The fatal flaw of Universalism
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So for you hell is populated by the fools, the weak, the hopeless, the victims of this world who failed to exert their will and do right?
Aren’t they exactly the ones Jesus comes to save? Does he fail so miserably? Maybe you like satanic Metallica who mockingly sing The God that Failed?
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Yes, our Lord is a merciful and loving God! And... (see bold below)
1 Corinthians 2:9-10
However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
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Unfortunately, what you call the overwhelming "testimony of Scripture" is based on a Damnationist biased text.
If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character?
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Lazarus Short
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Easy - unlike the verses I quoted in I Corinthians 15, the ones you referred to in the Revelation do not claim to portray "the end." In all the Scripture you quoted in post #866, there is no claim to that time period being the end.
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Yes.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
A large group is destroyed and a smaller group (FEW) are the ones that find life.
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Here's what I don't get. Maybe you can explain this. See scripture below.
Jesus teaches us to love our enemies. (bold below - vs 44) And infers that this is to be like God. (bold below - vs 48)
Does God love his enemies by sending them to hell? You may tell me that they wicked send themselves to hell, but God has prearranged this whole thing. He should bear some responsibility. Right?
Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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Dear EWQ: Being an annihilationist requires a huge degree of faith in the light of what the Master of Reconciliation declares when He says He will draw the radical all to Him. Perhaps the full weight of His words in Matt. 7 are in discord, but they are not!
Destruction = apollumi = to perish.
This is NOT extinction but ruin /loss, NOT of being, but of well-being. Among other things it encapsulates the marring of wine skins.
It will be also required, in assuming such a view, the statements of our Father reconciling the ta pante unto Himself.
My friend the best on your journey into Him.
The meaning of “apollumi” in the Synoptic Gospels | Rethinking Hell
Marvin R. Vincent: Note on ‘eternal destruction’ (Olethron Aionion) | Mercy Upon All
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Read it again. Revelation 21:4-6.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
One continuous narrative.Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Vs. 4 “there shall be no more death.” After this there should not me any more death.
Vs. 5 “I make all things new.” After this there should be no more death.
Vs. 7 “He that overcomes shall inherit all things.’ This makes a distinction between those who overcome and those who do not overcome.
.....Although vs. 4 says no more death and vs. 5 "I make all things new" in vs. 8, eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still the second death. And there is no mention of salvation after this.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [the new Jerusalem] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Total rubbish that this does not mean the very end.
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No. They are judged by what they did in life. God is not responsible for the choices people make, and choices not made like repenting and asking forgiveness.
All are sinners so I'll use an example of two sinners. One stole some things, went to jail and was released and they repented of such a life and didn't do that again.
Another person murders his ex because he doesn't want them to move on and fall in love with another. That one is sentenced to execution and he is killed.
"God" is not responsible nor is the "bad guy" in any of this. The people made their choices and they suffered the punishment.
The majority will have done so much wrong things that he must sentence them to the lake of fire. If he didn't, he would be a bad Judge.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
This is just and fair. I wish the verse ended with, "but God decided to be merciful and erase all the bad works they had done and they were healed and restored and all people entered the new heaven and new Earth and lived happily forever."
And I do mean I wish that were the case but my desires aren't scripture. Scripture is clear many times that there is a good fate and a very bad fate and both fates will be realized.
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Was God being loving to His enemies when He destroyed millions of people in the flood, old, young, men, women, children, infants?
Was God being loving to His enemies when He burned 1000s of people alive in Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain?
Was God being loving to His enemies when He commanded Israel to go into all the cities in Canaan and kill every living thing old, young, men, women, children, infants?
Was God being loving to His enemies when He killed thousands of Israelites who rebelled against Him?
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Thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate it.
(the first half I left off of this quote, as it did not really address the "love your enemies" question) That's the part I want to focus on.
What I see with everyone here, including us Restorationists, is that we all choose which doctrine of the final judgment we believe and then quote our "proof-texts" to support it. All three views of the doctrine of the final judgment have biblical support.
The biggest problem for us Restorationists, from a biblical support perspective, is that we are using a Damnationist text to make our biblical case. And really, you as an Annihilationist have a similar problem. The Bible says, for the most part, that the torment is unending. There is very little support for Annihilationism. You have to piggy-back onto the Damnationist texts and then ignore the "eternal" aspect. Right?
I actually see Annihilationism as a hopeful softening of the horror of Damnationism. And I credit those who hold that view with recognizing the horror of it and finding a view that seems much more "humane" and merciful, by removing the eternal aspect.
My question below remains mostly unanswered. How do we reconcile the godly requirement to love our enemies with what the Bible says about the "punishment" of the wicked? Are the wicked not the enemies of God? Does God in fact love his enemies?
Saint Steven said: ↑
Here's what I don't get. Maybe you can explain this. See scripture below.
Jesus teaches us to love our enemies. (bold below - vs 44) And infers that this is to be like God. (bold below - vs 48)
Does God love his enemies by sending them to hell? You may tell me that they wicked send themselves to hell, but God has prearranged this whole thing. He should bear some responsibility. Right?
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I wonder if, as an Annihilationist, you are following a similar direction that we Restorationists have followed, but are not taking it as far as we do. The horror of a forever burning hell does not fit the character of God. Do you agree with that statement?
I'm not trying to "convert" you to Restorationism, just wondering about the similarities between us. (Annihilationists and Restorationists) It seems we are BOTH at odds with Damnationism. Correct me if I am wrong about that. Thanks.
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Dear Albion: The theme of this thread is indeed what is the fatal flaw (s) with the Restitution of all things spoken by/thru the prophets and sages of the Most High God.
Nothing is forever but the Author of the all and those He enwraps in Himself.
For me the issue is clear. Our Father loves each and every one of us. He is the God of unlimited. As the Great Shepherd He refuses to allow one stray sheep or one stubborn goat to not come Home!
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who trust in Him/ who believe. Command and teach this."
Our God is not a potential Saviour, He is Saviour ! ! !
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#1 -Rom. 11:36
"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists and in Him everything ends."
Ta pavnte= the all things.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming. From Him ta pavnte comes, through Him ta pavnte exists, and in Him ta pavnte ends.
#2. -Eph. 1:-
"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."
The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en/in Christ.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.
#3 -Col. 1:20
"God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself, making peace through His blood...to reconcile to Himself through Him, I say, things on earth and things in heaven. And you..."
The all things (the ta pavnte) in the heavens, the all things (the ta pavnte) in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. God has purposed to reconcile the universe (the ta pavnte) to Himself. The ta pavnte/ the all, encompasses the ta pavnte on the earth and the ta pavnte in the heavens.
The ta pavnte= the all, the whole enchilada in Spanish.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.
"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists and in Him everything ends."
Ta pavnte= the all things.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming. From Him ta pavnte comes, through Him ta pavnte exists, and in Him ta pavnte ends.
#2. -Eph. 1:-
"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."
The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en/in Christ.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.
#3 -Col. 1:20
"God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself, making peace through His blood...to reconcile to Himself through Him, I say, things on earth and things in heaven. And you..."
The all things (the ta pavnte) in the heavens, the all things (the ta pavnte) in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. God has purposed to reconcile the universe (the ta pavnte) to Himself. The ta pavnte/ the all, encompasses the ta pavnte on the earth and the ta pavnte in the heavens.
The ta pavnte= the all, the whole enchilada in Spanish.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.
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Yes the Hell no! crowd has several "versions" translated by UR writers which have omitted the word "hell' and replaced it with the English transliterations "hades" and "Gehenna." They refuse to accept irrefutable evidence that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal punishment which the Jews called both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom," written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as ""hades" and "Gehenna."
See e.g. my post [#813] this thread.
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Lazarus Short
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Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Unlike the relevant part of First Corinthians 15, the Scripture you quote neither declare The End, nor do they describe the Son handing the Kingdom over to the Father. Playing the "rubbish" card does not help. I think you prefer the Revelation because it still leaves some in the fire, but if God is going to be All in all, they must have come out.
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