Even "mother" Teresa Pushing for Mary to be Considered "co-redemptrix"?

SwordmanJr

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I have heard it all before my dear friend. Its the same old untruths from people who do not understand Catholicism and are easily led by those who detest the faith. There are many people with a chip on their shoulder when it comes to the true faith that is Catholicism.

God bless you

Then why not offer a rebuttal to the story if you can prove it false? I didn't write the story. If everything that sounds bad about the vatican is false, then prove it. Irrational denials are meaningless when they're not any better than the genuinely false claims against the vatican.

Jr
 
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SwordmanJr

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You will know a tree by its fruits. Good job. :thumbsup:

This must be a favorite "self-made catholic victims" support group and society hangout. If you read the OP, there was nothing leveling an indictment against catholicism in general. It's about a specific article revealing a specific push from among over 6 million catholics world wide who wanted something done that not all catholics agree with.

So, why play the victim card over that? Are those of you complaining really that fragile?

Jr
 
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SwordmanJr

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So why do you avoid giving one?

I did give one. Didn't you see it? I make no charges of distinction among those who see Christ Jesus as the One and ONLY way. So, asking about my allegedly going after catholics is one of those wrong questions for which there is no right answer in relation to my outlook.

Jr
 
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anna ~ grace

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This article, years ago when it first came out, was very eye-opening to some deeper implications. Given that there were/are millions of catholics worldwide who believe Mary should be elevated as becoming a fourth member of the Trinity, which included "mother" Teresa giving her whole-hearted endorsement for such, I can't help but to wonder that there was/is already that level of adoration/worship of Mary in the hearts of many, whether it ever becomes an official doctrine of the roman catholic religion or not.

What are your thoughts?

Jr
Mary would not be elevated to the status as being a fourth person to the Trinity, as Catholics know and acknowledge that she is just a woman, and not God.

Yet her role in our salvation, in bearing God into the world, and even before this, at the Annunciation, giving her consent to be used for our salvation, makes her role very special among women, and Saints.

God can and does use Christians to help other Christians and bring them to Christ; how much more so Mary?
 
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anna ~ grace

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In the Catholic Christian understanding, those who have died in Christ and in a state of friendship with God leave the body, yet live, spiritually, with Christ, in Heaven.

These are the Saints.

They are still One with us, care about and for us, intercede for and pray for us, and help us to follow Christ.

Hebrews 11 and Hebrews 12:1-2

John 17:17-23

John 11:25-26
 
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everbecoming2007

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This article, years ago when it first came out, was very eye-opening to some deeper implications. Given that there were/are millions of catholics worldwide who believe Mary should be elevated as becoming a fourth member of the Trinity, which included "mother" Teresa giving her whole-hearted endorsement for such, I can't help but to wonder that there was/is already that level of adoration/worship of Mary in the hearts of many, whether it ever becomes an official doctrine of the roman catholic religion or not.

What are your thoughts?

Jr

My thoughts are that this article does not say that millions of Catholics want our Lady elevated to a Divine status.
 
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anna ~ grace

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My thoughts are that this article does not say that millions of Catholics want our Lady elevated to a Divine status.
We already believe she's the Mother of Christ, Mother of God (in the sense that Christ is God), Immaculate Conception, Help of Christians, and Mother of Mercy. We also know that she is a human woman, with a human mother and a human father.

She is also the First Christian, New Eve, and the Panagia (all-holy). She is also alive in Heaven, and still capable of being our Mother, friend, advocate, help, and intercessor. So she's pretty amazing! Not just as an historical figure, but as a Living Christian who loves us and helps us.
 
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SwordmanJr

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Mary would not be elevated to the status as being a fourth person to the Trinity, as Catholics know and acknowledge that she is just a woman, and not God.

Which is why that petition was of particular interest in contrasting the varying beliefs among catholics around the world.

Yet her role in our salvation, in bearing God into the world, and even before this, at the Annunciation, giving her consent to be used for our salvation, makes her role very special among women, and Saints.

Yes, Mary did indeed willingly endure the pregnancy period and the birth of the flesh the eternal God filled with Himself in the time and manner of His own choosing.

God can and does use Christians to help other Christians and bring them to Christ; how much more so Mary?

Well, if she were here, then perhaps she would do more, especially for other women in ministry. However, it appears that many people place more emphasis upon her than is expressed in scripture. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to see her as they wish where that vision exceeds what scripture shows to us, but that's on them, not the rest of mankind.

Jr
 
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SwordmanJr

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We already believe she's the Mother of Christ, Mother of God (in the sense that Christ is God), Immaculate Conception, Help of Christians, and Mother of Mercy. We also know that she is a human woman, with a human mother and a human father.

She is also the First Christian, New Eve, and the Panagia (all-holy). She is also alive in Heaven, and still capable of being our Mother, friend, advocate, help, and intercessor. So she's pretty amazing! Not just as an historical figure, but as a Living Christian who loves us and helps us.

So, what does she think about being elevated to the status of co-redemptrix? Has she appeared to anyone to divulge that information?

Do any catholics here believe she should be crowned as co-redemptrix?

Jr
 
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anna ~ grace

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So, what does she think about being elevated to the status of co-redemptrix? Has she appeared to anyone to divulge that information?

Do any catholics here believe she should be crowned as co-redemptrix?

Jr

The Church often declares teachings, Marian titles, and dogma through the witness of successive generations of theologians, and Saints. Sometimes this includes a private revelation or an Apparition.

The question is, how does Mary redeem us? Certainly not in the same way that Christ does, as she is not God, and is not the Lamb of God. Her blood does not cleanse us from sin, granted.

But does her "yes" to Gabriel and ultimately to God and to the salvation of mankind at the Annunciation help to redeem us? What of her sorrow at the foot of the Cross? Does Simeon's prophecy about her in Luke's Gospel mean that through her sorrow at seeing her Son pierced, she cooperated with her Son in the redemption of mankind?

These are deep theological questions, and they are the sort of questions which might be asked if this topic were to come up in Rome.
 
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everbecoming2007

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Do any catholics here believe she should be crowned as co-redemptrix?

Jr

We are all co-redeemers in that the working out of our salvation is not only an individual endeavor, but a communal one as we aid one another by prayer and charity. Our blessed Mother is preeminent in this cooperation through her assent to become the Theotokos.

I am not equipped to say whether coredemptrix is a fit title. Some warn it could lead to misunderstanding, and it certainly seems to among Protestants.

But so does the title "Theotokos" or "Mother of God." The meaning of a title must be clarified in its proper theological context, so misunderstandings do not justify scrapping the title "Theotokos."

Should this theological matter be dogmatized? I think it not prudent to declare dogmas unless there is a heresy to combat, especially since it will weaken the already tenuous relationship to the Orthodox faithful.
 
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tz620q

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Yes, but catholic teachers believe that because she went through giving birth to Jesus' body, being with Jesus at various times at a couple of times during His ministry, and then at the cross, should qualify her as "co-redemptrix," which they say means "beside" Jesus, not "co-equal." They always stop just short of declaring her to be Deity.

Did you not read the article?
There seems to be an implication in your post that Mary contributed nothing to Jesus' gestation other than a place to grow. Even thinking that she was some sort of surrogate to Jesus' fetus and contributed no DNA to the fetus, she would still have to provide nourishment for it to live. I am probably reading too much into your post, so I ask for you to clarify your position on this to dispel my confusion.

God be with us both.
 
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SwordmanJr

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There seems to be an implication in your post that Mary contributed nothing to Jesus' gestation other than a place to grow. Even thinking that she was some sort of surrogate to Jesus' fetus and contributed no DNA to the fetus, she would still have to provide nourishment for it to live. I am probably reading too much into your post, so I ask for you to clarify your position on this to dispel my confusion.

God be with us both.

She did indeed contribute what her body was created to provide by the very One who filled that flesh she had within her. Sounds like a dichotomy, but interesting nonetheless. Can you imagine what it's like having a baby growing within you that has no contributed, human, male chromosomes, which is to be filled with the One who created you?

Mary chose to be a willing vessel to bear forth that vessel that would contain the Spirit of the Most High. She functioned in accordance with how He made her, and then once born, she fulfilled her motherly duties along with Joseph until he was no longer in the picture. She continued in her duties as a mother, even to the cross.

Now, if you ask me if I'm willing to attribute to her what many religionists teach, no. I don't go in for all that veneration stuff, and praying to her.

1 Tim 2: I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Mary was/is not a co-redeemer. Her part was to be the bearer and a parent to the young boy until He grew into a man. She counted herself blessed among women to have been chosen for that task, and all the extra stuff men have added to that over the centuries, although called "theology," I simply don't buy it. I admire the woman for her courage, faith and steadfastness, and as a sister in the faith, but all the other hooptiloo beyond that, which is all man-made, I leave to those who wish to bow their knee to such, for it has no meaningful value to me nor to anyone's salvation. We have direct access to Christ Jesus, who is the very One who stated that He would never leave us nor forsake us. That wasn't a promise. It was a statement of fact. Those dudes out there who wear funny robes telling us otherwise are speaking from their own authority, not from any authority originating from the Lord.

Jr
 
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tz620q

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She did indeed contribute what her body was created to provide by the very One who filled that flesh she had within her. Sounds like a dichotomy, but interesting nonetheless. Can you imagine what it's like having a baby growing within you that has no contributed, human, male chromosomes, which is to be filled with the One who created you?

Traditionally, it is acknowledged that Jesus did have human chromosomes and that those came from Mary. It is entirely possible for God to make a progeny ex nihilo; but it appears from many quotes in the Bible that Jesus' humanity was allowed to develop in the normal human way. Perhaps so that we could see that God would humble Himself so completely and that we should humble ourselves like infants in front of Him.

Mary chose to be a willing vessel to bear forth that vessel that would contain the Spirit of the Most High. She functioned in accordance with how He made her, and then once born, she fulfilled her motherly duties along with Joseph until he was no longer in the picture. She continued in her duties as a mother, even to the cross.

This last weekend the readings were from the presentation in the Temple. Several points struck me. First, the Ark of the Covenant had been lost several hundred years before Jesus was brought to the Temple. So to the Jews, who viewed the Ark as the assurance that God was in the Holy of Holies, this was the first time in hundreds of years that God was in the Temple. Simeon and Anna were the only ones that recognized that fact. Simeon's prophecy of a sword piercing Mary's heart was fulfilled at the cross.

Now, if you ask me if I'm willing to attribute to her what many religionists teach, no. I don't go in for all that veneration stuff, and praying to her.

1 Tim 2: I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Mary was/is not a co-redeemer. Her part was to be the bearer and a parent to the young boy until He grew into a man. She counted herself blessed among women to have been chosen for that task, and all the extra stuff men have added to that over the centuries, although called "theology," I simply don't buy it. I admire the woman for her courage, faith and steadfastness, and as a sister in the faith, but all the other hooptiloo beyond that, which is all man-made, I leave to those who wish to bow their knee to such, for it has no meaningful value to me nor to anyone's salvation. We have direct access to Christ Jesus, who is the very One who stated that He would never leave us nor forsake us. That wasn't a promise. It was a statement of fact. Those dudes out there who wear funny robes telling us otherwise are speaking from their own authority, not from any authority originating from the Lord.

Jr

I agree with you mainly and think this is a tempest in a teapot really. From Wikipedia on the Papal Decree, Ineffabilis Deus

"It was not until 1854 that Pope Pius IX, with the support of the overwhelming majority of Roman Catholic bishops, whom he had consulted between 1851–1853, promulgated the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus (Latin for "Ineffable God"), which defined ex cathedra the dogma of the Immaculate Conception"

So most papal ex cathedra proclamations have overwhelming support from the Catholic bishops and laymen. This new Co-Redemptrix dogma does not have that type of support and has been ruled against by the last two Popes. So I don't see much chance of it making to an official recognition.
 
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This article, years ago when it first came out, was very eye-opening to some deeper implications. Given that there were/are millions of catholics worldwide who believe Mary should be elevated as becoming a fourth member of the Trinity, which included "mother" Teresa giving her whole-hearted endorsement for such, I can't help but to wonder that there was/is already that level of adoration/worship of Mary in the hearts of many, whether it ever becomes an official doctrine of the roman catholic religion or not.

What are your thoughts?

Jr
It's interesting to see people worship Mary. One reason I can't because of theology on the resurrection of the dead. In biblical times, the apostles did not believe in going to heaven after you die but are waiting for the resurrection when Jesus comes back. This would include king David, the prophets and Mary. Belief in the resurrection is also imbedded in the nicene creed.
 
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SwordmanJr

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...This new Co-Redemptrix dogma does not have that type of support and has been ruled against by the last two Popes. So I don't see much chance of it making to an official recognition.

Agreed. It was astounding, however, that more than 100 cardinals were on-board with that declaration being made ex-cathedral.

Jr
 
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Charlie24

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What's more amazing than some wanting to elevate Mary to this position, is that some thinking the Pope can make it so.

It is my thought that many denominations across the land will no longer consider Catholicism as Christian.

This is just going to far, it would call for rewriting scripture, and no one will accept this.
 
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Albion

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What's more amazing than some wanting to elevate Mary to this position, is that some thinking the Pope can make it so.

It is my thought that many denominations across the land will no longer consider Catholicism as Christian.

This is just going to far, it would call for rewriting scripture, and no one will accept this.
The Roman Catholic Church would accept this. The idea is popular already among the clergy and lay people of the church and it was the Pope who declared the two earlier "Marian" doctrines--the Assumption of Mary (bodily into heaven) and the Immaculate Conception--both of which are now "must believe" dogmas. I can't see why this one would be any different.
 
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Charlie24

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The Roman Catholic Church would accept this. The idea is popular already among the clergy and lay people of the church and it was the Pope who declared the two earlier "Marian" doctrines--the Assumption of Mary (bodily into heaven) and the Immaculate Conception--both of which are now "must believe" dogmas. I can't see why this one would be any different.

I'm not a Catholic or any root from it, but it seems to me they enough problems without serving this up on the table.
 
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