The fatal flaw of Universalism

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Death & destruction are not eternal.

"Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story…that’s why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind.

Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both are completely true.

We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.

To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.

If I said to my kids, “Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie,” I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet “hell mindset” Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas." -Kenneth Larsen-

What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?

What Does it Mean to “Perish?”

"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn’t go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person’s failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him." -The Message-
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So much for Universalism.
Two questions:
1) Can you name the unforgivable sin?
2) What has been taken away from the book of Revelation?
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
What does that mean? Does it mean that some day by and by God will have mercy, pity and will spare?

For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. (Jer 30:17)

Of course it does der Alter. God restored Israel through Daniel, Zerubabbel (love that name!) and Nehemiah who built the Second Temple, remember?

For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for life; Weeping may endure for a night, But joy comes in the morning. (Ps 30:5)
 
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. (Jer 30:17)

Of course it does der Alter. God restored Israel through Daniel, Zerubabbel (love that name!) and Nehemiah who built the Second Temple, remember?

For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for life; Weeping may endure for a night, But joy comes in the morning. (Ps 30:5)

Why do you insist on taking scripture out of context?

Psalms 30:4 plainly tells us "sing unto the Lord, O you saints of His."

So we know in vs. 30 it is the redeemed that is being spoken of.

Your doctrine is formed by false pretenses. But you refuse to see it!
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Why do you insist on taking scripture out of context?

Psalms 30:4 plainly tells us "sing unto the Lord, O you saints of His."

So we know in vs. 30 it is the redeemed that is being spoken of.

Your doctrine is formed by false pretenses. But you refuse to see it!

God restored Israel after the Babylonian captivity Charlie. Who will be restored in the time of restitution of all things? Here's a clue: ALL of creation.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
God restored Israel after the Babylonian captivity Charlie. Who will be restored in the time of restitution of all things? Here's a clue: ALL of creation.

Dear Shrewd: The master plan of Abba is a long range plan of bringing everything & everybody together into Him with nothing, absolutely nothing exempt from His rule.

He is supreme in the beginning, He is supreme in the end!

All broken & dislocated pieces of the universe fixed in vibrant harmony.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God restored Israel after the Babylonian captivity Charlie. Who will be restored in the time of restitution of all things? Here's a clue: ALL of creation.

Actually, only a few of Judah, Benjamin and Levi came back from the Babylonian captivity. The rest joined the bulk of "lost" Israel, but they are still known to God. Some can still be identified as nations today.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why do you insist on taking scripture out of context?

Psalms 30:4 plainly tells us "sing unto the Lord, O you saints of His."

So we know in vs. 30 it is the redeemed that is being spoken of.

Your doctrine is formed by false pretenses. But you refuse to see it!

The context, Charlie, is the entire Bible, which shows us a perfect Cosmos in the beginning, and a new/perfect Cosmos at the end. In that end, God is All in all, with no one mentioned as left out.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. (Jer 30:17)
Of course it does der Alter. God restored Israel through Daniel, Zerubabbel (love that name!) and Nehemiah who built the Second Temple, remember?
For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for life; Weeping may endure for a night, But joy comes in the morning. (Ps 30:5)
I read your out-of-context proof text and I can't find where God was talking to the unrighteous dead in Sheol or Ge Hinnom. Maybe you can show me where that is?
Your other out-of-context proof text has already been addressed but here is my take.

Psa 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psa 30:5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
Psa 30:6 And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved.
Vs. 5 is clearly addressed to living saints who can sing. Do dead people in sheol and Ge Hinnom sing?
When "God restored Israel through Daniel, Zerubabbel (love that name!) and Nehemiah" did that include the unrighteous dead in sheol and Ge hinnom?
And if you are feeling contentious I can show you where the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of fiery punishment and they called it sheol and Ge hinnom which are written as hades and Gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and thus also in the NT.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The context, Charlie, is the entire Bible, which shows us a perfect Cosmos in the beginning, and a new/perfect Cosmos at the end. In that end, God is All in all, with no one mentioned as left out.
Only if you ignore the end of the book.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
One continuous narrative.
Vs. 4 “there shall be no more death.” After this there should not me any more death.
Vs. 5 “I make all things new.”
Vs. 7 “He that overcomes shall inherit all things.’ This makes a distinction between those who overcome and those who do not overcome.
.....Although vs. 4 says no more death four verses later vs. 8 eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is still the second death. NO salvation mentioned after this.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [the new Jerusalem] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
If there is nothing remaining which defiles, works an abomination or makes a lie this verse is unnecessary.
Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
According to UR at this time everybody should be keeping the prophecy of this book. This verse assumes the opposite there must be some who are not keeping the prophecy.
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Instead of saying that everyone will be saved the angel said “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
This passage distinguishes between those who do the commandments and who have the right to the tree of life and those who don’t do the commandments and don’t have the right to the tree of light.
.....Five verses from the end of the book, vs. 15, there are still dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and liars outside the city and there is no mention of salvation after this.
Do you think maybe John got it wrong?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,419
6,800
✟916,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Two questions:
1) Can you name the unforgivable sin?
2) What has been taken away from the book of Revelation?


Prefer you comment on the scriptures which speak of people not receiving eternal life before asking questions.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Prefer you comment on the scriptures which speak of people not receiving eternal life before asking questions.
I didn't see any scriptures which speak of people not receiving eternal life before asking questions. - lol

I thought people received eternal life AFTER asking questions. (not before)

Maybe if you threaten them with hell, any questions would be irrelevant.
They wouldn't REALLY have any choice.

Two questions:
1) Can you name the unforgivable sin?
2) What has been taken away from the book of Revelation?
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Actually, only a few of Judah, Benjamin and Levi came back from the Babylonian captivity. The rest joined the bulk of "lost" Israel, but they are still known to God. Some can still be identified as nations today.

Yes, then He sent Jesus to collect the spares, as it were, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, as prophesied in Is 42-53. And went considerably further by revealing His plan to save everyone.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,419
6,800
✟916,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, then He sent Jesus to collect the spares, as it were, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, as prophesied in Is 42-53. And went considerably further by revealing His plan to save everyone.

Actually there is no plan to save everyone. Most find their way to destruction not to eternal life.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And that is found here:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Charlie24
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Actually there is no plan to save everyone. Most find their way to destruction not to eternal life.

iu


The Author began His plan in perfection. The Finisher ends His plan in perfection! He is the beginning & He is the ending. Nothing, but nothing stands capable of interfering with it!

The koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Actually there is no plan to save everyone. Most find their way to destruction not to eternal life.

Keeping a tally card is silly.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,419
6,800
✟916,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Keeping a tally card is silly.

Scripture is not silly. It's important and correct and proves the doctrine of Universalism (rightly banned from most of the forum) to be a false doctrine.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums