When is the fulfillment of Daniel 7:18?

claninja · Feb 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
How can this not be giving His location? The fact He is currently in heaven, and that the text indicates---

If it stated Jesus' location, specifically, whether heaven or earth, this passage wouldn't be debatable.

DavidPT said:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory---where else would He be coming to if not earth?

A similar passage states that Jesus "is about to come" in His Father's glory with His angels. I would argue this is in regards to Christ's ascension to the Father. The greek for "then" can mean distance into the future and not necessarily immediately upon ascension. Thus Christ would ascend or come into His Father's glory with His angels, and then (sometime in the future) He would repay.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is about to come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

Tote (then): of things future; then (at length) when the thing under discussion takes place (or shall have taken place): τότε simply, Matthew 24:23, 40; Matthew 25:1, 34, 37, 41, 44f; opposed to ἄρτι, 1 Corinthians 13:12; καί τότε, Matthew 7:23; Matthew 16:27;

This is consistent with Jesus stating that some standing before him would not die before they saw the son of man "coming IN" in His kingdom.

Matthew 16:28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Thus, I believe the Son of man coming in His glory, with his angels to sit on the throne refers Christ's ascension.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne

This is consistent with

1.) Christ going to heaven to receive the kingdom
Luke 19:12 So He said, “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to lay claim to his kingship and then return.

2.) Christ entering His glory after suffering
Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?”

3.) Christ sitting down on the throne upon ascension
Revelation 3:21 To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

4.) Christ being placed above all in authority in this age and the age to come upon his ascension
Ephesians 1:20-21 which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

I believe the gathering of the sheep and goats refers to the Kingdom, specifically the part where the kingdom is like net gathering "all kinds" of fish, the good and the bad. I believe this to be an ongoing process that started with Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit.

Matthew 13:47 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea and caught all kinds of fish

Matthew 25:32 the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats

I believe the separation for the "good" to receive the kingdom occurs at the end of the age

Matthew 13:49-50 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:23 He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

claninja · Feb 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
This is what the text indicates. It says---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. When? Once this part occurs---the Ancient of days came. Did this coming take place in the first century?

According to NT scripture, When the vineyard owner came to destroy the wicked tenants for killing his son, the saints would be given the kingdom.

Matthew 21:40-46 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’k ? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.l ” When the chief priests and Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew He was speaking about them. Although they wanted to arrest Him, they feared the crowds, because they considered Jesus a prophet.

This was to occur during the 1st century, which would have been during the 4th kingdom: Rome

Matthew 23:35-36 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Daniel 7 and the NT confirm the saints would possess the kingdom around the time of the 4th kingdom. You are going to have to explain why it is more than 4 kingdoms for the saints to possess the kingdom.
Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

DavidPT · Feb 7, 2020

claninja said:
If it stated Jesus' location, specifically, whether heaven or earth, this passage wouldn't be debatable.

In general, you don't believe in logically deducing something? For example. In January at times, the temps were in the low 80s in parts of Illinois.

It doesn't say a thing about it being winter in that statement. Actually it sounds like it could be spring or summer, given the unusual high temps for that time of the year in that part of the country. So if one then logically deduces that this took place in winter, this should be debatable since winter was never specifically mentioned in this statement?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

No matter how one wants to look at this, this is meaning after He has already ascended back into heaven, where He still currently is, in the physical sense anyway. Therefore when verse 32 states---When the Son of man shall come in his glory---it has to be meaning coming to somewhere He presently isn't. And if He is presently in heaven prior to this coming in verse 31, it is then not even remotely unreasonable to logically deduce that He returns to the earth in verse 31.

claninja said:
A similar passage states that Jesus "is about to come" in His Father's glory with His angels. I would argue this is in regards to Christ's ascension to the Father. The greek for "then" can mean distance into the future and not necessarily immediately upon ascension. Thus Christ would ascend or come into His Father's glory with His angels, and then (sometime in the future) He would repay.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is about to come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

I can see myself agreeing with this part---"and then (sometime in the future) He would repay"---but I can't see myself agreeing with this part---"Thus Christ would ascend or come into His Father's glory with His angels"

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The text goes on to say---till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. How does one see that if that is meaning in heaven during His ascension?

DavidPT · Feb 7, 2020

claninja said:
According to NT scripture, When the vineyard owner came to destroy the wicked tenants for killing his son, the saints would be given the kingdom.

Matthew 21:40-46 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’k ? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.l ” When the chief priests and Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew He was speaking about them. Although they wanted to arrest Him, they feared the crowds, because they considered Jesus a prophet.

This was to occur during the 1st century, which would have been during the 4th kingdom: Rome

Matthew 23:35-36 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Daniel 7 and the NT confirm the saints would possess the kingdom around the time of the 4th kingdom. You are going to have to explain why it is more than 4 kingdoms for the saints to possess the kingdom.
Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

I haven't as of yet decided you might be correct, but I do at least acknowledge, for the time being, that this is not a bad argument. Especially by bringing Matthew 21:40-46 into it.

grafted branch · Feb 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
Does this mean you think he can do it alone?

The reason I even bring this up, I'm simply curious who other Premils think satan gets to aid him in deceiving the nations? As for me, I don't really have a good answer for that, yet I remain Premil, regardless. I just can't see him doing all that alone since satan can only be in one place at a time, for one.

One thing to consider about Revelation20:10 whether you’re a premil or not, is this.

KJV “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

The Amplified Bible “Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).”

The KJV has added the word “are” to make the verse easier to understand. The Amplified Bible has instead chosen to use the word “were”. Depending on which interpretation is more accurate, it can have an impact on how other verse are to be viewed.

eleos1954 · Feb 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Let's start with verse 18----But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

The question is, when shall they take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever?

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

According to these verses above, does it look like the saints of the most High have already taken the kingdom, thus possessing the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever, during any of these events recorded in the above verses?

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them---And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time---does it look like verse 18 has already been fulfilled during the time of verse 21 which apparently is meaning verse 25 as well? Does not verse 25 give us the length of verse 21, that being until a time and times and the dividing of time?

Does not verse 22 tell us when verse 18 is initially fulfilled?

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

What happens to this little horn at the time, once verse 22 is initially fulfilled? Is it not the following?

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

What happens to the 4th beast once the little horn is given to the burning flame?

Some will tell us all of Daniel 7 has already been fulfilled ages ago. Others will tell us verse 18 and 22 have been fulfilled ages ago, while telling us that Daniel 7:11 is yet to be fulfilled.

The question is, what is Daniel 7 telling us? Is it telling us the same things some of these others are telling us it is telling us? I think not. Obviously the initial fulfillment of verse 22 is in the end of this age and not ages ago instead. That means verse 18 hasn't even been fulfilled yet.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Does it sound like Daniel 7:18 has already been fulfilled according to these verses above? How can verse 5 above not be meaning verse 21 and verse 25 in Daniel 7?

If Daniel 7:22 is yet to be fulfilled, what does that plainly tell us about the timing of the thousand years in Revelation 20? Does it not tell us, if Daniel 7:22 is yet to be fulfilled, then so must the thousand years in Revelation 20 be yet to be fulfilled?

Both events are in the future.

Andrewn · Feb 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
In general, you don't believe in logically deducing something? For example. In January at times, the temps were in the low 80s in parts of Illinois.

It doesn't say a thing about it being winter in that statement. Actually it sounds like it could be spring or summer, given the unusual high temps for that time of the year in that part of the country. So if one then logically deduces that this took place in winter, this should be debatable since winter was never specifically mentioned in this statement?

This would only be debatable if one has Korsakoff Syndrome.

Marilyn C · Feb 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
What Scriptures lead you to conclude that?

Rev. 3: 21 plus others.

1 Peter 1: 4 heavenly inheritance.
Col. 1: 5 heavenly hope.
Eph. 2: 6 seated together in heavenly places.
Phil. 3: 14 the upward, on top calling.
Phil. 3: 20 citizenship in heaven.
Heb. 3: 1 heavenly calling.

DavidPT · Feb 7, 2020

Andrewn said:
This would only be debatable if one has Korsakoff Syndrome.

Of course, yet that is beside the point. I simply used an example of logically deducing something not mentioned in the text. I could have used any number of examples, they still would have made the same point.

Marilyn C · Feb 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Oh, yes.

Babylon
Medo Persia
Greece
Rome

Actually they are contemporary as they continue on after the A/C is dealt with.

The British Empire - British Commonwealth & America.
The Soviet Union - Russian Federation.
The EU
Islam

DavidPT · Feb 7, 2020

grafted branch said:
One thing to consider about Revelation20:10 whether you’re a premil or not, is this.

KJV “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

The Amplified Bible “Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).”

The KJV has added the word “are” to make the verse easier to understand. The Amplified Bible has instead chosen to use the word “were”. Depending on which interpretation is more accurate, it can have an impact on how other verse are to be viewed.

It seems to me that this indicates that satan is not thrown into the lake of fire when the beast and false prophet are. And Revelation 19 proves it since it makes zero mention of satan getting cast into the lof at that time as well.

CharismaticLady · Feb 7, 2020

Marilyn C said:
Actually they are contemporary as they continue on after the A/C is dealt with.

The British Empire - British Commonwealth & America.
The Soviet Union - Russian Federation.
The EU
Islam

The descriptions of the beasts were known for Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece and Rome, otherwise I would look for contemporary. What is missing are the feet of clay and iron

Marilyn C · Feb 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
The descriptions of the beasts were known for Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece and Rome, otherwise I would look for contemporary. What is missing are the feet of clay and iron

They may have been known for those but that is not logical. Those world rulers have all been judged of God and therefore cannot continue on into the millennium. The A/C gets judged and those other 3 kingdoms are given an extension of life. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

CharismaticLady · Feb 7, 2020

Marilyn C said:
They may have been known for those but that is not logical. Those world rulers have all been judged of God and therefore cannot continue on into the millennium. The A/C gets judged and those other 3 kingdoms are given an extension of life. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

The descriptions are the same as in other parts of the book.

Babylon:
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

Medo Persia:
5 “And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’

Greece:
6 “After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

Rome:
7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Marilyn, the way that you see these, who is the little horn?

Marilyn C · Feb 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
The descriptions are the same as in other parts of the book.

Marilyn, the way that you see these, who is the little horn?

Hi CL,

So how do those 4 historic World Rulers you mentioned, which God has judged and they are no more, how do they get to live some more after the A/C is done away with. Those world rulers are all GONE, no more, passed, historic.

The `little horn` is the peace maker of Islam who will arrive shortly, after the Russian war now on the horizon.

CharismaticLady · Feb 7, 2020

Marilyn C said:
Hi CL,

So how do those 4 historic World Rulers you mentioned, which God has judged and they are no more, how do they get to live some more after the A/C is done away with. Those world rulers are all GONE, no more, passed, historic.

The `little horn` is the peace maker of Islam who will arrive shortly, after the Russian war now on the horizon.

I'm open to the future Antichrist being Islamic, as they hate both Israel and Christians (the other offspring of Rev. 12). But I was looking in particular to Daniel's visions and their correct interpretation regarding the Jews. They are as I said. The fourth beast had iron teeth indicative of Rome. There is no getting around that fact.

Daniel 8 is also regarding the Jews, as is Daniel 9. But I also know that God uses paradigms as Daniel 8 is a foreshadow of Daniel 9, and they both may foreshadows of yet the last 7 years before the second coming of Daniel 7. Looking back at the statue, the legs were iron and the Roman Empire, but then the feet are more in line with end times with ten toes and a mixture of iron and clay. Some nations are weak, and some strong. You need to focus on the ten toes. That's where we are now, and not on the four nations up until 70 AD.

Marilyn C · Feb 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
I'm open to the future Antichrist being Islamic, as they hate both Israel and Christians (the other offspring of Rev. 12). But I was looking in particular to Daniel's visions and their correct interpretation regarding the Jews. They are as I said. The fourth beast had iron teeth indicative of Rome. There is no getting around that fact.

Daniel 8 is also regarding the Jews, as is Daniel 9. But I also know that God uses paradigms as Daniel 8 is a foreshadow of Daniel 9, and they both may foreshadows of yet the last 7 years before the second coming of Daniel 7. Looking back at the statue, the legs were iron and the Roman Empire, but then the feet are more in line with end times with ten toes and a mixture of iron and clay. Some nations are weak, and some strong. You need to focus on the ten toes. That's where we are now, and not on the four nations up until 70 AD.

That`s good that you are thinking that way as well. Now the fourth beast had `iron teeth,` however that does NOT mean Rome. The legs were the symbol of Rome. The metals were the symbols of the STRENGTH of those World Rulers.

The Moslems are a `divided` Federation - Sunni & Shi-ite. When the Shi-ites get defeated from the Russian war, then the Sunnis will be in the majority. Thus the 10 toes will be -

3 - Syria, Iraq & Jordan. (ancient Assyria) the power base of the peace negotiator. (A/C)
7 - The GCC Gulf Cooporation Council (with Yeman)

Marilyn C · Feb 7, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
I'm open to the future Antichrist being Islamic, as they hate both Israel and Christians (the other offspring of Rev. 12.

You may be interested in this photo. It shows the next host leader of the G20. He is Saudi Arabia`s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. He will be the leader for 2020.

Who looks happy?

claninja · Feb 8, 2020

DavidPT said:
but I can't see myself agreeing with this part---"Thus Christ would ascend or come into His Father's glory with His angels"

This raises some questions for me about your position then:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is about to come with his angels in the glory of his Father,

1.) Do you believe "about to come" means thousands of years?

2.) You don't believe Jesus was in the Glory of his Father with the angels at his ascension to the right hand?

DavidPT said:
The text goes on to say---till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. How does one see that if that is meaning in heaven during His ascension?

"see" doesn't always mean literally with eye balls

3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

When did Jesus come into his kingdom? Scripture is clear it is at his ascension to the Father

Daniel states the son of man is given a kingdom when comes TO the ancient of Days
Daniel 7:13-14 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,

Jesus confirms, through the parable of the 10 minas, that it would be upon his ascension to heaven (far country) that he would received a kingdom.
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

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