When is the fulfillment of Daniel 7:18?

DavidPT

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When Christ separates the sheep and goats

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Actually I am in full agreement with this, but I doubt we are in agreement as to the timing of Matthew 25:34.


If one believe that believers now go to heaven upon death, and if they believe this transition of believers going to heaven upon death took place in the 1st century, which would have been during the 4th empire (rome), then yes, the saints possess the kingdom upon death

Where did Jesus inherit the kingdom? in heaven.

Luke 19:12 So He said, “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to lay claim to his kingdom and then return.

This appears to contradict a passage you already brought up, Matthew 25:34. None of that is taking place in heaven.



The angel doesn't say. While the vision as the whole beast thrown into the fire. The interpretation of that vision only states the little horn is.

I agree the angel doesn't say, yet I was interested, in general, what one assumes happens to the 4th beast at that time.




No it doesn't.


That all depends as to where Daniel 7:22 fits on the timeline of events. Some of us tend to think it is yet to be fulfilled.
 
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Marilyn C

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Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.


If Daniel 7:22 is yet to be fulfilled, what does that plainly tell us about the timing of the thousand years in Revelation 20? Does it not tell us, if Daniel 7:22 is yet to be fulfilled, then so must the thousand years in Revelation 20 be yet to be fulfilled?

Hi David,

Remember the one-third of Israel who go through the fire of testing. (Zech. 13: 8) These people from Israel will be the ones that the Lord reveals Himself to and pours upon them the Spirit of grace and supplication. (Zech. 12: 10)

Then we read that a man called David will be appointed their regent king, and also priests. (Jer. 30: 9, Isa. 66: 21)

These people of Israel will receive the kingdom rulership over the nations as God promised. Note the Body of Christ will have been with the Lord in the third heaven, judging the fallen angels and the world system. ( Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

Israel rules on earth, We, the Body of Christ rule from heaven, but all a part of God`s great kingdom.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Let's start with verse 18----But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

The question is, when shall they take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever?

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

According to these verses above, does it look like the saints of the most High have already taken the kingdom, thus possessing the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever, during any of these events recorded in the above verses?

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them---And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time---does it look like verse 18 has already been fulfilled during the time of verse 21 which apparently is meaning verse 25 as well? Does not verse 25 give us the length of verse 21, that being until a time and times and the dividing of time?

Does not verse 22 tell us when verse 18 is initially fulfilled?

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

What happens to this little horn at the time, once verse 22 is initially fulfilled? Is it not the following?

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


What happens to the 4th beast once the little horn is given to the burning flame?

Some will tell us all of Daniel 7 has already been fulfilled ages ago. Others will tell us verse 18 and 22 have been fulfilled ages ago, while telling us that Daniel 7:11 is yet to be fulfilled.

The question is, what is Daniel 7 telling us? Is it telling us the same things some of these others are telling us it is telling us? I think not. Obviously the initial fulfillment of verse 22 is in the end of this age and not ages ago instead. That means verse 18 hasn't even been fulfilled yet.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Does it sound like Daniel 7:18 has already been fulfilled according to these verses above? How can verse 5 above not be meaning verse 21 and verse 25 in Daniel 7?

If Daniel 7:22 is yet to be fulfilled, what does that plainly tell us about the timing of the thousand years in Revelation 20? Does it not tell us, if Daniel 7:22 is yet to be fulfilled, then so must the thousand years in Revelation 20 be yet to be fulfilled?

What is interesting is that the little horn of Daniel 7 is at the second coming of Christ, while the little horn of Daniel 8 is before the first coming of Christ.
 
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DavidPT

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while the little horn of Daniel 8 is before the first coming of Christ.


I'm not convinced this is the case. If in Daniel 8, the Prince of princes is meaning Christ, how could the little horn be before the first coming of Christ, rather than be at the 2nd coming of Christ instead?

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

One title for Christ is King of kings, so why wouldn't Prince of princes be yet another title for Christ?
 
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Andrewn

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How and why you understand that to be so, that I likely may never understand, in this lifetime anyway.
Your issue is with 7:18 & 22, right:

18 but the holy ones of the Most High will receive the kingship. They will hold the kingship securely forever and always.”

22 until the Ancient One came. Then judgment was given in favor of the holy ones of the Most High. The set time arrived, and the holy ones held the kingship securely.

So, why exactly is it impossible to understand that these verses took place in the 1st century? The Bible clearly says that the Lord conquered the devil. And He opened the door for the souls of saints to rule in Paradise.
 
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Douggg

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So, why exactly is it impossible to understand that these verses took place in the 1st century? The Bible clearly says that the Lord conquered the devil. And He opened the door for the souls of saints to rule in Paradise.
Andrewn, go to Ezekiel 28. It describes the demise of Satan to be a terror no more. Satan is be visibly exposed before kings of the earth, and all present shall see him.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
 
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DavidPT

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So, why exactly is it impossible to understand that these verses took place in the 1st century? The Bible clearly says that the Lord conquered the devil. And He opened the door for the souls of saints to rule in Paradise.

One main reason would be the following, especially verse 11.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If this fits with both Daniel 7:18 and Daniel 7:22, how do you make Daniel 7:9-12 fit with what you conclude in your post that I am addressing?

Does not Daniel 7:22 say---Until the Ancient of days came? Does not Daniel 7:9 say--- I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit?

Is not---the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them(Daniel 7:21)---meaning the same one here----I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame(Daniel 7:11)?

Obviously then, unless you can show why Daniel 7:22 is not the interpretation of Daniel 7:9-12, this indicates Daniel 7:22 and Daniel 7:9-12 are referring to the same events. To then place Daniel 7:9-12 in the first century, I do not get that logic. It doesn't sound remotely reasonable. Where did Daniel 7:11 ever take place in the first century? Where can I read of anything like that in the NT somewhere?
 
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Andrewn

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go to Ezekiel 28. It describes the demise of Satan to be a terror no more. Satan is be visibly exposed before kings of the earth, and all present shall see him.
When do you expect this to happen?
 
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Andrewn

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To then place Daniel 7:9-12 in the first century, I do not get that logic. It doesn't sound remotely reasonable. Where did Daniel 7:11 ever take place in the first century?
After Nero's death, the Roman beast was in shambles and was thought to have died.

"The suicide of the emperor Nero in 68 was followed by a brief period of civil war, the first Roman civil warsince Mark Antony's death in 30 BC. Between June of 68 and December of 69 Galba, Otho, and Vitellius successively rose and fell, the latter overlapping with the July 69 accession of Vespasian, who founded the Flavian dynasty. The social, military and political upheavals of the period had Empire-wide repercussions, which included the outbreak of the Revolt of the Batavia."

Year of the Four Emperors - Wikipedia

On a spiritual level, the spread of Christianity dealt a death blow to the Roman Beast?
 
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Douggg

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When do you expect this to happen?
Andrewn, future, but not distant future, during your lifetime. During the final 7 years.

In Revelation 12:7-9, following the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6, Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth (from the second heaven) for a time, times, half time before he becomes a terror no more. So that will fulfill the part in Ezekiel 28 of him to be cast down to earth.

During that time, times, half times, Satan will incarnate the statue image of the beast, making it appear as a lying wonder to come alive, speak, and require worship of (him). Which fits with Revelation 13:4.

When Jesus returns, by the brightness of His coming, it will melt away, bring to ashes the outer facade of the statue image, and there will be Satan physically exposed for everyone present, the kings of the earth, the armies, all of the holy angels and returned saints, to see him. The humans present will be speechless.

So those things have not happen yet. It will be the end of Satan (and his angels) kingdom called Mystery Babylon the great as well. Satan will be bound in chains and never have such a kingdom ever again.
 
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DavidPT

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On a spiritual level, the spread of Christianity dealt a death blow to the Roman Beast?


Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


What I have underlined, how do we apply something like that on a spiritual level? To me it sounds like someone or something is literally being judged here, and literally being sentenced here.

Some think the scene in Daniel 7:9-12 is taking place in heaven. How could it be though? Why would the beast be in heaven then given to the burning flame in heaven? The beast would be on the earth. That is where Daniel 7 places it. So when Daniel 7:22 indicates---Until the Ancient of days came, it is meaning a literal physical coming, as in from heaven unto the earth. This has to be meaning Christ's 2nd coming.

Some will likely argue, since it says Ancient of days in Daniel 7:22, can't be meaning Christ then, since the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:13 is meaning the Father. Yet compare Daniel 7:9 with that of Revelation 1:13, as an example.


Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.


Plus, consider what Isaiah 9:6 tells us.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And finally, consider this.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

So IMO this is more than ample proof that Christ is meant in Daniel 7:22, therefore He also is being meant in Daniel 7:9-12.
 
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CharismaticLady

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I'm not convinced this is the case. If in Daniel 8, the Prince of princes is meaning Christ, how could the little horn be before the first coming of Christ, rather than be at the 2nd coming of Christ instead?

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

One title for Christ is King of kings, so why wouldn't Prince of princes be yet another title for Christ?

No, it is not speaking of the actual Prince of princes, but a counterfeit, a foreshadow of the Antichrist. In this case out of Greece before the Roman Empire took over, and before the birth of Christ. It was Antiochus Epiphanes IV and the Maccabean revolt.
 
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DavidPT

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Satan will be bound in chains and never have such a kingdom ever again.

Since you and I both believe the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, and since the beast and fp would already be in the LOF, who is that you assume will help satan manage to deceive the nations? He obviously can't do it alone.
 
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parousia70

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When Jesus began His ministry, He stood before Israel and said, "Behold, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." If Israel had accepted Christ there would have been no church age, Israel would have begun to fulfill the purpose of God. They would have evangelized the world.

Israel Did Accept Him... 3000 on one day even! Joseph, Mary, the 12, the 3000 and all Faithful Israel Accepted Christ, began to fulfill God's Purpose and continues to evangelize the world.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Since you and I both believe the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, and since the beast and fp would already be in the LOF, who is that you assume will help satan manage to deceive the nations? He obviously can't do it alone.

You are possibly reading the section of Revelation that I found not to be in chronological order.
 
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Douggg

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Since you and I both believe the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, and since the beast and fp would already be in the LOF, who is that you assume will help satan manage to deceive the nations? He obviously can't do it alone.
I have not considered that question - because I don't make the same presumption you are making.
 
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DavidPT

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No, it is not speaking of the actual Prince of princes, but a counterfeit, a foreshadow of the Antichrist. In this case out of Greece before the Roman Empire took over, and before the birth of Christ. It was Antiochus Epiphanes IV and the Maccabean revolt.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

he meaning the little horn, shall also stand up against the Prince of princes

Obviously the little horn is not a good guy. Why would the Prince of princes be a bad guy as well? Isn't it typically good vs evil, rather than evil vs evil?

What leads you to believe the Prince of princes is meaning a counterfit here? Even if the Prince of princes was not meaning Christ, it would still have to be referring to someone good rather than someone evil.

You mentioned Antiochus Epiphanes IV. There are two entities in Daniel 8:25---the little horn, and the Prince of princes. Which of these 2 are you taking to be meaning Antiochus Epiphanes IV?
 
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DavidPT

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I have not considered that question - because I don't make the same presumption you are making.


Does this mean you think he can do it alone?

The reason I even bring this up, I'm simply curious who other Premils think satan gets to aid him in deceiving the nations? As for me, I don't really have a good answer for that, yet I remain Premil, regardless. I just can't see him doing all that alone since satan can only be in one place at a time, for one.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Antiochus Epiphanes IV was not killed, he died of natural causes.

You mentioned Antiochus Epiphanes IV. There are two entities in Daniel 8:25---the little horn, and the Prince of princes. Which of these 2 are you taking to be meaning Antiochus Epiphanes IV?

Jesus is called the Prince of Peace and the King of Kings. Seeing as Prince of princes was before Christ, I don't know who it is referring to. He set himself up as God, but never heard of God being referred to by that title either. The little horn in Daniel 8 is Antiochus Ephiphanes IV and has to do the 2300 evening and morning prophecy.

Just as the prince who was to come in Daniel 9 refers to Titus, a general, I think Antiochus was setting himself up as the general of all generals.
 
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