Daniel Marsh
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- Jun 28, 2015
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I was converted to Christ in an AOG church in 1966, and received the baptism with the Spirit and the gift of tongues three weeks later. I love using tongues as part of my prayer, and I don't know what I would do without it. Even though I left the Pentecostal movement in 1978, and have been an elder in the Presbyterian church for the last 23 years, I have continued praying in tongues in my personal prayer times. In fact I pray in tongues everywhere when I want to.Also, there's two other forums for followers of Jesus who believe in the manifestation of the spiritual gifts including tongues and others aren't suppose to post in those areas. On the forums page, 'the 'Spiritual Growth" forum then click. "'Spiritual Gifts." There's also a subforum "Sign Gifts" available.
I too get tired of cessationists then God reminded me I was one once! I didnt say anything against them. I just didnt realize til about 20 years ago that they were for today.
You'd best be serving others by writing your views in the appropriate forums where you have the right to debate the issues with like-minded believers, than to attack the faith of Charismatics on their own protected forum.It is also about serving others. too
Couldn't agree moreOscarr I understand what you are saying and agree. But even with the forum rules posted and the please read before posting, there are some who are determined to post their opposition - as you know. They reject those Scriptures. They dont rknow the difference in the tongues, etc How much plainer can it be - do not forbid speaking in tongues I Cor 14.
Plowing through their objections have made me even stronger in what I had studied and believe. But I am at the point where it would really be nice for some area just for learning and sharing instead of the distraction and aggravation of constantly defending those Scriptures.
But we all know if it just wasn't what it is, there wouldn't be all this opposition. They're offended.
If the debate about tongues is in the Controversial Theology Forum or any other forum where anyone can debate, we can have a lot of enjoyment and fun debating the issue ad infinitum. I love a good stouch - keeps my brain alive. If a genuine person wants to ask genuine questions about tongues or any of the other gifts of the Spirit, he would be silly to put the question in a general forum where anyone can respond, attack, or debate. He would be better of putting his question on a protected forum where anyone who attacked his post and others' answers can be reported and have their posts removed from the thread.Oscarr I understand what you are saying and agree. But even with the forum rules posted and the please read before posting, there are some who are determined to post their opposition - as you know. They reject those Scriptures. They dont rknow the difference in the tongues, etc How much plainer can it be - do not forbid speaking in tongues I Cor 14.
Plowing through their objections have made me even stronger in what I had studied and believe. But I am at the point where it would really be nice for some area just for learning and sharing There is distraction and aggravation in constantly defending those Scriptures.
But we all know if speaking in tongues just wasn't what it is, there wouldn't be all this opposition. They're offended.
Yes it is!Debating the validity of tongues is not allowed in this particular forum, right? (too lazy to go look right now)
Why are you sad?I am not debating. I am answering the question how to tell if something is of God. We are told that God expects it to be in order and of good taste.
In my mourning reading I did find a text of interest that OP would find useful.
Ephesians 6:18 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
Pray at all times in the Spirit with every prayer and request, and stay alert with all perseverance and intercession for all the saints.
You are absolutely correct. Groans and cries from the heart are a form of speaking in unknown tongues. Paul said that NO MAN understands your tongues. It is not a foreign language or even a real language at all. Only God can look into your heart and know what is being expressed/said.So I was wondering about this and before you just reply to my title, I ask you to humbly read my post.
I was curious about this because when I first started to pray in the Spirit I would have doubts, as I'm sure most do, if it was real or legitimate. I still do to be honest.
My question is, does the form or fashion of your prayer language really matter?
Scripture is clear that spiritual prayer is unintelligible to man, so any groans or sounds we make in faith-filled prayer, would that then classify as Spirit Filled prayer?
Mainly just to help those who may doubt, and thus by doubting not try.
If you look closely at what Paul says about speaking in tongues in 1 Corinthians, he doesn't talk at all about groaning and sighing while in prayer. He talks about deliberately and knowingly praying in tongues and interchanging it with praying in his native learned language. We need to accept what is actually there in in the chapter instead of trying to cobble another verse about groaning out of context into it.You are absolutely correct. Groans and cries from the heart are a form of speaking in unknown tongues. Paul said that NO MAN understands your tongues. It is not a foreign language or even a real language at all. Only God can look into your heart and know what is being expressed/said.
I worried about this when I first started speaking in tongues some 49 years ago. Eventually the Lord taught me the truth and I have ceased all such worry. We all can and DO speak in tongues. Every believer reading this has spoken in tongues. You just did not know what you were doing when you did it. That little cry that came out when interceding... that was tongues. That yearning cry that welled up in prayer and devotion... that was tongues. That groaning and sighing while in prayer... that too was tongues. Only God knows what it meant... and that is all that matters.
Jesus said that if you are a believer you speak in unknown tongues. Believe it! You have!
You are absolutely correct. Groans and cries from the heart are a form of speaking in unknown tongues. Paul said that NO MAN understands your tongues. It is not a foreign language or even a real language at all. Only God can look into your heart and know what is being expressed/said.
I worried about this when I first started speaking in tongues some 49 years ago. Eventually the Lord taught me the truth and I have ceased all such worry. We all can and DO speak in tongues. Every believer reading this has spoken in tongues. You just did not know what you were doing when you did it. That little cry that came out when interceding... that was tongues. That yearning cry that welled up in prayer and devotion... that was tongues. That groaning and sighing while in prayer... that too was tongues. Only God knows what it meant... and that is all that matters.
Jesus said that if you are a believer you speak in unknown tongues. Believe it! You have!
If you look closely at what Paul says about speaking in tongues in 1 Corinthians, he doesn't talk at all about groaning and sighing while in prayer. He talks about deliberately and knowingly praying in tongues and interchanging it with praying in his native learned language. We need to accept what is actually there in in the chapter instead of trying to cobble another verse about groaning out of context into it.
I was in agreement with some prominent Bible scholars.
Ernst Käsemann on Romans 8.
Since a recognizable feature of worship provides the most likely object of Paul’s reference to groaning, Käsemann identifies it with tongues…
"Commentary on the Romans" (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1980)
Gordon Fee
“In any case, what Paul describes in Romans 8:26-27 is clearly a form of “praying in the Spirit,” the language he also uses for “speaking in tongues” in 1 Corinthians 14:15-16.
"Listening to the Spirit in the Text" By Gordon D. Fee
Wayne A. Grudem
“…Romans 8:26-27 talks about intercession that we make in sounds that are not fully understood by us, and therefore it is a phenomenon that has some similarities to speaking in tongues.”
"Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine"
Moreover, Paul states in right up front, no uncertain terms, that NO man understands tongues. No man of any language.
1 Corinthians 14:
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
No man means no man. If you are in a hall with people who represent every known language, and a person in that group can understand your prayer, then it is not tongues as described by Paul's letter. It may be some other manifestation that resembles tongues such as the Acts 2 event. It may be prophesying in an other language (such as the Acts 2 event). But it is not tongues.
Scripture cannot be broken. I understand Pentecostal and Charismatic believers have trouble with this undeniable fact. They are stuck in a incorrect teaching from uneducated men from a hundred years ago. In an attempt to escape these words they twist and bend and invent unfounded ideas and teachings. It only serves to rob believers of this experience.
It that is tragic, because so many beautiful believers go through years, some all their life, wondering why God has not granted the promise of Jesus: "they shall speak with new tongues" not knowing that they have already done it. Some even wonder if they are even believers. I have no doubt many of them have actually cried and groaned in prayer for tongues, not knowing that they were doing the very thing they were asking for. They are robbed of the joy by this incorrect teaching.
My experience has been that down through the years these tongues become very intricate and very much resemble real languages in both soundings and syntax.... but still, NO man understands them as being an actually earthly language. I myself actually prophesied before I spoke in tongues. And when I did pray in tongues a short while later it was very simple and a little strained. That because of incorrect expectations. I did not speak articulate French or ancient Greek. No language at all by our definition. Just a few words issued forth from the inexpressible feelings of my heart.