DO BELIEVERS HAVE FREEWILL?

GaveMeJoy · Feb 4, 2020

RDKirk said:
As far as I can see in scripture, as far as I've seen in my own life, free will does nothing but send us to hell

This is the truth. Romans 3, John 15. Mark 7, Romans 1:21 The human heart is exceedingly wicked. Men choose even, God is just.

Another thought is this: The great mystery is that the scriptures tell us God is not the author of sin, even though he created the pen, paper, and authors who did.

SavedByGrace3 · Feb 4, 2020

So how to we treat Romans 3
11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;

How can you choose if you are not seeking? Seems God would have to be involved in this first step.

Si_monfaith · Feb 4, 2020

SavedByGrace3 said:
So how to we treat Romans 3
11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;

How can you choose if you are not seeking? Seems God would have to be involved in this first step.

Conversely, why don't none seek after God or why do all stray away from God? Is it because their will is free?

RDKirk · Feb 4, 2020

Si_monfaith said:
Conversely, why don't none seek after God or why do all stray away from God? Is it because their will is free?

It's because they are slaves to sin. A slave does not have free will.

Si_monfaith · Feb 5, 2020

RDKirk said:
It's because they are slaves to sin. A slave does not have free will.

John 12:40: "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their
heart, and be converted".

If sin makes them stray away from God, why does God blind their eyes & harden their hearts?

RDKirk · Feb 5, 2020

Si_monfaith said:
John 12:40: "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their
heart, and be converted".

If sin makes them stray away from God, why does God blind their eyes & harden their hearts?

Why does it matter?

Si_monfaith · Feb 5, 2020

RDKirk said:
Why does it matter?

Do you mean to say the power called sin (not the acts of sin) is God's instrument which leads people away from God?

Si_monfaith · Feb 5, 2020

SavedByGrace3 said:
No... it is just that whatever choice we might make He knows about it beforehand and Him knowing really has no affect on that choice. We choose... He knows. Simple as that.

The question is not whether God would have foreknown if a contrary choice had been made but whether there is only one choice or more than one choices for God's foreknowledge on one particular decision?

RDKirk · Feb 5, 2020

Si_monfaith said:
Do you mean to say the power called sin (not the acts of sin) is God's instrument which leads people away from God?

I mean to say:

We who are members of the Body of Christ have been given a mission on this earth by Christ. There is information each of us needs to know in order to carry out our individual missions. As told by James, the Lord is perfectly willing to give us that information.

There are a lot of questions the enemy asks that are not "need to know" for our mission, but are intended to distract and confuse.

Is this something you need to know, otherwise you can't perform the mission? Will you be unable to have faith if you don't get a definitive answer to this question?

Does it truly matter?

Si_monfaith · Feb 5, 2020

RDKirk said:
I mean to say:

We who are members of the Body of Christ have been given a mission on this earth by Christ. There is information each of us needs to know in order to carry out our individual missions. As told by James, the Lord is perfectly willing to give us that information.

There are a lot of questions the enemy asks that are not "need to know" for our mission, but are intended to distract and confuse.

Is this something you need to know, otherwise you can't perform the mission? Will you be unable to have faith if you don't get a definitive answer to this question?

Does it truly matter?

In other words, are you saying it doesn't matter because you don't have the answer?

If it doesn't matter, why would the Spirit write, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their
heart, and be converted (John 12:40)"?

RDKirk · Feb 5, 2020

Si_monfaith said:
In other words, are you saying it doesn't matter because you don't have the answer?

If it doesn't matter, why would the Spirit write, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their
heart, and be converted (John 12:40)"?

I'm saying it doesn't matter because the answer doesn't change my mission, nor does it change my desire to perform my mission. The answer to that question makes no difference to anything important to obedience or faith.

And the mission is what counts: "May thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Si_monfaith · Feb 6, 2020

RDKirk said:
I'm saying it doesn't matter because the answer doesn't change my mission, nor does it change my desire to perform my mission. The answer to that question makes no difference to anything important to obedience or faith.

And the mission is what counts: "May thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

So why did the Spirit write it?

So you mean to say "all scripture" doesn't count according to 2 Timothy 3:16?

Si_monfaith · Feb 6, 2020

RDKirk said:
I'm saying it doesn't matter because the answer doesn't change my mission, nor does it change my desire to perform my mission. The answer to that question makes no difference to anything important to obedience or faith.

And the mission is what counts: "May thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

RDKirk said:
It's because they are slaves to sin. A slave does not have free will.

If it didn't matter, why did you reply as above?

hhodgson · Feb 8, 2020

Si_monfaith said:
John 12:40: "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart".

If it was you who "heard", "received", "applied", "made" & "chose", what does the above mean?

Do you believe that God won't contradict himself in His Word? At first reading of John 12:40... it does "seem" that the passage is saying God is the cause of Israel’s unbelief because He blinded their eyes so they could not see, and be saved, and healed. This is contradictory compared to...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That promise of God was meant for them also. The Word also says...

John 3:15 that everyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life.

God "did" blind their eyes and hardened their hearts, but... it was because they simply refused to BELIEVE in Him, and He simply honored their wishes and desires of NOT seeking to bringing themselves to salvation, and what He blinded their eyes to, was the spiritual truth that their hardened hearts would not except. They simply chose NOT to believe.

In Acts 28:27 Luke explains, "For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

Notice the underlined words "their eyes have they closed." It was Israel’s willing unbelief that prevented them from seeing the truth and accepting it, and those who refused to believe were not converted because they by choice did not want God in their lives or to be saved.

Simple as that...

Si_monfaith · Feb 9, 2020

hhodgson said:
Do you believe that God won't contradict himself in His Word? At first reading of John 12:40... it does "seem" that the passage is saying God is the cause of Israel’s unbelief because He blinded their eyes so they could not see, and be saved, and healed. This is contradictory compared to...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That promise of God was meant for them also. The Word also says...

John 3:15 that everyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life.

God "did" blind their eyes and hardened their hearts, but... it was because they simply refused to BELIEVE in Him, and He simply honored their wishes and desires of NOT seeking to bringing themselves to salvation, and what He blinded their eyes to, was the spiritual truth that their hardened hearts would not except. They simply chose NOT to believe.

In Acts 28:27 Luke explains, "For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

Notice the underlined words "their eyes have they closed." It was Israel’s willing unbelief that prevented them from seeing the truth and accepting it, and those who refused to believe were not converted because they by choice did not want God in their lives or to be saved.

Simple as that...

View attachment 271698

hhodgson said:
God "did" blind their eyes and hardened their hearts, but... it was because they simply refused to BELIEVE in Him,

Were they hardened because they simply refused to believe OR they refused to believe according to what Isaiah prophesied about God's plan 800 years ago?

If they refused to believe what is the need for God to harden them to refuse to believe?

Si_monfaith · Feb 9, 2020

hhodgson said:
Do you believe that God won't contradict himself in His Word? At first reading of John 12:40... it does "seem" that the passage is saying God is the cause of Israel’s unbelief because He blinded their eyes so they could not see, and be saved, and healed. This is contradictory compared to...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That promise of God was meant for them also. The Word also says...

John 3:15 that everyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life.

God "did" blind their eyes and hardened their hearts, but... it was because they simply refused to BELIEVE in Him, and He simply honored their wishes and desires of NOT seeking to bringing themselves to salvation, and what He blinded their eyes to, was the spiritual truth that their hardened hearts would not except. They simply chose NOT to believe.

In Acts 28:27 Luke explains, "For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

Notice the underlined words "their eyes have they closed." It was Israel’s willing unbelief that prevented them from seeing the truth and accepting it, and those who refused to believe were not converted because they by choice did not want God in their lives or to be saved.

Simple as that...

View attachment 271698

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What does "all" mean when the verse talks about "but is longsuffering toward us"?

Why do you consider "all" to refer to "all individuals without exception", when the context in the verse refers to "all of us" & not "all individuals without exception"?

hhodgson · Feb 10, 2020

Si_monfaith said:
Were they hardened because they simply refused to believe OR they refused to believe according to what Isaiah prophesied about God's plan 800 years ago?

If they refused to believe what is the need for God to harden them to refuse to believe?

Your going backwards again. They refused to believe is why their hearts were hardened. They "chose" to... refuse to believe. Your version is not the correct interpretation and is inconsistent with other statements of God's desire to see ALL men believe and be saved.

now faith · Feb 10, 2020

Si_monfaith said:
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What does "all" mean when the verse talks about "but is longsuffering toward us"?

Why do you consider "all" to refer to "all individuals without exception", when the context in the verse refers to "all of us" & not "all individuals without exception"?

Would you consider this verse literal?

Hosea 4: 15. Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Beth-aven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

Si_monfaith · Feb 11, 2020

hhodgson said:
Your going backwards again. They refused to believe is why their hearts were hardened. They "chose" to... refuse to believe. Your version is not the correct interpretation and is inconsistent with other statements of God's desire to see ALL men believe and be saved.

View attachment 271791

What is the need to harden the heart of a person who has already refused to believe in Jesus?

Si_monfaith · Feb 11, 2020

now faith said:
Would you consider this verse literal?

Hosea 4: 15. Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Beth-aven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

Why do you consider "all" to refer to "all individuals without exception", when the context in the verse refers to "all of us" & not "all individuals without exception"?

What relevance does your question have with mine?

DO BELIEVERS HAVE FREEWILL?

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