coffee4u

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That makes no sense. The end of the ice age caused massive flooding as the glaciers melted.

God caused the global flood.
The flood was not caused by ice melting because before the flood the world was a green house of warmth. There was a water vapour canopy all around the earth. This is why things lived and grew for longer creating both great age and great sizes in certain animals.
Genesis 7
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.


During the flood, the water canopy fell down as rain and volcanoes erupted putting a lot of ash into the atmosphere.
makes perfect sense.
The Genesis Flood Caused the Ice Age

Scientists recognize that volcanic dust and gas can substantially cool the earth. Most people in the United States remember the eruption of Mount St. Helens in Washington State in May of 1980. I watched as a dark “dry fog” spread from Oregon into central Montana where I lived. The darkness lasted for two days. Although I saw it as a major event, this eruption was actually small compared to many during the past two hundred years. The largest include Agung on the island of Bali in 1963; Krakatoa, Indonesia, in 1883; Tambora, Indonesia, in 1815; and Laki, Iceland, in 1783. Large modern eruptions usually cool a region or hemisphere a degree or two Fahrenheit (about 1°C). The cooling normally lasts one to three years as the ash and gases slowly fall out of the stratosphere.
How much colder do you think volcanoes erupting across the entire globe would change the climate?
 
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Jamdoc

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Glaciers and ice sheets being one of the immediate sources of water for the flood doesn't mean God didn't do it. Just like God caused it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights, God would cause the ice sheets and glaciers to melt. Water from the heavens, water from the deep fountains. The scablands in Eastern Washington were caused by a torrent of water surging across the land and scouring all the topsoil off of it when the glaciers unleashed.
 
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coffee4u

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Glaciers and ice sheets being one of the immediate sources of water for the flood doesn't mean God didn't do it. Just like God caused it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights, God would cause the ice sheets and glaciers to melt. Water from the heavens, water from the deep fountains. The scablands in Eastern Washington were caused by a torrent of water surging across the land and scouring all the topsoil off of it when the glaciers unleashed.

The world didn't have glaciers and ice for him to melt. The world as God created it was a warm glasshouse surrounded by a water canopy. It didn't get cold until ash filled the sky which dropped the temperature which then produced snow and ice.
This is why God allowed mankind meat after the came off the ark, he knew they would need meat for sustenance in the new harsh climate.
 
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LoG

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The world didn't have glaciers and ice for him to melt. The world as God created it was a warm glasshouse surrounded by a water canopy. It didn't get cold until ash filled the sky which dropped the temperature which then produced snow and ice.

Genesis 1:2 says And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Being that there was no sun shining until day 4, the waters would have been frozen. There is no verse I know of that mentions all the ice had melted before the Flood started or the climate across the Earth other then the localized area where He created mankind. Various ice core histories show that there were glaciers back then.

paleoclime.jpg

Life Forms before end of Ice Age and after Seven Days of Genesis

Below (above) is a chart showing temperature changes on the Earth over the period in question, starting at the left when the Earth was just emerging from the last "Ice Age" episode, and running towards the right until (roughly) just before the industrial ages. The chart's "0" level is based on today's "normal" global temperature baseline. What we see are global temperatures slowly rising, then rapidly increasing, then beginning a decline, then suddenly sharply declining again. This is followed, very shortly thereafter, by an almost instantaneous surge back upwards to "normal" levels and then a slow climb to the days of Adam's time (which was warmer than today), and a fall-off again after Noah's flood followed by an unsteady oscillation across most of the rest of human history.
 
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Job 33:6

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Genesis 1:2 says And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Being that there was no sun shining until day 4, the waters would have been frozen. There is no verse I know of that mentions all the ice had melted before the Flood started or the climate across the Earth other then the localized area where He created mankind. Various ice core histories show that there were glaciers back then.

View attachment 271404

Life Forms before end of Ice Age and after Seven Days of Genesis

Are you not contradicting yourself when you note "face of the waters" in the beginning but then say that water was frozen until day 4?
 
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Jamdoc

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Are you not contradicting yourself when you note "face of the waters" in the beginning but then say that water was frozen until day 4?
No, he wouldn't be. Ice is still water.
 
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Job 33:6

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No, he wouldn't be. Ice is still water.

Why not just use the word ice? Was there not a Hebrew word for ice?

I also wonder if there is any other case in which the word waters refers to ice in scripture.
 
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coffee4u

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Genesis 1:2 says And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Yet again another evolution lover here to twist scripture.
face of the waters, if the water had been frozen it would have said face of the ice.

hammāyim
means liquid. Also used to refer to urine and other bodily fluids.
The same word is used here
And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters [הַמַּ֖יִם - hammayim] were dried up from off the earth.
It does not mean ice, solid or anything frozen.

 
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LoG

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Why not just use the word ice? Was there not a Hebrew word for ice?
There is but used in the context of frost or hail/ice pellets

I also wonder if there is any other case in which the word waters refers to ice in scripture.
Not that I can think of specifically or find in any searches though logically would think there are a number of references to water where it would be alluding to both water and ice when speaking of the seas and boundaries set for them.
 
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Job 33:6

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There is but used in the context of frost or hail/ice pellets


Not that I can think of specifically or find in any searches though logically would think there are a number of references to water where it would be alluding to both water and ice when speaking of the seas and boundaries set for them.

Do prominent scholars agree with the suggestion of the word meaning ice and not water?
 
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LoG

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Do prominent scholars agree with the suggestion of the word meaning ice and not water?

Scholars agree that when there is no sun or sunlight, the earth gets very cold which in turn leads to water freezing. Being that heaven and Earth and the water pre-existed the first day of creation, it stands to reason the "waters" would have been all or mostly ice depending on how long of a gap there was.
Maybe my living in the great white north makes me appreciate how quickly water starts to freeze when there is no sun and warmth :)
 
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coffee4u

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hammāyim means liquid. It does not mean ice, solid or anything frozen.


Genesis 1 : 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [הַמָּֽיִם׃ - hammāyim]
Genesis 1 : 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, [הַמָּ֑יִם - hammāyim] and let it divide the waters [מַ֖יִם - mayim] from the waters. [לָמָֽיִם׃ - lāmāyim]
Genesis 1 : 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters [הַמַּ֙יִם֙ - hammayim] which under the firmament from the waters [הַמַּ֔יִם - hammayim] which above the firmament: and it was so.
Genesis 1 : 9 And God said, Let the waters [הַמַּ֜יִם - hammayim] under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry appear: and it was so.
Genesis 1 : 10 And God called the dry Earth; and the gathering together of the waters [הַמַּ֖יִם - hammayim] called he Seas: and God saw that good.
Genesis 1 : 20 And God said, Let the waters [הַמַּ֔יִם - hammayim] bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Genesis 1 : 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters [הַמַּ֜יִם - hammayim] brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that good.
Genesis 1 : 22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters [הַמַּ֙יִם֙ - hammayim] in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
 
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Job 33:6

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Scholars agree that when there is no sun or sunlight, the earth gets very cold which in turn leads to water freezing. Being that heaven and Earth and the water pre-existed the first day of creation, it stands to reason the "waters" would have been all or mostly ice depending on how long of a gap there was.
Maybe my living in the great white north makes me appreciate how quickly water starts to freeze when there is no sun and warmth :)

I'll take your answer as a "no", they are not known to support your prior statement.
 
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LoG

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hammāyim means liquid. It does not mean ice, solid or anything frozen.

Then by extension it would also contradict your fabled:

There was a water vapour canopy all around the earth.

If hammāyim can be used for vapour, it can also be used for ice.
 
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LoG

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I'll take your answer as a "no", they are not known to support your prior statement.

The First Judgment: The World Prior To Adam There may have been many judgments upon the earth since its beginning millions or billions of years ago; however, the present commentary will deal only with the last tens of thousands of years of earth's existence. In Genesis 1:2, the verses written by Moses (as author of the Genesis account) portray an earth that was veiled in darkness so that its form could not be discerned. The earth at that time was covered with water (ice) high above the mountain tops so that it gave the appearance of being a dark revolving sphere of frozen water
https://www.amazon.ca/Charting-Supernatural-Judgements-Planet-Earth/dp/1452046778

I would suspect most prominent scholars haven't given it any thought as I hadn't in 60+ years of reading Genesis 1. Have you seen any of them specifically re butt the idea that the water was not ice? It's rational assumption based on what is written there. Surely some observant atheist must have remarked on the discrepancy in past.
 
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Job 33:6

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https://www.amazon.ca/Charting-Supernatural-Judgements-Planet-Earth/dp/1452046778

I would suspect most prominent scholars haven't given it any thought as I hadn't in 60+ years of reading Genesis 1. Have you seen any of them specifically re butt the idea that the water was not ice?

Perhaps there is a reason they haven't given it any thought.

I haven't heard anyone rebuke the idea that the word means ice, no more than i have heard scholars rebuke the idea that the word is Hebrew for chocolate pancakes. But of course this doesn't justify such an interpretation in either case.
 
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coffee4u

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Then by extension it would also contradict your fabled:



If hammāyim can be used for vapour, it can also be used for ice.

People say "water vapour" the do not say "water ice" and if we put it around the other way and say "ice water" that simply means very cold water, not ice.
The first mention of frost is in Genesis 31:40 This is because frost or ice was unknown to the pre-flood peoples.

You are the one bringing in fables since there is no Biblical backup for ice during the creation.
 
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Job 33:6

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Then by extension it would also contradict your fabled:



If hammāyim can be used for vapour, it can also be used for ice.

I think this response makes more sense because it suggests that it isn't the physical form of the H2O, rather it's just the H2O itself.

In which case Genesis would read that the spirit of God was hovering over the face of H2O.

Where does scripture describe a vapour canopy?
 
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coffee4u

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I think this response makes more sense because it suggests that it isn't the physical form of the H2O, rather it's just the H2O itself.

In which case Genesis would read that the spirit of God was hovering over the face of H2O.

Where does scripture describe a vapour canopy?

Except the word used refers to liquid, fluid, not solid.

The water vapour canopy was made on day 2
Genesis 1
6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

That possibly there was no rain before the flood.

Genesis 2:5-6
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

That this was the first rainbow.

Genesis 9:12-17
12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”
17 So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth.”

The canopy kept the world at an even warm temperature which is another reason that ice, frost, snow never shows up in any early scripture -because it was unknown to pre-flood people. It is also one of the reasons for long life and how certain animals because of the weather, the availability of food, were able to continue growing- the megafauna. Not only was there no extream temperatures to deal with but it protected the earth from space radiation and UV light. The earth was a glasshouse.


At the flood the canopy came down.
Genesis 7:11
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Obviously we have clouds and rain, but this vapour canopy is thin and offers us very little protection from UV rays and space radiation.
After the flood came an ice age due to the ash in the sky and the land cooling down.

The Genesis Flood Caused the Ice Age
This is also why meat was given to mankind after the flood, in the new world with more extream temperatures, and especially through the ice age, man would need the meat.
 
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