The fatal flaw of Universalism

Dear Euq: How can anybody actually stoop so low as to believe Abba our dearest Daddy could actually accomplish what He set out to do? The curse must remain on all creation forever & forever & forever in complete nauseum.

“Punish a man for his sins, that is just: punish him for ages…that may be just: but make no end of punishing him for that sin, reduce him from a man to a devil, let him become for ever vile, that is not just. The only justice to a sinner in a case like our human one is mercy, is to make his punishment finite according to his works…and of such a nature as not simply to torment the man, but to drive him back to the way of God.” -T. P. Forsyth M.A.

ewq1938 said:

Most find their way to destruction not to eternal life.

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That seems so wasteful. Shouldn't they at least be recycled? More Eco-friendly.

Go green with Restorationism.

ewq1938 said:

Scripture is not silly. It's important and correct and proves the doctrine of Universalism (rightly banned from most of the forum) to be a false doctrine.

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Right. Because it's not TRUE Christianity without a forever burning hell.

Saint Steven said:

That seems so wasteful. Shouldn't they at least be recycled? More Eco-friendly.

Go green with Restorationism.

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Dear Saint: Our Master refuses to produce miracle fish and bread to feed the many thousands who have gathered to hear His words of life and leave it there.

This Man from the Glory says, "gather up the fragments that remain that NOTHING be lost."

Another fatal flaw?

FineLinen said:

This Man from the Glory says, "gather up the fragments that remain that NOTHING be lost."

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Yes. Twelve baskets full.
Such a visual. The twelve return to Christ with the overflow; each with a basket full in their hands. And all this from a boy's lunch. Imagine what this did in the life of that boy. I wonder if Jesus sent the overflow home with the boy as a witness to his mother. - lol

"How was your day, son? Err... What's this? !!!"

Good morning @Charlie24

May you see the world today as full of people who will one day be redeemed into God's whole family. Each one as they joyfully acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord.

Life is so much better when we look on humanity as our own family, rather than as the damned. Love finds a way. - AMEN

Saint Steven said:

Right. Because it's not TRUE Christianity without a forever burning hell.

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It's not true Christianity if it does not agree with the Bible.

In this case, the testimony of Scripture is overwhelmingly in the direction of an eternal loss on the part of the unredeemed, no matter how we "slice" that concept.

Maybe it will not be pitchforks and literal fire; maybe those who refused Christ until the end of their Earthly lives will take themselves to some kind of hell in preference to the place of the redeemed. In any case, it is undeniable that an eternal loss, an estrangement from God, is Scriptural.

Albion said:

It's not true Christianity if it does not agree with the Bible.

In this case, the testimony of Scripture is overwhelmingly in the direction of an eternal loss on the part of the unredeemed, no matter how we "slice" that concept.

Maybe it will not be pitchforks and literal fire; maybe those who refused Christ until the end of their Earthly lives will take themselves to some kind of hell in preference to the place of the redeemed. In any case, it is undeniable that an eternal loss, an estrangement from God, is Scriptural.

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Dear Albion: There is most certainly "loss" in Canon. It is when you endeavor to place aidios/ eternal before it that you face what is NOT in Scripture. In the case of the individual turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh, the final effect is salvation, loss but salvation.

That his spirit shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.

Saint Steven said:

Yes. Twelve baskets full.
Such a visual. The twelve return to Christ with the overflow; each with a basket full in their hands. And all this from a boy's lunch. Imagine what this did in the life of that boy. I wonder if Jesus sent the overflow home with the boy as a witness to his mother. - lol

"How was your day, son? Err... What's this? !!!"

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Dear Saint: The Master of the Glory does all things well. He clears the air of the human condition, the disordered mess of struggling humanity to set is right once & for all.

The band-aid of the Law has been swallowed by the Spirit of the living & breathing God.

Our Father Abba = magnificent overflow.

FineLinen said:

Dear Albion: There is most certainly "loss" in Canon. It is when you endeavor to place aidios/ eternal before it that you face what is NOT in Scripture. In the case of the individual turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh, the final effect is salvation, loss but salvation.

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I follow what you are saying, but if we rely upon Scripture, it's not supported there.

The above, for example, does not refer to the next life but to this one. Gill's exposition (per Bible Hub) explains as follows:

for the destruction of the flesh; that is, that his body might be shook, buffeted, afflicted, and tortured in a terrible manner; that by this means he might be brought to a sense of his sin, to repentance for it, and make an humble acknowledgment of it....

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Albion said:

I follow what you are saying, but if we rely upon Scripture, it's not there.

The following, for example, does not refer to the next life but to this one.

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Dear Albion: The Scripture speaks of the total triumph of the Lord of Glory over the all. Not some, not a great deal, the ta pante!

If you will take a few moments and read the translations of this declaration you will find the operation is not restricted to this life.

"You must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns."

Never limit the Unlimited One, EVER!

FineLinen said:

Dear Albion: The Scripture speaks of total triumph of the Lord of Glory over the all.

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Well, certainly. We have to admit that God will triumph in the end. What constitutes that "triumph" is not necessarily what you want us to conclude, however.

To have justice done everywhere, for instance, would represent God's triumph. Or saving some of us purely on the basis of God's graciousness while others are not saved from themselves can be evidence of God's triumph.

Albion said:

Well, certainly. We have to admit that God will triumph in the end. What constitutes that "triumph" is not necessarily what you want us to conclude, however.

To have justice done everywhere, for instance, would represent God's triumph. Or saving some of us purely on the basis of God's graciousness while others are not saved from themselves can be evidence of God's triumph.

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Dear Albion: If Abba loses the vast, vast majority for whom the Beloved appears as the at-one-ment, the Author is not the Finisher.

No more let sin & sorrow grow, nor thorns infest the ground. He comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found.

FineLinen said:

Dear Albion: If Abba loses the vast, vast majority for whom the Beloved appears as the at-one-ment, the Author is not the Finisher.

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I don't think that conclusion is acceptable. It may look that way to us mortals who gauge winning and losing in a certain way, and Universalists often make the argument you are referring to. Remember, though, that God is almighty and can save whomever he wants. He COULD save everyone if he were to choose that.

It is not as though he is in a battle with an adversary, Satan, who is his equal. Because Satan is not the equal of God, the "struggle" for men's souls that is so often talked about by people is not actually a fair fight. God is ALLOWING Satan to remain in the field.

Albion said:

I don't think that conclusion is acceptable. It may look that way to us mortals who gauge winning and losing in a certain way, but remember that God is almighty and can save whomever he wants. So it is only by his will that he does not simply decree salvation upon every human, regardless of all other considerations. It is not as though he is in a battle with Satan who is his equal.

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Dear Albion: The Magnificent One accomplishes every last segment of His mighty purpose in the Lord Jesus Christ. Adam1 sins, the Last Adam meets that fall by degrees of "how much more." He wills (thelo) that all mankind be saved, His mighty will prevails, always.

Many made sinners = many made righteous.

Albion said:

It's not true Christianity if it does not agree with the Bible.

In this case, the testimony of Scripture is overwhelmingly in the direction of an eternal loss on the part of the unredeemed, no matter how we "slice" that concept.

Maybe it will not be pitchforks and literal fire; maybe those who refused Christ until the end of their Earthly lives will take themselves to some kind of hell in preference to the place of the redeemed. In any case, it is undeniable that an eternal loss, an estrangement from God, is Scriptural.

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Albion, this ex-atheist/now-Christian had heard the assertions for damnation, annihilation and reconciliation. I had questions needing answers. I found myself a very ordinary KJV and dove in for two years. I saw bias, bad translation and context trickery. By the time I reached the end of it, I was a confirmed Universalist.

You use the term "the Bible" without specifying. You say it as if there is one and only one, as if Bibles which do not mention Hell do not exist. They do. How can you be unaware of that? The way I "slice" it, the only loss will be the loss of rewards for those who must go through the fire, as we see in First Corinthians 3:15. Yet, they will be saved.

FineLinen said:

Dear Albion: The Magnificent One accomplishes every last segment of His mighty purpose in the Lord Jesus Christ. Adam1 sins, the Last Adam meets that fall by degrees of "how much more." He wills (thelo) that all mankind be saved, His mighty will prevails, always.

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According to the Bible, he saves all who have Faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior. It's pretty clear that not everyone is in that group.

Lazarus Short said:

You use the term "the Bible" without specifying. You say it as if there is one and only one, as if Bibles which do not mention Hell do not exist. They do. How can you be unaware of that? The way I "slice" it, the only loss will be the loss of rewards for those who must go through the fire, as we see in First Corinthians 3:15. Yet, they will be saved.

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There is one Bible, but there are different translations. So okay, tell us what you are referring to as concerns Bible versions that do not make any reference to hell or, more importantly, to an eternity of estrangement awaiting some of us. That is the issue, not hell per se.

Der Alter said:

Only if you ignore the end of the book.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

One continuous narrative.
Vs. 4 “there shall be no more death.” After this there should not me any more death.
Vs. 5 “I make all things new.”
Vs. 7 “He that overcomes shall inherit all things.’ This makes a distinction between those who overcome and those who do not overcome.
.....Although vs. 4 says no more death four verses later vs. 8 eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still the second death. NO salvation mentioned after this.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [the new Jerusalem] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.​

If there is nothing remaining which defiles, works an abomination or makes a lie this verse is unnecessary.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.​

According to UR at this time everybody should be keeping the prophecy of this book. This verse assumes the opposite there must be some who are not keeping the prophecy.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Instead of saying that everyone will be saved the angel said “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:”

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

This passage distinguishes between those who do the commandments and who have the right to the tree of life and those who don’t do the commandments and don’t have the right to the tree of light.
.....Five verses from the end of the book, vs. 15, there are still dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and liars outside the city and there is no mention of salvation after this.
Do you think maybe John got it wrong?

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Do not confuse the end of the book with the end of the story. See First Corinthians 23-28.

John did not get it wrong, he was not shown everything, just wrote what he was allowed to write.