possess the theology of Jesus or the cross to be born again, we just need to turn to God in our hearts.

However, not withstanding the above, until born again believers grasp the message of the Cross, they will remain infantile in their walk, and God's salvation will always be feeble in their lives!

Neogaia777 · Feb 9, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Before I (as a trinitarian) respond to the Trinity, may I firstly suggest you make a separation between being Born Again, which is a one time event, and being Saved, which is an ongoing process based on that new birth, and based on what Jesus fulfilled on the Cross!

Understanding the Trinity means understanding both Jesus and the cross. But what sort of person can understand the Message of the Cross?
1Cor1v18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (ie. the unregenerate), but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Paul states above that those who are spiritually dead, perishing, unregenerate, cannot comprehend the cross because it's foolishness to them. Paul shows that understanding the Cross is reserved for those who are already on the journey of being saved.

Paul continues the same theme-
1Cor2v14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Thus the natural man cannot possibly receive the things of God because his spirit is dead to God.

ie. Before anyone can comprehend the Cross, he first has to be born again!
Thus simple logic demonstrates that a spiritually dead man can never become born again through the message of the cross!

It is a scriptural fact that the message of the cross is not meant for the unregenerate, but for saints, those who already had New Birth. To understand the Cross, their spirit needed renewing by God, just as Jesus told Nicodemus.

So, if not by theology of the Cross, how might that man get new birth? Simply by turning to his creator as revealed deep within every man ever born.
John1v1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Jesus was and is our creator, the God seen all through the Old Testament.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
To as many as received Him, the Word, the God of creation, He who also happens to be Jesus, whether we knew it or not.
Nowhere does it say we must possess the theology of Jesus or the cross to be born again, we just need to turn to God in our hearts.

However, not withstanding the above, until born again believers grasp the message of the Cross, they will remain infantile in their walk, and God's salvation will always be feeble in their lives!

What was or is "the message" of the Cross?

And about Jesus being the specific God in and of, and in, the OT, I'm still not sure, etc...

Anyway, but what is, or was, or is "the message" of "the Cross", etc...?

I guess you could say it is "the Gospel", but then what is "the Gospel", etc...?

Then I guess you could say "Christ and Him crucified", but what does that mean, and mean "exactly", and in all of its full detail, etc...?

God Bless!

Salvadore · Feb 9, 2020

The Trinity is a difficult concept. It took me years to understand it. Some people have difficulty wrapping their minds around it. I can't judge. God is fair.

Quasiblogo · Feb 9, 2020

Andrewn said:
Oneness Pentecostals, LDS, and JW are major non-Trinitarian groups. Are there other significant non-Trinitarians? Can non-Trinitarians be saved?

I too cannot lump LDS and JWs with Oneness folks. Concerning the latter, perhaps, just perhaps—but only God knows. I attended a Oneness Church with one of my brother in Oklahoma once. I had no idea what they stood for. It had every bit the feel of a trinitarian Pentecostal Church, except (1) a person was baptized in Jesus’ Name only (with much exhortation by the pastor as to why) and (2) I about hit the ceiling when the person sitting next to me let out a scream at the top of his lungs (it was later explained to me he was screaming in the spirit). I use a small “s”, because—no way ... But what remains riveted in my memory was the testimony of a Washington State resident (a man in his 40’s, as Nordic looking as can be). He had been in Mexico for a number of years. He had a flying ministry, and he would fly to remote and no-go (hostile to “Protestants”) places and do aerial drops of tracts, etc. I was stunned as this man spoke English with the thickest of Mexican accents. I have never witnessed a greater example of cultural assimilation by a missionary.

GenemZ · Feb 9, 2020

Andrewn said:
Oneness Pentecostals, LDS, and JW are major non-Trinitarian groups. Are there other significant non-Trinitarians? Can non-Trinitarians be saved?

Some can be saved.

They just can not know with certainty that they are saved. They can not be made secure in knowing their salvation. Many will keep attempting to be saved by works for that reason.

For to know with certainty you are saved? It takes the filling of the Holy Spirit walking in grace that enables, to be made able to see and accept that God is a Trinity.

That is not to say that every saved person can understand how God can be a Trinity. But, because Scriptures say its so? They will simply believe it "by faith." Faith..

Non-Trinitarians fail the faith by grace, test. It reveals they are walking in religious flesh, not the Spirit. They believe the Scriptures in a legalistic way. In a way like the religious leaders did in Jesus day.

grace and peace...

Euodius · Feb 12, 2020

Andrewn said:
Oneness Pentecostals, LDS, and JW are major non-Trinitarian groups. Are there other significant non-Trinitarians? Can non-Trinitarians be saved?

… yes, because God will save whom He wills, HOWEVER, these groups and beliefs are incredibly harmful to the soul of the participant. The cruelty of heresy is exactly that, it declines those caught in it from salvation - the soul is put in grave risk. We can say grave risk precisely because God himself gave us the means of salvation which is kept in tradition, recorded in scripture, and to be lived by the faithful. This means is to be strived for.

These heresies are grave distortions of God which create an obstacle in the knowledge of God, misdirecting faith, diminishes the possibility of saving relationship with Christ, and leading many to damnation.

Oberamagau · Feb 21, 2020

Dave L said:
I think God saves people giving them the ability to hear truth when exposed to it. So once exposed to the doctrine of the trinity they will embrace it. Even those unlearned can see the trinity in scripture to a certain degree. Exposure to the Creeds has a major effect on their understanding.

I've been in debates with antitrinitarians to the point of exhaustion. And one thing they all have in common is they cannot see the trinity in the basic trinitarian passages. I have a test I give them and none so far have been able to discern the trinity in a single one of them.

So I believe they are not saved and possibly have the spirit of Antichrist at work in them. According to John who says any who deny Jesus Christ (God the trinity) came in the flesh has not God, but the spirit of Antichrist.

The trinity doesn't save or condemn anyone. Denying Christ birth, life, crucifixion, and ascension is all different than rejecting the Trinity.

Dave L · Feb 22, 2020

Oberamagau said:
The trinity doesn't save or condemn anyone. Denying Christ birth, life, crucifixion, and ascension is all different than rejecting the Trinity.

You do not have the true Christ if you don't see the trinity in scripture. The born again will see it.

Oberamagau · Feb 22, 2020

Dave L said:
You do not have the true Christ if you don't see the trinity in scripture. The born again will see it.

I could say that's it you who doesn't have the true Christ. I've heard it all before how non-Trinitarians believe in a different Christ and a different God etc. How can anybody see something in scripture that Trinitarians even admit is inexplicable and incomprehensible? It makes no sense that one Christian would condemn another over an incoherent, incomprehensible, and inexplicable doctrine.

Web site: Christianity.com

Page: The Doctrine of the Trinity.

While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity (or anything else), it is possible to answer questions like these and come to a solid grasp of what it means for God to be three in one.

Christianity.com Trinity

Look this completely illogical, incoherent, and contradictory statement from that page at Christianity.com.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

Web site: Christianity.com again

Page: God in Three Persons: A Doctrine We Barely Understand

Christianity.com Trinity

On that page - the Trinitarian condemnation of others -

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic.

I replied to that blog- I was nice - they deleted my replies. Every blog I've been on deletes my replies because they were debunked and it's easy to debunk the Trinity.

Same type of incoherent statement...

"When we say these things we mean that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but they are not three gods but only one God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father, but each is God individually and yet they are together the one true God of the Bible."

So what they are saying is the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Then comes the absurdity.

The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father.

__________________________________________________

Web site: BBC Religions.

Page: A difficult but fundamental concept within Christianity, the Trinity is the belief that God is three separate persons but is still a single God.

Trinity

____________________

Web site: CARM - Matt Slick

Page: What is the Trinity

"Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp,..."

Trinity

_________________________________________________

Web site: All about God.

Page: Trinity doctrine.

Trinity Doctrine - How Can We Comprehend It?

The most difficult thing about the Trinity Doctrine is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.

Trinitarians admit it can't be explained or understood. To condemn others over this doctrine is wrong.

Dave L · Feb 22, 2020

Oberamagau said:
I could say that's it you who doesn't have the true Christ. I've heard it all before how non-Trinitarians believe in a different Christ and a different God etc. How can anybody see something in scripture that Trinitarians even admit is inexplicable and incomprehensible? It makes no sense that one Christian would condemn another over an incoherent, incomprehensible, and inexplicable doctrine.

Web site: Christianity.com

Page: The Doctrine of the Trinity.

While we cannot fully understand everything about the Trinity (or anything else), it is possible to answer questions like these and come to a solid grasp of what it means for God to be three in one.

Christianity.com Trinity

Look this completely illogical, incoherent, and contradictory statement from that page at Christianity.com.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

Web site: Christianity.com again

Page: God in Three Persons: A Doctrine We Barely Understand

Christianity.com Trinity

On that page - the Trinitarian condemnation of others -

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic.

I replied to that blog- I was nice - they deleted my replies. Every blog I've been on deletes my replies because they were debunked and it's easy to debunk the Trinity.

Same type of incoherent statement...

"When we say these things we mean that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but they are not three gods but only one God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father, but each is God individually and yet they are together the one true God of the Bible."

So what they are saying is the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Then comes the absurdity.

The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father.

__________________________________________________

Web site: BBC Religions.

Page: A difficult but fundamental concept within Christianity, the Trinity is the belief that God is three separate persons but is still a single God.

Trinity

____________________

Web site: CARM - Matt Slick

Page: What is the Trinity

"Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp,..."

Trinity

_________________________________________________

Web site: All about God.

Page: Trinity doctrine.

Trinity Doctrine - How Can We Comprehend It?

The most difficult thing about the Trinity Doctrine is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.

Trinitarians admit it can't be explained or understood. To condemn others over this doctrine is wrong.

The spiritually blind cannot grasp the trinity. They think materialistically and the laws of physics make it impossible to understand. Only the born again (saved) can grasp it at a spiritual level.

Andrewn · Feb 22, 2020

Oberamagau said:
Christianity.com Trinity

Look this completely illogical, incoherent, and contradictory statement from that page at Christianity.com.

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

Oberamagau said:
Web site: BBC Religions.

Page: A difficult but fundamental concept within Christianity, the Trinity is the belief that God is three separate persons but is still a single God.

The definition of the word "person" is controversial and is variable in different cultures. Using the English word "person" will continue to be a stumbling block for everyone who use their minds: both Christians and non-Christians. It's a great way to turn people away.

Oberamagau · Feb 22, 2020

Dave L said:
The spiritually blind cannot grasp the trinity. They think materialistically and the laws of physics make it impossible to understand. Only the born again (saved) can grasp it at a spiritual level.

All you're doing is building yourself up. There is no such thing as spiritual blindness with an undecipherable - incoherent doctrine. Being 'spiritual' or born again has nothing to do with understanding Trinity because it's not a spiritual doctrine - it's 100% manmade. It began with Tertullian but was mostly devised by Bishop and Saint - Athanasius, then the Catholic's accepted it for political reasons.

Dave L · Feb 22, 2020

Oberamagau said:
All you're doing is building yourself up. There is no such thing as spiritual blindness with an undecipherable - incoherent doctrine. Being 'spiritual' or born again has nothing to do with understanding Trinity because it's not a spiritual doctrine - it's 100% manmade. It began with Tertullian but was mostly devised by Bishop and Saint - Athanasius, then the Catholic's accepted it for political reasons.

Only the pure in heart can see God. This means only the Born Again can see him as he is.

Concord1968 · Feb 22, 2020

Oberamagau said:
All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic.

Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums
According to the rules of this forum, belief in the Trinity is an absolute requirement to be considered Christian.

Oberamagau · Feb 22, 2020

Andrewn said:
The definition of the word "person" is controversial and is variable in different cultures. Using the English word "person" will continue to be a stumbling block for everyone who use their minds: both Christians and non-Christians. It's a great way to turn people away.

Dave L said:
Only the pure in heart can see God. This means only the Born Again can see him as he is.

Again, all you're doing is building yourself up. If you understand God as triune that's fine. It doesn't make you any more spiritual - it doesn't make you born again - and it doesn't mean you view GOD correctly. It just means you've accepted a theory.

Dave L · Feb 22, 2020

Oberamagau said:
Again, all you're doing is building yourself up. If you understand God as triune that's fine. It doesn't make you any more spiritual - it doesn't make you born again - and it doesn't mean you view GOD correctly. It just means you've accepted a theory.

So would you think I was OK if I lied about my beliefs, agreeing with you?

Euodius · Feb 22, 2020

Oberamagau said:
How can anybody see something in scripture that Trinitarians even admit is inexplicable and incomprehensible?

None claim that the trinity is not apprehensible, but in great hubris could anyone claim comprehension (which implies a totality of knowledge) of the divine - but what you do show is your lack of apprehension in religious matters. Inexplicable is never claimed by the educated.

"Trias: ‘name which unites things united by nature, and never allows those which are inseparable to be scattered by a number which separates,’ says St. Gregory Nazianzen. Two is the number which separates, three the number which transcends all separation: the one and the many find themselves gathered and circumscribed in the Trinity. ‘When I say God, I mean Father, Son and Holy Ghost; for Godhead is neither diffused beyond these, so as to introduce a multitude of gods, nor yet bounded by a smaller compass than these, so as to condemn us for a poverty-stricken conception of deity, either Judaizing to save the monarchy, or falling into Hellenism by the multitude of our gods.’ St. Gregory Nazianzen is not seeking to vindicate the trinity of persons before the human reason: he simply shows the insufficiency of any number other than three. But we may ask whether the idea of number can be applied to God; whether we do not thus submit the divinity to an exterior determination, to a form proper to our understanding— that of the number, three. To this objection St. Basil replies as follows: ‘we do not count by addition, passing from the one to the many by increase; we do not say: one, two, three, or first, second and third. ‘For I am God, the first, and I am the last. Now we have never, even to the present time, heard of a second God; but adoring God of God, confessing the individuality of the hypostases, we dwell in the monarchy without dividing the theology into fragments.’ In other words, there is no question here of a material number which serves for calculation and is in no wise applicable in the spiritual sphere, where there is no quantitative increase. The threefold number is not, as we commonly understand it, a quantity; when it relates to the indivisibly united divine hypostases, the ‘sum’ of which is always the unity, 3=1, it expresses the ineffable order within the Godhead."

Oberamagau · Feb 22, 2020

Andrewn said:
The definition of the word "person" is controversial and is variable in different cultures. Using the English word "person" will continue to be a stumbling block for everyone who use their minds: both Christians and non-Christians. It's a great way to turn people away.

Concord1968 said:
Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums
According to the rules of this forum, belief in the Trinity is an absolute requirement to be considered Christian.

This is what the rule states -

"It is considered blasphemy to insult or mock Christianity or any part of the Trinity-Father (God), Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Honest debate about the nature of God and Christian Theology is allowed, but derogatory remarks are not. Contemptuous remarks regarding Christianity or Christian practices are not allowed."

I didn't insult or post any derogatory remarks. In fact condemning others over the trinity could be labelled a derogatory remark.

grasping the after wind · Feb 22, 2020

Correct me if I am mistaken but I do not think the thief on the cross that Jesus told would be in paradise was a Trinitarian. Probably the idea of god as a Trinity never crossed( no pun intended ) his mind. To be firmly in the Trinitarian camp, one must first have to have encountered the idea. Baptized infants most likely have no conception of the idea. I don't see any evidence that any of the early church writers had a clear idea of what we now consider to be whole the Trinitarian doctrine. Just because something is true does not mean it is necessary to understand it before being saved. I still do not understand it. I simply accept it without having the foggiest idea how it works despite many attempts by people to explain it to me. Prior to Tertullian, no one had a clear Trinitarian understanding, only a vague idea of the nature of God within Himself. Were all of those persecuted for the sake of belief in Christ prior to Tertullian unsaved ? I think not.

Can non-Trinitarians be saved?

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