The Problem With Evangelism

topher694 said:

The prophetic can be a powerful tool in evangelism, but no prophet operates with 100% certainty. That would be exceedingly dangerous and lead to pride and destruction. Humility should be one of the core characteristics of a prophet.

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Really? How does that pan out, exactly? Jesus told His 12 impending prophets:

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you" (Jn 16).

According to you, a prophet is NOT guided into all truth. He never knows for sure the specifics of God's will. Apparently he runs around aimlessly playing guessing games as to what he's supposed to be doing with his life, how best to advise the church, and how best to engage the lost. I'm just extrapolating your words.


And lest you think the above passage is just for the 12, that same John wrote the following words to his own disciples:

"I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him" (1 John 2).

He's using essentially the same language articulated in John 16. There is not even an INKLING here that God intended to forever strand His people in perpetual uncertainty as to His will.

nolidad said:

Well define what you mean by prophetic evangelism. Over 46 ears I have seen the term "prophet" for NT people defined several ways. I ask so as to not misunderstand what you ask.

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JAL had used the term. I was asking him to define it.

For me it means being led by the Spirit in our witness to others, using the manifestations (gifts) of the Holt Spirit to minister to people. Especially a word of knowledge/wisdom and prayer for healing/or restoration. I like what the Apostle says here.


1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

You said of me.

topher694 said:

He claims 100 billion souls are at stake, but advocates doing absolutely nothing about it unless his self-created ideal of 100% certainty is met. So what happens to those 100 billion souls if we follow his advice and wait? How many of those 100 billion die everyday while we wait? What about them? The only thing that is 100% certain is they will not see heaven if no one tells them about Jesus.

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No one tells them about Jesus? Probably most people who will ever read this thread live in a country where there is a church every couple of street corners. Those churches have welcome-signs broadcasting Jesus - and often radio and TV shows to boot. So why aren't more people drawn to the gospel? Two reasons:

(1) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them." (John 6)
(2) "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers" (2Cor 4)

Preaching the written Word has no power to help with 1 and 2. (Oddly enough, even in the year 2020, there are still Christians who associate the written Word/written law with God's power).

Solution: "As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning."

Winning against whom? Merely the human enemies? I trust you are not so naive. Prayer is the solution to both #1 and #2. Want a sample text? In Psalm 18, David cries out to God who, in response, opens a heavenly aperture and thunders down through it scattering his enemies - the demonic ones no doubt. That's revival. Again, it only happens in response to prayer - recall that Luke is the theologian of prayer/revival:

And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. ( Luke 3)

(Luke was the only writer who recorded that this outpouring was in response to prayer). As I recall, the Greek word there (meaning 'rent asunder'), occurs about 17 times in the NT, and always refers to a physical bifurcation, for example torn fabric.

Please continue posting, Topher694, as I suspect some readers of this thread will want me to continue demonstrating how catastrophically mistaken your views are. People who think like you are the single greatest threat to the 100 billion souls.

JAL said:

People who think like you are the single greatest threat to the 100 billion souls.

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Says the guy who refuses to do personal evangelism.

What's that crackling noise? Am I hearing an old wineskin creaking? Sorry if that sounds harsh but, based on what I've read on this thread, I suspect you and topher694 have invested so many years in mis-evangelism that you cannot emotionally bear correction. Believe me, I get it. I would react exactly the same way in your shoes. I too should be classified as an old wineskin, therefore, except that I happen to be in the right (if revivalists like Charles Finney and Yonggi Cho have any say in the matter).

Saint Steven said:

Says the guy who refuses to do personal evangelism.

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I did it for 12 years and found it ineffective - confirming everything what I write here. Plus, there's a church on every street corner where I live. Everybody around me is already evangelized - most of them just don't want to hear it.

Jesus commanded His prophets to evangelize. Show me in Scripture where Paul commanded the churches to go out and evangelize. He does command the prophet Timothy to evangelize, but not the churches. Here's what Paul told the churches:

"Eagerly desire spiritual things, especially the gift of prophecy" (1Cor 14:1).

Should I believe you? Or Paul? I'll go with Paul's advice for now.

And did I neglect to mention? Paul attested to the evangelistic power of prophecy, in that same chapter:

"But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” (1Cor 14:24)

So when Paul says, a few chapters earlier...

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power"(1Cor 2)

It's pretty clear what he means. The Greek word dunamis indicates a charismatic show of power. Paul preached "by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God" (Rom 15).

How do we get such power?

[They prayed] "Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly" (Acts 4).

JAL said:

Here's what Paul told the churches:

"Eagerly desire spiritual things, especially the gift of prophecy" (1Cor 14:1).

Should I believe you? Or Paul? I'll go with Paul's advice for now.

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That was to edify the church, not for evangelism.

Saint Steven said:

That was to edify the church, not for evangelism.

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Prophecy is multifunctional. Take a look at verse 24.

Again, you have not a SINGLE VERSE where Paul commands the churches to evangelize.

God didn't create Adam out of need for someone to carry on evangelistic ministry. He created us for prayer/praise to HIM. That's where He wanted us to devote most of our efforts. All too often, evangelicals confuse the 99% with the 1%.

Three outpourings of divine Fire:

"When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple." (2 chron 7)

"The prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed...Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice" (1 Kings 18)

"[The disciples] all joined together constantly in prayer...They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them" (Acts 1-2).

Anyone see any common denominators here?

No? Well in that case, let's have a look at Luke 11:13. Luke is the theologian of prayer, after all:

"How much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Lk 11:13).

JAL said:

Prophecy is multifunctional. Take a look at verse 24.

Again, you have not a SINGLE VERSE where Paul commands the churches to evangelize.

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It seems that Evangelicalism was born from the teaching of Christ, not Paul.
The so-called Great Commission to evangelize the world.

However, now we understand that the so-called Great Commission is to make disciples, not merely converts. I'm discipling my agnostic best friend. He'll have to tell me when he thinks he's saved. I vowed to never tell him that he was going to hell. (he asked me straight away) And this was long before I understood Restorationism.

Saint Steven said:

It seems that Evangelicalism was born from the teaching of Christ, not Paul.
The so-called Great Commission to evangelize the world.

However, now we understand that the so-called Great Commission is to make disciples, not merely converts. I'm discipling my agnostic best friend. He'll have to tell me when he thinks he's saved. I vowed to never tell him that he was going to hell. (he asked me straight away) And this was long before I understood Restorationism.

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You're merely advocating one particular flavor of the Great Commission. Again, in reality it was the Great Omission. Neither Jesus nor Paul commanded the churches to go forth and make disciples of all nations. That command was given to His impending prophets/apostles.

Disciples are supposed to be leaders. In Israel, who appointed the kings as leaders? Prophets. In the early church, who appointed the leaders? The apostles/prophets! This is just common sense, because the divine Voice should dictate our affairs. And the only feasible way to recognize the divine Voice is 100% certainty.

Again, I am not entirely opposed to man-made religion (we have to start somewhere after all), as long as we
(1) recognize it for what it is (a crutch) instead of confusing it with real disciples, real churches, real leaders, real evangelism, and so on.
(2) do our utmost to keep our priorities straight, i.e. waiting on the Lord.

And I'm not saying that only prophets can evangelize, although ideally the church would have enough prophets to handle all the evangelism. But evangelism should always be a word of prophecy, no matter who does it. "It will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of my Father speaking through you."

Haven't had much time for the forums lately. But anyway:

Saint Steven said:

Says the guy who refuses to do personal evangelism.

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A likely indicator of our priorities is biblical emphasis, that is, frequency of mention. Prayer is repeatedly emphasized in the epistles of Paul ( Romans 15:30-33; 2 Corinthians 1:10-11; Ephesians 6:19-20; Philippians 1:19-20; Colossians 4:2-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2; Philemon 22). Where Paul wrote:

"I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people" (1Tim)

at least one commentator understands the words in bold to mean, "as a matter of first importance", that is, "above all other things." Which is precisely the strategy that I'm advocating for the church: let's pray for revival. Let's keep praying until we get it.

All the many believers have various gifts and what is unique to them. What there are for universal things to believers would certainly include their prayer to God, which should go on, as far as it would. But for being a testimony for others, there are various ways we might be used for that, it is good that there are all these ways, that others learn something of Christ from the believers, to draw them to Christ for the essential faith.

But what about the other seed that was cast into the earth, the second man, the last Adam, the OBEDIENT SON? Are we going to credit the disobedience of Adam with having more power and authority than the Christ? Are we going to infer that the law of sin and death has an even greater potential than the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? Are we going to believe that the law of sin and death has the power and ability to stretch forth its poisonous tentacles into every area of mankind, to the complete perversion of body, soul, and spirit, and then at the same time draw back in unbelief at the revelation of the Word concerning the law of the Spirit of life (more abundant) in Christ Jesus? Five times in Romans 5 does the apostle Paul use the expression "Much more" relative to the POWER OF THE GRACE OF GOD, IN CONTRAST TO THE SIN OF ADAM. Shall we not believe that there is a greater and MUCH MORE potential in the redeeming grace of Christ, than there is in the law of sin and death? Is there not a MUCH MORE effectual working of the grace of God through the last Adam, than there was of the power of disobedience through the first Adam? In other words, are we going to honor the power of Adam and Satan ABOVE THE REDEEMING POWER OF CHRIST? Shall not the Christ redeem and restore every man that Adam's sin cursed, and make every one of them better men than Adam was? Is that not what MUCH MORE means?

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

But what about -
Are we going to credit the disobedience of Adam with having more power and authority than the Christ? Five times in Romans 5 does the apostle Paul use the expression "Much more" relative to the POWER OF THE GRACE OF GOD, IN CONTRAST TO THE SIN OF ADAM. Shall we not believe that there is a greater and MUCH MORE potential in the redeeming grace of Christ, than there is in the law of sin and death?

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Yes, there is more power from the grace of God than there is from sin in all our lives. Yet God does not choose to override us. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. There is necessarily response needed, faith with repentance to turn from former life with sin separating one from God, which you and I have in our history and all have in their history. God's power works in these lives, while any must respond coming to faith with repentance, which is provided for, now, or they perish.

Everyone in Christ has their own gifts for the gospel being spread to others, there is no one right way for it to be done, by everyone. It does not even need to be a mission for most believers. There are right ways to live, and with that, and openly speaking of God at work, and of Christ, there is godly Christian testimony to others who would see that. That is one of the things to which those who had not yet come to Christ can respond to, with repentance and faith to come to Christ.

FredVB said:

Everyone in Christ has their own gifts for the gospel being spread to others, there is no one right way for it to be done, by everyone. It does not even need to be a mission for most believers. There are right ways to live, and with that, and openly speaking of God at work, and of Christ, there is godly Christian testimony to others who would see that. That is one of the things to which those who had not yet come to Christ can respond to, with repentance and faith to come to Christ.

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Right.
And people don't really like to be the subject of our evangelistic projects. Just another statistic, or a notch on our gun handle. Selling them Jesus with a gospel tract.

I love the opening quote from the OP article.

"In a society full of people who would rather speak than listen, people are starving for someone who is willing to offer them their ears."