Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. (Romans 13:1)

nonaeroterraqueous · Feb 2, 2020

topher694 said:
Saying the sabbath falls on a particular day of our calendar is silly. Strictly speaking it's probably a Tuesday or something.

Ironically, the Sabbath is today by the original way of reckoning the Sabbath. You're right about the leap days and leap months making it silly to tie the original Sabbath to our calendar, but it just happens to fall on Sunday this time around.

topher694 · Feb 2, 2020

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Ironically, the Sabbath is today by the original way of reckoning the Sabbath. You're right about the leap days and leap months making it silly to tie the original Sabbath to our calendar, but it just happens to fall on Sunday this time around.

Or proof that God has a sense of humor... lol

Eloy Craft · Feb 2, 2020

An angel broke Peter out of prison.

timewerx · Feb 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
In other threads it is asserted by some that Romans 13:1-7 means unconditional obedience to government even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God’s Law.

Not totally.

Read Romans 13:3
3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil

SO what if the ruler is a terror to the good work??

Is that a legitimate authority / ruler?

Because right now, our rulers are terror to good work. The Bible says, we must expose the works of evil... But our rulers would cause terror to those who do so.

Worse still, they share their bed with totally evil people because they have lots of money.

So our rulers cause terror to those who work for God (not for the antiChrist) while being friends with the most wicked.

It doesn't agree with Romans 13:3. What gives??

section9+1 · Feb 3, 2020

I read that we are to be in subjection to those who rule over us and we are to obey our leaders. Both are different. Subjection is not obedience and government rulers are not our leaders.

royal priest · Feb 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
In other threads it is asserted by some that Romans 13:1-7 means unconditional obedience to government even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God’s Law.

Are there examples in Holy Scriptures of God’s chosen disobeying a wicked civil Government edict/law or religious authority in contravention of the Righteousness of God?

Yes there are examples.

Daniel 3: NASB

8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He doesnot, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

And here:

Acts 4: NASB

18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

Other examples would include the Exodus out of Egypt, Rahab hiding spies, Samuel killing Agag, and the list could go on. The issue is a matter of obedience to God over man.

BobRyan · Feb 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
In other threads it is asserted by some that Romans 13:1-7 means unconditional obedience to government even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God’s Law.

Are there examples in Holy Scriptures of God’s chosen disobeying a wicked civil Government edict/law or religious authority in contravention of the Righteousness of God?

Yes there are examples.

Daniel 3: NASB

8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He doesnot, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

And here:

Acts 4: NASB

18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

For example - If the government tells you to kill babies -- even unborn babies ... it is still a sin for you to do it.

BTW - the idea that murder is strictly a political issue and not a Christian issue about "morality and what-is-sin" is like saying that enslaving another human is not a Christian issue it is just a matter of politics.

Hawkins · Feb 3, 2020

The big picture is, what a government is is usually defined by who the officials are. Who the officials are is usually defined by who the people are. Who the people are ties closely to how the culture is built up.

A government is thus usually an end result of the behavior and culture of a group of people. It is thus said that it's God who established such a government simply because it's a result mostly in accordance to people's behavior.

That said. Christians have no part in this world with the establishments of various types on it. No one is righteous in terms of behavior, we can be righteous only in terms of faith under the New Covenant. Thus no government is built close to a righteous one. Governments are just the Caesars doing their jobs disciplining a people incapable of being righteous. Christians should not have any part in this establishment. This world is not our home.

It's the government's right to war against the rebels. If you take part into it, it means you train up yourself to be rebellious. Christianity if possible is to achieve its own kingdom made up of millions of followers. The governments will try their best to stop Christianity and kill Christians if potentially Christianity is a possible rebellious force. This is certainly against God's will. If you take part of it, you may subject yourself to the said judgment.

Yekcidmij · Feb 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
In other threads it is asserted by some that Romans 13:1-7 means unconditional obedience to government even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God’s Law.

Are there examples in Holy Scriptures of God’s chosen disobeying a wicked civil Government edict/law or religious authority in contravention of the Righteousness of God?

People use that verse as a hammer when it's their guy or their party in power. One of the things that isn't considered is the context in which Paul says these things. It must be considered that Paul is writing to Rome after the expulsion of Claudius and the Jews had returned.

"[Claudius] banished from Rome all the Jews, who were continually making disturbances at the instigation of one Chrestus" - Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars, 527.

Acts 18:1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 18:2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome.

Romans 16:3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus.

So Paul is writing under the circumstances that the Jews had been expelled from Rome by Claudius because they were causing a disturbance at the instigation of "Chrestus." Paul looks to be writing this after the death of Claudius and Prisca and Aquila are back in Rome. It's given this background with previous trouble with the local authorities that Paul tells the Roman church to obey the authorities. So this might be less of an abstract universal principle and more of particular instructions to a specific audience with specific circumstances.

redleghunter · Feb 3, 2020

timewerx said:
Not totally.

Read Romans 13:3
3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil

SO what if the ruler is a terror to the good work??

Is that a legitimate authority / ruler?

Well said.

Maria Billingsley · Feb 3, 2020

redleghunter said:
In other threads it is asserted by some that Romans 13:1-7 means unconditional obedience to government even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God’s Law.

Are there examples in Holy Scriptures of God’s chosen disobeying a wicked civil Government edict/law or religious authority in contravention of the Righteousness of God?

Yes there are examples.

Daniel 3: NASB

8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He doesnot, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

And here:

Acts 4: NASB

18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

Yes we should obey the laws of the land. This is common sense otherwise we would end up in jail. What is happening currently is the justification of lawless leaders by quoting go to scriptures for edification and to ease the conscience. We should remember by this standard God also chose Nero, Caligula, Mussolini, Hitler etc. So if a Christian needs to justify lawless leaders, you will need to support the long list of evil persons who controlled nations in the past and discern wisley why God chose them.
Blessings

redleghunter · Feb 3, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
Yes we should obey the laws of the land. This is common sense otherwise we would end up in jail. What is happening currently is the justification of lawless leaders by quoting go to scriptures for edification and to ease the conscience. We should remember by this standard God also chose Nero, Caligula, Mussolini, Hitler etc. So if a Christian needs to justify lawless leaders, you will need to support the long list of evil persons who controlled nations in the past and discern wisley why God chose them.
Blessings

The OP really isn’t about supporting lawless leaders. But yes laws enacted can come evil persons and even Supreme Court Justices.

Peter J Barban · Feb 4, 2020

Here is an almost match: Rahab hid the Hebrew spies and lied about it which contributed to the downfall of her own people. She was later accepted into the nation of Israel.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. (Romans 13:1)

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