LDS Why do Mormons really not understand the Cross?

dzheremi said:

THE CROSS IS OBEDIENCE!

Who was obedient unto death upon the Cross, saying "It is finished"? What is finished, and from Whom did "it" come" to begin with? In the victorious sacrifice of the cross, we see ultimate obedience, the ultimate expression of fidelity and love, the ultimate expression of every virtue that you would praise (rightly) as being the whole of the faith.

The last words spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ from the cross were "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." It is our desire as Christians to say the same at the end of our lives, but it is only through Christ's defeat of death on the cross that we actually can! For it is Christ Who has redeemed us in defeating death by death and offering life to those who were in the tombs (to borrow liberally from the Byzantine troparion, because it's a very concise way of putting it).

So "focusing too much"? No sir. That does not compute. That is akin to saying "You focus too much on salvation", since that what the cross is! Or "You focus too much on eternal life", since (again) that is what the cross is!

It is your faulty understanding, given to you in Mormonism, that makes it seem like it is focusing too much on the cross, but if you were to understand it as Christians do, it would no longer seem that way. I'm sorry, but we are not responsible for the errors imbibed in Mormonism. We can only present the true Christian theology of the cross, shared in its own way by all (as I showed earlier in the Protestant, Catholic, EO, OO videos), and hope that some day, by the grace of God sooner rather than later, it will 'click'. Lord have mercy.

Traditional Protestant hymn

Sermon on the theology of the cross, St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church in Cleveland, OH, given by Fr. Mikhail Mikhail. As the priest says, "You cannot enjoy the joy of resurrection without sharing the crucifixion, without carrying the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; as He Himself said, 'If you would like to be my disciples, deny yourselves, carry the cross, and follow me.'"

This is really it, my friend. The cross is essential to being Christian, or even in having Christianity. That does not mean "I am a Christian because I wear a cross pendant" or "I am a Christian because there is a cross on the building I go to every Sunday" or any other horribly reductionist statement a person could make (as past threads have wrongly seen it as decoration or personal choice, when it is in fact theology). It is rather the simple recognition that it was upon the cross that our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ defeated death, freeing us from it and offering us life if we do as He said (again, there's that obedience you claim focusing on the cross takes away!) in denying ourselves, taking up the cross ourselves, and following Him. It is upon the cross that He died so that He may descend into Hades and free those imprisoned there, and then rise again on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, defeating death by His death. Thus the cross is actually the defeat of death, the defeat of sin, the granting of eternal life, the protection of all who invoke it (as Fr. Mikhail points out in his sermon, it has been this way for a very, very long time), and many other things which could last many more paragraphs.

Put simply, as the scriptures themselves put it: it is foolishness to those who are perishing, but for us it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

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dzheremi said:

Again, it's not a competition (cf. post #93).

And don't tell Christians what will be of most worth to them. From replies like this it is sadly quite clear that you are nowhere near having the slightest clue what that is.

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Phoebe Ann said:

Mormons confused me when they said,"We should focus on the Savior's life, not His death." I paid attention to the hymns they sang in church:

There is a green hill far away,
Without a city wall,
Where the dear Lord was crucified,
Who died to save us all.

Text: Cecil Frances Alexander, 1818-1895, of the Church of Ireland.

Why were Mormons singing a hymn she wrote about the crucifixion?

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He is the way said:

Are you now the leader of the Christians now?

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dzheremi said:

Of course not. But notice how I am also not telling you Mormons "This is what should be most important to you." It's better to me to contrast and compare beliefs and point out the differences that matter, rather than dictate. I'm not the standard of Christian belief (notice how none of you are Coptic Orthodox, and I'm not freaking out about that); none of us are. The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is the standard.

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He is the way said:

Do you believe the Nicene Creed is the word of God?

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dzheremi said:

I believe that the Creed was given to our fathers at the council by the direct action of the Holy Spirit, Who is God, in illuminating their souls and minds just as He had those gathered in the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost, yes.

I do not believe that the Creed is a part of Holy Scripture, but rather is the distillation of the foundational theology of the same Church that wrote, canonized, and interprets that same scripture. (Just trying to anticipate a possible objection. )

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He is the way said:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:20)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

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• One of the roles of the living prophets is to explain to us the meaning of what prophets of past ages said. Discuss 2 Peter 1:20–21 with students.
  
  
• Discuss the following statement from Elder Marion G. Romney, then an Assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, in which he emphasized the importance of prophetic interpretation of scripture:

• “Another fundamental to bear in mind in our search is that the manifestations of the Father’s will to this generation did not cease with what is written in the Doctrine and Covenants. He has not left us unguided to jangle over the interpretations of those revelations, nor does he leave us ignorant of his will on current issues. He has given us living prophets to interpret those revelations and to declare to us his will on present problems” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1945, 89)...

dzheremi said:

What does this have to do with the creed?

There is no prophecy about the coming of the BOM anywhere ever outside of the minds of Mormons, so that can't be it...

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Phoebe Ann said:

Mormonism
Accept the Prophet's interpretation; he is authorized to tell you what the scripture means. That's especially interesting when a current prophet contradicts a previous one.

From their lesson manual:

• One of the roles of the living prophets is to explain to us the meaning of what prophets of past ages said. Discuss 2 Peter 1:20–21 with students.
  
  
• Discuss the following statement from Elder Marion G. Romney, then an Assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, in which he emphasized the importance of prophetic interpretation of scripture:

• “Another fundamental to bear in mind in our search is that the manifestations of the Father’s will to this generation did not cease with what is written in the Doctrine and Covenants. He has not left us unguided to jangle over the interpretations of those revelations, nor does he leave us ignorant of his will on current issues. He has given us living prophets to interpret those revelations and to declare to us his will on present problems” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1945, 89)...

Elder Marriner W. Merrill, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said: “The Bible is a good thing, the Book of Mormon is a good thing, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants is a good thing. They are the words of the Lord. But I say that the living oracles of the Church are worth more than all of them. If we could have but one of them, give me the living oracles of the Priesthood for my guidance. Of course, it is proper and a good thing to have it all, because the living oracles of the Church work in harmony with what is written, and their counsel will not come in conflict with the words of the Lord in former ages. But the conditions of mankind change. The counsel that was suitable for the Saints forty years ago may not be so suitable today. Hence the importance of having in our midst the living oracles of God to guide us day by day in the performance of our labors” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1897, 6).
Lesson 8: Prophets Interpret Scripture

The printed scripture concerning dietary laws:

D&C 89
1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man.

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground.

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

Shouldn't that say "Use water for communion, don't drink hot soup or hot chocolate or hot cider, use water instead of wine at weddings, only drink iced tea and coffee, etc.?"

2019:
LDS Church clarifies 'Word of Wisdom' on vaping, green tea, coffee, marijuana, opioids
LDS Church clarifies 'Word of Wisdom' on vaping, green tea, coffee, marijuana, opioids

Whatever the prophet decides, you should do.

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He is the way said:

As you said, the creed is not scripture, therefore it must be a private interpretation of scripture. The Bible warns against private interpretation.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:20)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

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dzheremi said:

This is so ridiculous. What is 'private' about the Nicene Creed, which is known by basically everyone in one way or another, and declared multiple times every day by millions upon millions of Christians, both in liturgy and daily prayer? (It is part of every hour of the Agpeya, the Coptic Orthodox book of daily prayer, for instance.)

Anyway, in case it needs to be pointed out (which I wouldn't think it does, but here we are), the Creed is in no way an interpretation of scripture. This should be obvious when one considers that the Creed of Nicaea was written in 325 and the canon of scripture was not given in the form we would recognize until 367 (and in some cases the canon was even set well after the Creed was given its final form via Constantinople I in 381, e.g., the third Synod of Carthage in 397). The fact that you find the scriptural references pertaining to each line of it in places like this website's statement of faith only shows that it is rooted in the scriptures, not that it is itself an interpretation of them. We have many commentaries and homilies on specific books or passages of scripture from both before and after the conciliar age -- those are interpretations of scripture. The Creed, rather, is a basic outline of the faith held by the Church, which makes it no more an interpretation of the scriptures than, say, the Mormon Articles of Faith are.

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dzheremi said:

It really isn't, and we don't need some anti-Christ, pagan, polytheist false religion like Mormonism or any of its adherents to tell us how to interpret the scriptures that we wrote. (St. Mark, the first Pope/Bishop and founder of my particular Church, wrote the Gospel according to St. Mark.)

The interpretations of Mormonism and Mormons carry no more weight than the interpretations of any other non-Christian religion that we do not allow to interpret our scriptures for us, like Islam, Judaism, Baha'i, etc. I'm sorry to have to be so blunt, but you are utterly decieved in your failed attempt to set the Church against its own scriptures, which were produced by it, within it, and for it, not by, within, or for any other religion, Mormonism included. You are not a Christian and Mormonism is not a Christian religion, so just as you would not accept a Shintoist or Jain or whatever interpretation of the BOM (and there probably wouldn't need to be a long list of reasons why...it just follows from the fact that those people do not belong to the community), we do not accept your/your religion's false interpretation of the Christian holy scriptures, either OT or NT.

You're going to have to come up with a lot more than these lame "Nuh uh" type responses and other declarative statements if you want to seriously challenge any Christian as concerns the meanings of the scriptures, or of anything else within Christianity (since you are outside of it by your own choice to follow Mormonism). The Christian interpretation of what are again our own scriptures, which we wrote, have 2,000+ years of backing from all schools of interpretation (e.g., Alexandrian, Antiochian, Roman, etc.), and from all resulting communities. The Mormon interpretation started in 1830 (basically last Tuesday, in the view of a 2,000 year old faith), with its only antecedents being in those groups which were never accepted by the Church in the first place (e.g., various Gnostics, Arians, Muslims, etc.), which does not bode well for its claim to be the 'restoration' of the original Church, which doesn't need restoring in the first place because it never went anywhere.

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dzheremi said:

You have shown bullcorn! All that anything you have posted shows that Mormons and Christians disagree on the interpretation of the scriptures, but my point is that they're Christian scriptures -- they're not Mormon scriptures (no Mormon wrote them, or canonized them), except by the fact that JS started a Christianity-based religion, and attempt to abscond with them in the process via his faulty 'revelations'.

You have your own scriptures -- your BOM, POGP, and D&C. You wouldn't take any non-Mormon's interpretation of those seriously, so why on earth do you expect that you should be able to come here and tell Christians that you've have shown anything in favor of your religion or disfavoring ours?

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. That's not even just my opinion (though that is my opinion) -- that's what the preserved evidence in the writings of the fathers and the early Church itself (including most definitely the Creed) show when you compare those to Mormon claims about what the Bible means and what the Christian faith consists of.

You're out of your element. This is not an LDS website, and nobody is going to take you seriously when all you can say is "Look at this verse; doesn't it prove how Christianity is wrong about XYZ?", as though no Christian or Christian church has ever dealt with some heretic perverting the Bible.

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