Daniel's 70th week

sovereigngrace

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Have you not read that in the last days the temple will be 'rebuilt'? Jesus says that the physical temple will be destroyed and that it will happen within 40 years in Matthew 24 and other places. He's not talking about his second coming there. He's talking about the end of the age. And the end of the age is not the 'Last Day.' He said that ALL of the thing he said would take place before that generation passed. So we know he couldn't have been talking about the end of the world.

I have repeatedly told you, and you have repeatedly ignored it, the last days and the kingdom of God, where ushered in when John the Baptist introduced the Lord Jesus Christ at the beginning of his earthly ministry. The "last days" end on the "last day" when the "kingdom of God" will be handed up by Christ to the Father. They cover the same era from start to finish!

Seriously? You don't see the prophecies of the 'last days' as talking about Christ?

Read what I say, not what do you think I say. You're not debating with a Premillennialist now. He did introduce the last days, he didn't merely arrive in those last days.

The last days were the days in which the prophecies were telling people the events would take place. The proof that they were in the last days were that the prophecies were coming to pass. So they were the marking of an end. Hence the term 'last days.' They marked an end of an age.

That is your opinion, but Scripture refutes that!

I have showed you how the end of the age is the resurrection of mankind and the second coming of Jesus. You have totally ignored it. I wonder why? Because it is so clear and explicit! Please address those several posts that you have carefully avoided.

So, he recognized that he lived in the last days, the ending of the old era.

Christ’s focus and His mission were to redeem His people. This was central to His Gospel message. He

You felt you had to be pedantic here because?

Look at you acknowledging the end of something here. What are the last days except the period when the old something ended?

It is simple: the last day will end the last days.

So the old covenant was nailed to the cross in the 'last days.'

Yes, during the new covenant era, the kingdom age, which we are still in.

AD 70 just marks the end of the grace period. I don't know what a preterist is and I don't care to know. Another man-made epithet and doctrine for those who like to associate themselves with man-made labels.

Jesus did not need Titus' help to complete the new covenant. He did it devoid of man's help. AD70 is merely the consequence of rejecting Christ. While the apparatus took 40 years to dismantle, the old covenant was long gone, and the new covenant was active for 40 years. The two covenants did not run simultaneous.

Exactly correct in my opinion.

You felt the need to repeat this because?

Agreed.

Again, agreed.

You keep repeating this as if it is relevant to what I'm saying. You do realize, all you're doing is making yourself look foolish?

And again.... and then more stuff we agree on. This is beginning to look like an attempt to change the subject. I don't think you've actually been reading my responses given that you keep posting things about which we agree. Why?

These all prove that the cross was when the new covenant ended!
 
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mkgal1

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SovereignGrace said:
God’s elaborate ceremonial atonement program was now complete.
This was the ceremonial atonement process (some highlights):

Leviticus 16:17 ~ "When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.

The high priest is not visible to anyone at this point in the atonement process - just as Jesus wasn't visible when He was "going through the most Holy place" in heaven at His death on the Cross.

Leviticus 16:23 ~ Then Aaron is to enter the Tent of Meeting, take off the linen garments he put on before entering the Most Holy Place, and leave them there.

Sound familiar? "Simon Peter arrived just after him. He entered the tomb and saw the linen cloths lying there." (John 20:6)

Leviticus 16:32-33 ~ The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest shall make atonement. He will put on the sacred linen garments and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, and for the priests and all the people of the assembly.

Leviticus 16:7 ~ Then he shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

Leviticus 16:17 ~ "When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.

After all has been purified - the High Priest came out of the Holy place and signaled that God has accepted the offering.
 
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mkgal1

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Daniel 12:4 ~ But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase.”
Okay.....we agree there are only TWO ages. Here, in Daniel's prophecy, we're informed this is NOT the "time of the end". This was - what - 600 years before Christ's incarnation? Sovereign Grace is suggesting the "time of the end" came with Christ (which I don't DISagree with)......

But now we're STILL in the "time of the end" mentioned in Daniel's prophecy - 1900+ years later and counting? That's a LONG ending..... I believe the "end" came with the end of the Judaic priesthood and that entire religious system being taken away from them.
 
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pasifika

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The main focus of Biblical prophecy is Christ. Christ fulfilled the law in the prophets.

Even as you state, you agree Jesus fulfilled all 6 points of Daniel 9:24 at his 1st coming.

Thus the 70 weeks has been fulfilled.
Of course Christ fulfilled it But Not for Himself...Christ has brothers and sisters as well and He has to accomplished all those 6 points you've mentioned in them...that why the 70 weeks prophecy clearly stated to Daniel is regarding his People and their holy city Daniel 9:24...

So has the 6 points being accomplished in the people? I think your answer is yes, since your 70 weeks prophecy is fulfilled and I think this is big mistake...
 
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Douggg

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To the apostles, it was the last days because of Matthew 24, that they would be persecuted, and the gospel spread to the nations. But the end (Matthew 24:14) of those "last days", they were aware would not take place until the abomination of desolation was placed in the temple. We are living in the time, the end of the age, when the event of Matthew 24:15 will take place.

Cannot be a historic event because the means have not been technologically possible for the two witnesses's to be seen by the world come back to life after their bodies laying dead in the street of Jerusalem, just was not possible in the past.

We are living in "the last days end of the age". Look at where you are at. You are setting in front of a compute screen, typing on a keyboard. This generation is living in "the last days end of the age"
 
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Al Touthentop

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These all prove that the cross was when the new covenant ended!


Ended in 'the last days.' Yet the grace period of 40 years was understood by Paul because prior to the destruction of Jerusalem he wrote that Jesus spoke to that generation in 'these last days.' Then he goes on to say that the old covenant was demolished and that it was 'ready to vanish away' referring to the final destruction of the temple as Jesus prophesied in Matt. 24.

Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world. It's about the end of Jerusalem and the end of the age spoken of in prophecy. If there were still days after that destruction, they were new days, not 'last days.'

We are not still in those last days. If we are, then the prophecies were superfluous and vague and not dealing with a specific time frame. We could still apply them to today. But they were not vague. Daniel's especially dealt with a very specific 490 years which also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem as a consequence of Israel's rejection of Messiah the Prince.

When Jesus answered the apostle's questions, which asked specifically about the end of the age, he answered them and said that ALL of what he had told them would take place before 'this generation' passed. It wasn't a prophecy about the end of the world. It was about him coming on the clouds in judgement against Jerusalem. That's what ended that age, the exact question his disciples asked him.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Ended in 'the last days.' Yet the grace period of 40 years was understood by Paul because prior to the destruction of Jerusalem he wrote that Jesus spoke to that generation in 'these last days.' Then he goes on to say that the old covenant was demolished and that it was 'ready to vanish away' referring to the final destruction of the temple as Jesus prophesied in Matt. 24.

Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world. It's about the end of Jerusalem and the end of the age spoken of in prophecy. If there were still days after that destruction, they were new days, not 'last days.'

We are not still in those last days. If we are, then the prophecies were superfluous and vague and not dealing with a specific time frame. We could still apply them to today. But they were not vague. Daniel's especially dealt with a very specific 490 years which also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem as a consequence of Israel's rejection of Messiah the Prince.

When Jesus answered the apostle's questions, which asked specifically about the end of the age, he answered them and said that ALL of what he had told them would take place before 'this generation' passed. It wasn't a prophecy about the end of the world. It was about him coming on the clouds in judgement against Jerusalem. That's what ended that age, the exact question his disciples asked him.

Contrary to the Preterist fixation with AD70, the grace period never stopped with the coming of Titus. It is still ongoing. It lasts throughout "the last days" period - the day of salvation. It will continue right up until "the last day" when Christ comes. Jesus makes clear (and unambiguously) in Matthew 24:14: this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (or telos) come.”

This couldn’t be clearer! Now is man's only hope of salvation. The whole wider redemptive history of mankind is encompassed between Adam and the second coming of the second Adam. The period that we are currently in today is the day of grace (the day of salvation). Jesus is not coming again as Savior but as Judge. Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The phrase “the end” here refers to the conclusion or the completion.

2 Peter 3:3-13 shows the following happening at “His coming” (parousia):

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

No one could surely deny the climatic detail that attends the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3:14-15 then concludes: “Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

The seeming delay in the destruction of wicked men in our day is similarly presented in 2 Peter 3 as “the longsuffering of God.” This would suggest that our day is the final day of salvation. Plainly, “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.” But what is the reason for the longsuffering of God in our day? It is the exact same as it was in Noah’s day.

Peter succinctly supplies an answer: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Simply put, His prolonged absence is actually for the purpose of “salvation.” God’s heart is to save souls. Man has been given 2,000 years to encounter God in a real personal lasting intimate way. This comes through repentance. God’s heart is not to damn men, they damn themselves by their own pride and stubbornness. The apparent delay in Christ’s Coming is actually evidence of His gracious nature and the fact that He wishes to save rather than destroy.

This passage is demonstrating that God blesses his children in this life and in the life to come.

Phillip Mauro puts it well in his book The Hope of Israel: “Manifestly, if this present day of salvation were to be followed by a day of glory, peace and prosperity for the earth, a day in which the entire Jewish nation and other nations as well, are to be saved, there would be no long suffering and mercy in prolonging the Saviour's absence; but just the reverse. The apostle's reason for the delay is valid only if the return of the Lord is to usher in the day of judgment, and if it coincides with ‘the coming of the day of God’.”

Romans 2:4 agrees: "despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

This proves that "the grace period," that some Preterists limit to 40 years, is extended out in the NT to both Jews and Gentiles alike throughout the duration of the intra-Advent period. Today is the day when sinners are saved. It is a day when righteousness and unrighteousness co-exist. But there is a day when salvation will terminate and perfection will be ushered in. Salvation terminates at the second coming. Christ's return brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matthew 28:19-20).

The solemn side of the parable about the 10 virgins is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is: it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: 'welcome to a 7 yr trib' or 'welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance'. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity. That is what happens when Jesus comes: the elect are rescued, those left behind are destroyed.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation will not always be available. There is a termination point to God’s gracious offer of salvation. That conclusion comes when Jesus comes at the end (or telos).
 
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DavidPT

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Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation will not always be available. There is a termination point to God’s gracious offer of salvation. That conclusion comes when Jesus comes at the end (or telos).

I just have to wonder if Amils have actually thought through some of these things before concluding some of the things they do? For example----

Since Amils apparently tie salvation to that of the first resurrection, do Amils think salvation will still be available during satan's little season? If to be saved means to have part in the first resurrection, where everyone having part in it also lives and reigns with Christ a thousand years, how do they then reign with Christ a thousand years if they are not even initially saved until after the thousand years have expired?

You clearly indicated that conclusion comes when Jesus comes at the end. And if to be saved equals having part in the first resurrection, which then equals living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, how do Amils square any of that with some being saved during satan's little season after the thousand years have expired?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I just have to wonder if Amils have actually thought through some of these things before concluding some of the things they do? For example----

Since Amils apparently tie salvation to that of the first resurrection, do Amils think salvation will still be available during satan's little season? If to be saved means to have part in the first resurrection, where everyone having part in it also lives and reigns with Christ a thousand years, how do they then reign with Christ a thousand years if they are not even initially saved until after the thousand years have expired?

You clearly indicated that conclusion comes when Jesus comes at the end. And if to be saved equals having part in the first resurrection, which then equals living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, how do Amils square any of that with some being saved during satan's little season after the thousand years have expired?

Please re-read my post and you will see the period covered.
 
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DavidPT

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Please re-read my post and you will see the period covered.

I reread it, it still doesn't appear to answer what I'm asking. As to what I'm specifically asking about, this is not Premil vs Preterists vs Amil, I'm only wanting to know what Amils think, in light of what I'm asking below.

So let me ask it like this instead. If someone is saved during satan's little season, do Amils think that means they also have part in the first resurrection? Remember, to have part in the first resurrection equals living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. There is not a single person who has part in the first resurrection, that does not also live and reign with Christ a thousand years. IOW, it is impossible to have part in the first resurrection and then not also live and reign with Christ a thousand years. During satan's little season it is no longer the thousand years, obviously. Do Amils then think salvation is still open during satan's little season? Because if it is still open, and that some are saved during satan's little season, they obviously can't have part in the first resurrection at that point. How do Amils square that with their understanding of the first resurrection?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I reread it, it still doesn't appear to answer what I'm asking. As to what I'm specifically asking about, this is not Premil vs Preterists vs Amil, I'm only wanting to know what Amils think, in light of what I'm asking below.

So let me ask it like this instead. If someone is saved during satan's little season, do Amils think that means they also have part in the first resurrection? Remember, to have part in the first resurrection equals living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. There is not a single person who has part in the first resurrection, that does not also live and reign with Christ a thousand years. IOW, it is impossible to have part in the first resurrection and then not also live and reign with Christ a thousand years. During satan's little season it is no longer the thousand years, obviously. Do Amils then think salvation is still open during satan's little season? Because if it is still open, and that some are saved during satan's little season, they obviously can't have part in the first resurrection at that point. How do Amils square that with their understanding of the first resurrection?
  • The first resurrection is Christ's.
  • Having our "part" in that is our mystical union with Christ.
  • Reigning in life and/or death is the blessing of being a Christian.
  • Neither Premils, Postmils nor Amils suggest the reigning suddenly stops in Satan's little season. After salvation, God's people never stop reigning. That is their glorious position "in Christ." Scripture depicts the living and dead in Christ as being kings and priests. These do not stop reigning when they die.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Contrary to the Preterist fixation with AD70, the grace period never stopped with the coming of Titus. It is still ongoing. It lasts throughout "the last days" period - the day of salvation. It will continue right up until "the last day" when Christ comes. Jesus makes clear (and unambiguously) in Matthew 24:14: this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (or telos) come.”

This couldn’t be clearer! Now is man's only hope of salvation. The whole wider redemptive history of mankind is encompassed between Adam and the second coming of the second Adam. The period that we are currently in today is the day of grace (the day of salvation). Jesus is not coming again as Savior but as Judge. Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The phrase “the end” here refers to the conclusion or the completion.

The end of the age which the prophecies spoke of and which they asked about. It ended just when Jesus said it would end.

2 Peter 3:3-13 shows the following happening at “His coming” (parousia):

You are conflating two things. Jesus was not talking about the end of the world in Matt 24. He couldn't have been talking about that because he told them it would happen before "this generation" passed. He was answering their question about the end of the age. And the end of the last days as spoken of by prophecy ended right when he said it would.

The seeming delay in the destruction of wicked men in our day is similarly presented in 2 Peter 3 as “the longsuffering of God.” This would suggest that our day is the final day of salvation. Plainly, “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.” But what is the reason for the longsuffering of God in our day? It is the exact same as it was in Noah’s day.

The day Peter is talking about is the Last Day.

This proves that "the grace period," that some Preterists limit to 40 years, is extended out in the NT to both Jews and Gentiles alike throughout the duration of the intra-Advent period.

We're not in a grace period where Jews can practice the law of Moses. The grace period I'm talking about was the allowance of Jews to continue in the old law until they heard the gospel and either obeyed it or rejected the Messiah. Some had several chances and still rejected Christ. Now it isn't even possible to obey the law of Moses even if one wanted to.

We're under grace right now. Anyone can obey the gospel including a Jew who thinks he's following the law of Moses. The end of the age of the Jewish 'dispensation' does not end grace. Grace is just God's favor. That particular period of grace was extended for the sake of the 'remnant' which God promised he would save. We've all been grafted in to the new Israel, spiritual Israel. We're all spiritual Jews now, members of God's holy kingdom and others obviously can come into the kingdom as well, both Jew and Gentile.
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus was not talking about the end of the world in Matt 24. He couldn't have been talking about that because he told them it would happen before "this generation" passed. He was answering their question about the end of the age. And the end of the last days as spoken of by prophecy ended right when he said it would.
Exactly. And in looking at these verses from the Olivet Discourse, I don't know how they'd apply to an "end of the WORLD" scenario. How would "those in Judea fleeing to the hills" be of any help (and why ONLY Judea?) - or why did Jesus point out that it would matter if their flight were on a Sabbath - if this were "the end of the world"? Certainly a person can't escape an end to the literal world.

Matthew 24:15-20 ~ “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration d standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!) “Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack. A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat. How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
 
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Douggg

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The end of the age which the prophecies spoke of and which they asked about. It ended just when Jesus said it would end.
Al, Paul was living in the last days before Jerusalem would fall. Which happened.

The end of the age is when the Jews have come back and have regained Jerusalem. Where we are now is at the end of the age when Jesus is to return to earth, and setup the kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom over the human run kingdoms - to end the age of human running their kingdoms without contraints.
 
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mkgal1

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SovereignGrace said:
The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70
Again. I think you were on the right track here. Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism
 
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DavidPT

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Neither Premils, Postmils nor Amils suggest the reigning suddenly stops in Satan's little season. After salvation, God's people never stop reigning. That is their glorious position "in Christ." Scripture depicts the living and dead in Christ as being kings and priests. These do not stop reigning when they die.


But as to my point, that is irrelevant. The text indicates this---Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such---shall reign with him a thousand years.


How then, assuming the thousand years and little season happen in this age prior to the 2nd coming, and assuming people are saved during satan's little season, can they then have part in the first resurrection when it would be impossible to fulfill this part at that time---and shall reign with him a thousand years?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


What reasonable person could or would argue, that once the thousand years expire, we are still in the thousand years period, regardless?
 
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Al Touthentop

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Al, Paul was living in the last days before Jerusalem would fall. Which happened.

Which Jesus prophesied would happen and in his prophecy he says that it was also prophesied by Daniel.

The abomination of desolation, I believe, was Jewish 'priests' offering sacrifices in the temple who thought they were doing God's work but were in fact repudiating Christ's sacrifice. They were no longer doing God's works but were an abomination. But also, as Josephus relates, the Sicarii were murdering people in the holiest part of the temple.

The end of the age is when the Jews have come back and have regained Jerusalem. Where we are now is at the end of the age when Jesus is to return to earth, and setup the kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom over the human run kingdoms - to end the age of human running their kingdoms without contraints.


Jesus will never set up an earthly kingdom on earth. In fact, when he comes back, he won't set foot on earth. We go to meet him in the air. The Jews will not regain Jerusalem in any meaningful sense. That era has closed and it was never promised that the Jews would get a chance to regain their old covenant.

The prophecies about the rebuilding of the temple were about Christ's resurrection. They were never about the physical rebuilding of the temple other than the one that was rebuilt before Christ came. The 'third' rebuilding of the temple was Christ at his resurrection as the new testament attests.
 
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claninja

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So has the 6 points being accomplished in the people? I think your answer is yes, since your 70 weeks prophecy is fulfilled and I think this is big mistake...

NT scripture is clear that all 6 points of Daniel 9:24 are fulfilled in God's people as a result of the cross
 
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Al Touthentop

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But as to my point, that is irrelevant. The text indicates this---Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such---shall reign with him a thousand years.

That is talking about baptism, not the final 'second' resurrection of people from the dead.

How then, assuming the thousand years and little season happen in this age prior to the 2nd coming, and assuming people are saved during satan's little season, can they then have part in the first resurrection when it would be impossible to fulfill this part at that time---and shall reign with him a thousand years?

We reign right now because Jesus established his rule over God's kingdom when he was resurrected. That thousand years is not literal but figurative.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

This is figurative. But what it means exactly is unclear. This could mean on the day of Judgement.
 
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DavidPT

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Again. I think you were on the right track here.


There is no link in the quote for the post you were addressing. What post number was that quote from? I was thinking about trying to address that as well.
 
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