When is the fulfillment of Daniel 7:18?

DavidPT

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You are possibly reading the section of Revelation that I found not to be in chronological order.


That is one reason for this thread. That being, what is Daniel 7 telling us about Revelation 19 and 20? Is it telling us that chapter 20 chronologically follows chapter 19? Or is it telling us something else altogether about those 2 chapters?
 
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CharismaticLady

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That is one reason for this thread. That being, what is Daniel 7 telling us about Revelation 19 and 20? Is it telling us that chapter 20 chronologically follows chapter 19? Or is it telling us something else altogether about those 2 chapters?

Daniel 7 is end times. Revelation 19 and 20 are different visions, and are not in chronological order. The lake of fire is after the Millennium. But these chapters have them out of order.

But I could be wrong.
 
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claninja

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Actually I am in full agreement with this, but I doubt we are in agreement as to the timing of Matthew 25:34.

Most likely. Although, I'm not sure how you can overcome the fact that the angel specifically states there would be 4 earthly kingdoms but the saints would possess the kingdom. That would place the time of inheriting the kingdom during Rome, the 4th kingdom.



This appears to contradict a passage you already brought up, Matthew 25:34. None of that is taking place in heaven.

How so? the parable of the Goats and Sheep doesn't give Jesus' location.

Where did Jesus inherit the kingdom. In heaven (luke 19:12, Daniel 7:13-14). So why would it be different for us?

I agree the angel doesn't say, yet I was interested, in general, what one assumes happens to the 4th beast at that time.

i assume this:

Revelation 21:24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Revelation 22:2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

That all depends as to where Daniel 7:22 fits on the timeline of events. Some of us tend to think it is yet to be fulfilled.

Simply using scripture shows Daniel 7:17-18 to be fulfilled. How many kingdoms would be from the time of Daniel until the saints inherit the kingdom? FOUR

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kingdoms who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

Jesus shows that the saints would inherit the kingdom when the wicked tenants would be destroyed at the coming of the vineyard owner in Judgment

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

The wicked tenants were destroyed from 66-70ad, which would have been during the 4th kingdom (rome)

Matthew 21:35-36 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:33-34 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,e right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
 
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CharismaticLady

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That is one reason for this thread. That being, what is Daniel 7 telling us about Revelation 19 and 20? Is it telling us that chapter 20 chronologically follows chapter 19? Or is it telling us something else altogether about those 2 chapters?

Actually I think I am wrong, because the Antichrist is not alive during the Millennium. He is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. And so would the fp be. So maybe the lake of fire was in existence throughout the Millennium. Interesting. I hadn't thought of that before. So maybe the chapters are not out of order, but I'll have to do further reading to see what else is out of order.
 
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claninja

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Can you give me the texts for that statement.

Daniel 7:17-18 ‘These four great beasts are four kingdoms who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’
 
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CharismaticLady

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Daniel 7:17-18 ‘These four great beasts are four kingdoms who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

Oh, yes.

Babylon
Medo Persia
Greece
Rome
 
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DavidPT

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How so? the parable of the Goats and Sheep doesn't give Jesus' location.



Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

How can this not be giving His location? The fact He is currently in heaven, and that the text indicates---When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory---where else would He be coming to if not earth? He wouldn't need to be coming to heaven, He's already in heaven. The text also indicates---And before him shall be gathered all nations. Where would all nations be being gathered from? The earth, or heaven?
 
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DavidPT

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Simply using scripture shows Daniel 7:17-18 to be fulfilled. How many kingdoms would be from the time of Daniel until the saints inherit the kingdom? FOUR

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kingdoms who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

Jesus shows that the saints would inherit the kingdom when the wicked tenants would be destroyed at the coming of the vineyard owner in Judgment

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

The wicked tenants were destroyed from 66-70ad, which would have been during the 4th kingdom (rome)

Matthew 21:35-36 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:33-34 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,e right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

This is what the text indicates. It says---and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. When? Once this part occurs---the Ancient of days came. Did this coming take place in the first century?

'came' in Daniel 7:22 is 'athah. That same Hebrew word is also used in the following passages. If you care to look at those passages, take note of the sense it is being used in. It is being used in the literal sense when it is rendered came, come, where it involves someone's literal presence. The same should have to be true of Daniel 7:22. And if Christ is meant in this verse, a literal presence via His coming makes perfect sense if this is meaning His 2nd coming in the end of this age.

'athah---

bring
Dan 3:13, Dan 5:2

brought
Dan 3:13, Dan 5:3, Dan 5:13, Dan 5:23, Dan 6:16, Dan 6:17, Dan 6:24

came
Ezr 5:3, Ezr 5:16, Dan 7:22

come
Ezr 4:12, Dan 3:2, Dan 3:26
 
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Andrewn

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Andrewn, future, but not distant future, during your lifetime. During the final 7 years.

In Revelation 12:7-9, following the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6, Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth (from the second heaven) for a time, times, half time before he becomes a terror no more. So that will fulfill the part in Ezekiel 28 of him to be cast down to earth.

During that time, times, half times, Satan will incarnate the statue image of the beast, making it appear as a lying wonder to come alive, speak, and require worship of (him). Which fits with Revelation 13:4.
Actually, I agree that these verses are connected. But I think all this took place in the 1st century.
 
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Andrewn

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So IMO this is more than ample proof that Christ is meant in Daniel 7:22, therefore He also is being meant in Daniel 7:9-12.
I have no doubt that the Ancient of Days is God the Son. This is always how EO understood the passage.

What I have underlined, how do we apply something like that on a spiritual level? To me it sounds like someone or something is literally being judged here, and literally being sentenced here. Some think the scene in Daniel 7:9-12 is taking place in heaven. How could it be though? Why would the beast be in heaven then given to the burning flame in heaven? The beast would be on the earth. That is where Daniel 7 places it. So when Daniel 7:22 indicates---Until the Ancient of days came, it is meaning a literal physical coming, as in from heaven unto the earth. This has to be meaning Christ's 2nd coming.
No, this is Christ's 1st coming, before the Millennium. But first consider that Heaven isn't a physical place. Heaven and earth are intersecting dimensions. God is in heaven. Jesus is crucified on earth. The devil is thrown out of heaven. His beast follows Jesus and the saints. The beast is killed as in Dan 7:11 as I described with the fall of Caeser Nero. But its mortal wound was healed as in Rev 13:3 and he came back to power with Caeser Vespasian.
 
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Andrewn

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Why, when Revelation was written after 70 AD.
Some Bible scholars with significant experience believe Revelation was written before 70 AD, e.g. NT Wright. But the date of writing doesn't affect the conclusions in anyway.

Rev 12 & 13 describe the devil attacking Christ and the saints. Archangel Michael throws the devil out of heaven. The devil comes down to earth and the sea and gives his authority to the beast. This took place in the 1st century when Christ conquered the devil by the cross and the resurrection.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Some Bible scholars with significant experience believe Revelation was written before 70 AD, e.g. NT Wright. But the date of writing doesn't affect the conclusions in anyway.

Rev 12 & 13 describe the devil attacking Christ and the saints. Archangel Michael throws the devil out of heaven. The devil comes down to earth and the sea and gives his authority to the beast. This took place in the 1st century when Christ conquered the devil by the cross and the resurrection.

That has happened twice before and the reason they are in Scripture. They are pardigms foreshadowing an important event.

As for the date of Revelation, John wrote it while imprisoned on Patmos by an emperor who didn't come into power until long after 70 AD. Domitian 81 AD to 96 AD. Wright wouldn't be the first 'scholar' to be wrong about something.
 
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Andrewn

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That has happened twice before and the reason they are in Scripture. They are pardigms foreshadowing an important event.
Would you explain?

As for the date of Revelation, John wrote it while imprisoned on Patmos by an emperor who didn't come into power until long after 70 AD. Domitian 81 AD to 96 AD. Wright wouldn't be the first 'scholar' to be wrong about something.
You consider NT Wright wrong even without asking about his arguments! I'm quite aware of the arguments for a date after or a date before 70 AD. The fact is that the date is not settled. But you alone know without a shadow of a doubt that it was written between 81 and 96 AD.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Would you explain?

160 BC to 167 BC Maccabean revolt; defiling the temple (7 years)

64 AD to 73 AD another Jewish revolt; temple destroyed (7 years)

1 John 2:18 (written in 90 to 96 AD)
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

You consider NT Wright wrong even without asking about his arguments! I'm quite aware of the arguments for a date after or a date before 70 AD. The fact is that the date is not settled. But you alone know without a shadow of a doubt that it was written between 81 and 96 AD.

Yes, I am confident.
 
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Andrewn

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160 BC to 167 BC Maccabean revolt (7 years)

64 AD to 73 AD another Jewish revolt; temple destroyed (7 years)
A lot of people consider that Ezek 28 (the fall of satan) took place at the beginning of time. But you don't?
 
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DavidPT

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As to Daniel 7 in general. My approach is simple. I don't first study what past Commentators have had to say on this subject, then decide what Daniel 7 is supposed to be meaning based on what they have concluded. That way I am at least able to look at the texts without bias of any kind. That doesn't automatically make me correct, but at least it allows me to look at the texts somewhat objectively.


Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.



All of the above has to be fulfilled first, before any of what is below can be fulfilled. And when one sections Daniel 7 off like this, it is obvious that all of what is below, it is meaning in the end of this present age, and not in the first century instead. To put what is below, in the first century, is to then put what is above, prior to that time.

Notice that I also placed Daniel 7:13-14 with the above, rather than with what is below. Obviously Daniel 7:13-14 has to be fulfilled first, before anything below can be fulfilled. IOW, there are two comings of Christ hidden in the text here. Daniel 7:13-14 is meaning His ascension into heaven. In order to have ascended into heaven, that requires that a coming to the earth preceded this, thus His first coming. In order for Christ to be sitting as judge in Daniel 7:9-12, this requires yet another coming, thus the 2nd coming. This means Daniel 7:22 does not involve the first coming like many are wrongly claiming, but involves the 2nd coming instead, like I have been saying all along.


Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
 
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CharismaticLady

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A lot of people consider that Ezek 28 (the fall of satan) took place at the beginning of time. But you don't?

When was "the beginning of time" to you? Before or after the Garden of Eden?

I see Ez 28 as him being in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, and it was there that all three committed their first sin. That day was when iniquity was found in him. Being "cast to the ground" was the curse put on the serpent on that day, for God cursed all three, not just two. Before that he was the most gorgeous creature God ever created among the angels. It could be also that his beauty gave Eve a sense that he was of God and truthful. He did not appear as a slithering snake as we know them to her. He would have been upright with arms and legs and maybe even wings.
 
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