Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

SavedByGrace3

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Need some more heads and hearts here.
How does this work with the post tribulation theology?

“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’ Amen.” (Matthew 28:18-20)

Compared with what Jesus said:

John 6:
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Can we confidently say that "the end of the age" corresponds with "the last day"?
Seems the Lord is going to be with us up until the last day in the same manner He has been during the entire age. Implying it will be the same up until that last day of the age when there will be a change in the way He is going to be with us.

Do you know any scriptures that align with these?
Working on a new book "Fifty Reasons to Believe in the Post Trib Rapture".
 
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Joyous Song

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Now that we have our own thread, how do we convince the pre-tribbers that the rapture is really at the end?

Sometime you cannot reach them. Years ago we attempted to do just this with a neighbor that was harnessing or son over the pre-trib. We pulled out 2 Thess.1-6 asking Whose restraining the anti-Christ? He would even look at that passage, he read around it.

So its not easy but if indeed we are living in these days then the day itself will convince them.
 
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drmerejay

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Now that we have our own thread, how do we convince the pre-tribbers that the rapture is really at the end?

I don't think we need to convince them. Time will we are very close to the 7 year peace treaty. Many will agree. We need to prepare to be witnesses during this time for the great harvest.
 
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BobRyan

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Now that we have our own thread, how do we convince the pre-tribbers that the rapture is really at the end?

Let's start by pointing out 1260 years of the dark ages where more then 50 million Christians were killed. How in the world does that not qualify as at least "some" tribulation??

That alone should be sufficient to make post-trib the only option on the table.
 
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mnorian

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thread has gone thru a small clean-up of
non-post tribulation posts.


From the SOP of this thread:

Members who chose to participate in this safe house should believe in the post-tribulation rapture. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a post-trib point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.

  • This safe house thread is for those members who believe in the post-tribulation rapture.
  • The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."
  • If a topic turns into a debate then staff will split the debate off into a new thread.
  • Members who do not believe in the post-tribulation rapture may post in fellowship only.
  • No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Eschatology forum.
Hat off
 
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ewq1938

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Does "post-tribulation rapture" refer to Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

Yes.

Can you explain is meant by "post-tribulation rapture?"

Post-tribulation means something happens AFTER the tribulation has ended. Rapture means to gather together people and move them, usually upwards. Paul spoke of the rapture using the Greek word for rapture, "Harpazo" and described people being "caught up" to the clouds of the Earth.
 
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Joyous Song

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Jake Arsenal: Does post-tribulation rapture refer to Matt.24.31 and 1Thess.4.16?

Can you explain is meant by post tribulation rapture?

JS: I think Matt.24.31 is clearer staring from verse 29-31:


Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the heavens, and the power of heaven will be shaken; and then will appear the sign of the the Son of Man in heaven, and the the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and glory; and He will send out His angles with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”


As for the like verse though 1 Thess.4.16, this can work others however others assume this is the first trumpet. Yet 1 Cor.15.51-52 makes it clear what trumpet bring the rapture:


Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead shall be raised imperishable. and we shall be changed.”


That last trumpet comes after the witnesses are raised before those who killed them and were cerebrating their death, Rev.11.11-13, cf 15-19. Though I heard people explain away this FACT by ignoring it, its clear as crystal which leads to Armageddon and how so many Christians end in on the wrong side.

Remember Christ’s statement that people, the tribes of the earth will mourn on seeing Him in the clouds, Matt.24.30. The reason, is given in Is.13.6-10. These stand at the mountain of Meggedon, verse 4-5, They dismayed and fill of agony because they listened to the false prophet and the Anti-Christ only to find they were lied to.

Note the similarity to Matt,24.29, The same heavenly signs. Christ comes, verse 9 is in Isaiah this is what caused that agony, that anguish, because those gathering at that mountain of Israel happen to include misled Christians. So the question is, How did they get there and not know they were numbered among the goats? These are the reason I see:

  1. They believe in a pre-trib or mid trib-rapture absolutely, or that tribulation is far away, ignoring all other arguments that contradict theirs, so no matter how bad it gets they likely think, “it will pass, it always did before” or “the rapture hasn’t happened so it cannot be THAT time,”, Matt.13.18-19, Rev.1.18-29 also 3.1-6.

  2. There is several armies flooding toward Israel, before Armageddon. Each time this happens before someone cried” Armageddon” when it wasn't. When it finally was people were desensitized to that claim, Rev.9.13-18, cf Zech.14.12-14 and Jer.31.38-40.

  3. They think the anti-Christ will be clearly evil and yet he and the false prophet will appear a good Christians, at least on the surface. Yet everything I’ve learn of those two witnesses suggests, Y’hoshua (Paul to Israel of the return of Ephraim) and Zeru’babel (Patis Romanous, the last pope) will not be what people suspect they should be or even want. Yhoshua leads those keeping Hebrew traditions within the body of the Messiah. Zerubabel will show mercy to sinners but will be hard on hypocritical believers, Matt.24.23-24, and Rev.11.9.Rev.2.8-17.

  4. They will be called to take up their more literal cross and follow HIM but will prefer comfort instead, Matt.13.22. They will be forced in the end to take that cross up, Rev.14.13 cf Zech.11.10--12, or go into damnation, Rev..3.14-22.

  5. Fear will rule them, they fail to act in faith and follow along out of fear and end up on the wrong side serving the wrong master, Matt.10.26-33, 38; 13.20. These will have the same choices and fate as 4 also see Rev.6.12-17.
I drew many of these argument from the testimony of Germans’ excuses they gave the allies on why they failed to help the Jews. I also drew them from what I’ve seen here and elsewhere from Christians, recent events in American politics and of course the Sacred Scriptures I quoted in the above list.

Basically, believing an error like the pre-trib rapture, 2Thess.2.1-7, fearful of the coming tribulation, or who is or isn’t among the Witnesses (Zerubabel is a Pope that easy to see from the text of Zech.4) is not damning in and of itself This is true unless you are unwilling to put this aside when facts, either coming from the witnesses or the No-Prophet, or coming from the reality of the day, begin to manifest exposes the falsehoods.
 
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I was taught pre-trib and that the rapture occurs in Revelation chapter 4 when the Angel says to John, "Come up here." But then it was pointed out to me that I Corinthians says it will happen at the Last Trump. That is not until much later in Revelation. This was the turning point for my current belief.
 
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Joyous Song

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I was taught pre-trib and that the rapture occurs in Revelation chapter 4 when the Angel says to John, "Come up here." But then it was pointed out to me that I Corinthians says it will happen at the Last Trump. That is not until chapter 8 of Revelation. This was the turning point for my current belief.


Maybe this is why I see things differently. No one taught me about the rapture; I learned it through studying the Sacred Scriptures but admit my arguments as might be clear in all my references in my last post, are extensive and interconnected and just the tip of the iceberg. It would likely be a book to write.

I would be willing to explain each reference independently and its link to the Post trib rapture. It would however end up being a pretty long study even so.
 
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FredVB

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mark kennedy said:
Hey Fred,

Thought I would mention, I have proposed a general exposition of the book of Revelations (aka The Revelation). I focus on the seals, trumpets and vials of wrath as a general outline of the book. I actually hold to a mid to post tribulation rapture. I'd be interested in any insights from someone who shares that view.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Sorry to not be so immediately responsive. It sounds like an interesting engagement, and I do have insights. I do not have any certainty I can give others though about when the rapture of believers from this world would happen, though. I have come to understand that the anticipation of such rapture should not be an excuse, as I see it is being used by some, or more than that, believers, for not doing things in a responsible way in this world. And I can see believers being here still, when they who have still not done so, need to be told to immediately get out, when Mystery Babylon is about to fall, in a great collapse.
 
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FredVB

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Pilgrim Stranger said:
I was taught pre-trib and that the rapture occurs in Revelation chapter 4 when the Angel says to John, "Come up here." But then it was pointed out to me that I Corinthians says it will happen at the Last Trump. That is not until much later in Revelation. This was the turning point for my current belief.

My perspective is that the Book of Revelation is full of symbolism. As far as I know even trumpets mentioned in it are symbolic, so with this perspective I could not put much weight on reference to them for a position. It is not that there are not other ways to draw conclusions.

Joyous Song said:
Maybe this is why I see things differently. No one taught me about the rapture; I learned it through studying the Sacred Scriptures but admit my arguments as might be clear in all my references in my last post, are extensive and interconnected and just the tip of the iceberg. It would likely be a book to write.

I would be willing to explain each reference independently and its link to the Post trib rapture. It would however end up being a pretty long study even so.

I think there is more than enough reference to a rapture of believers into Heaven. I was led with that earlier and for much of the time after that to having a pre-tribulation rapture view. But I see the attention on a coming rapture of believers into Heaven is distracting to many people from things that should have priority of attention from believers. I see a need to move attention of some away from any of their focus on such a rapture just to see needed things that are disregarded.
 
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BobRyan

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I was taught pre-trib and that the rapture occurs in Revelation chapter 4 when the Angel says to John, "Come up here." But then it was pointed out to me that I Corinthians says it will happen at the Last Trump. That is not until much later in Revelation. This was the turning point for my current belief.

Amen - and Matt 24 makes post-trib rapture very very clear

Matt 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The part in red above - read like 1 Thess 4:13-18 - which explains how it is that the elect in Matt 24 are "in the sky"

1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 
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Josheb

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Okay....I will go first.........

The "Rapture" is after the Tribulation, not before!!!!!

What do you say about that, huh???.....:)
If that is a reference to the tribulation of Matthew 24 then the "Tribulation" has come and gone. It came in the generation of those to whom Jesus was speaking that evening when he answered their three-pronged question. He looked them in the face and told them they would be handed over to tribulation. He then told them after that tribulation the sign of the Son of Man would occur. What had they asked?

Matthew 24:3
"As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"

  • When will these things (the judgment of the Pharisees and the temple's destruction) happen?
  • What will be the sign of your coming?
  • What will be the sign of the end of the age?

That was the question being asked. That was the question being answered. In answering that question Jesus said, "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name," and that is exactly what happened.

When Jesus comes on the last day, as opposed to his having already come in the last days (plural) things will be much different. Those who sowed to the flesh will reap eternal destruction/corruption and those who sowed the Spirit in Christ will reap eternal life. The former get tossed into a fiery lake so egregious even death itself is destroyed. The latter will be raised incorruptible and immortal and receive their full inheritance as adopted sons and daughters of The Most High God.





Point of clarification: This is a post-trib view. It is not a Premil view. No provocation is intended. I therefore won't belabor the points made in my post because I understand that's not the domain of those safe house. However, the points made are valid and veracious.
 
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Thuycidides

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Now that we have our own thread, how do we convince the pre-tribbers that the rapture is really at the end?
The only way to convince anyone of anything is by plain Scripture. I have found most believers are not willing to give up pet theories, when they are cemented in them, especially when taught to them by 'respected' leaders. Not only must they be willing to change their minds, but also willing to change their opinion of their leaders.

In any case, I was once a firm believer in pre-trib rapture, as taught by my leaders. But now I don't believe that at all.

There are several problems:
1. We are to enter into the kingdom of God by much tribulation. And the last days tribulation prophesied by Daniel was specifically to purify the people of God.
-Why would we pray God to do so, and why would God do so, to be taken out of the way of that which God specifically intends for our purifying and perfecting and good?
-We flee sin, not tribulation for righteousness' sake, wherein we are blessed, but rather we endure it to the end.

2. We are not appointed to wrath. True. Not the wrath of God, but we are destined to wrath of man on earth.
-There are two kinds of tribulation in Scripture: The wrath of man persecuting the faithful, which purifies them that endure or defeats them that fall away. And the wrath of God judging the wicked, which destroys or redeems them that repent.
-God's wrath produces tribulation and aguish upon them that repent not to the end, and man's wrath produces tribulation and purification upon them that abide to the end.

3. The last great tribulation period will be as in the days of Noah, where the flood came and took them all away unawares.
-It was the very sudden flooding of the earth that destroyed them that repented not unto the end, just after Noah entered the ark, which would be when the saints enter the clouds.
-They were making merry and sending gifts and being married up to the end, while the ark was a preparing for years. There was no great 'prep' time to let them know the Lord's judgment was coming.

4. That the 'gentile church' is raptured, and then God turns one last time to the Jews only.
-There is no such thing as the 'gentile' church and body of Christ.
-Jesus was in fact the confirmation of the last days prophecy to come to His own, and they received Him not.
-therefore, we are in the last days where the prophecy is now being fulfilled on earth by the Spirit with both Jew and Greek.
-I do not see in Scripture the Lord Himself coming to His own first, and then to the gentiles, and then back again to the Jews only. That would be a reversal of the Gospel were God would have all men to be saved.
-Likewise, the angel in mid-heaven will be preaching the Gospel to all inhabitors of the earth at the last hour of tribulation on earth.
-The last great tribulation on earth will be in opposition to all believers, not just the Jews.
-Scripture makes it plain that those 'left behind' will all be ordained to wrath of God, especially those who fell away from Jesus to the wicked. No second chances. Especially since any repentance and faith will be by sight: the sight of the absences of so many people, whether Jew or Greek.
-And to say that will be the case with gentiles only, would mean the Jews would not be by sight, because the believing Jews would remain behind to minister to them? Not Scripture.
-The 1st resurrection is for all the dead in Christ and all that are alive and remain.

5. The saved and washed during the tribulation would have no part in the 1st Resurrection and so not blessed.
-Some have suggested a 'phased in' resurrection, where those resurrected are in part at different times, in order to include saints washed in the blood of the Lamb during the tribulation.
-There is no Scripture for that. Those who have 'part' in the 1st resurrection are all those who are 'part' of the body of Christ.
-Others have more mystically said that those washed in the blood during tribulation have missed the 1st resurrection and the 'Gospel age', and therefore are not so blessed in inherit everlasting life, but are merely immortal 'spirit beings' serving God in His temple.
-Obviously that is mysticism, not mystery, with no Scripture at all, and it would also mean that we can be washed in the blood of the Lamb, be saints of God having and keeping the faith of Jesus to the end, and yet not be born again into His body, nor confessed by Him before the angels.
-Likewise, there is no 'Gospel age'. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the everlasting Gospel preached for everlasting, and even if there were none to bear witness of His cross, He will be doing so forever by the very marks and prints of the cross in His body: As a Lamb that was slain in the midst of the throne.

6. The church must be raptured in order for the 1st beast, that man of sin, to 'appear'.
-That is plainly so; however, in the realms of false teaching to the extent of cultism, the beginning is never apparent and open from the start, but rather is subtle and deceiving. A little leaven in the beginning will in time leaven the whole lump, if not repented of and purged.
-This last great 'antichrist' will come riding in on a white horse to save everyone's day in Christ, but only after a period of deceptive time and rise to power, does he 'appear' truly as himself, and will be seen as riding in on a whited horse to conquer everyone's faith, not to help them that believe.
-That is how a false christ and apostle ascends before the saints, as angels of light, not as fire breathing dragons of persecution and destruction. At least not in the beginning.
-The elect will be taken out of the way after the period of deception and trying of faith, with some falling away first, which must occur before the resurrection.
-The first part of the last and greatest tribulation will be the rise and deception of the 1st beast with persecution upon the faithful in Christ, whether Jew or Greek, which will end with the 1st resurrection, followed immediately by the coming of the Lord and His judgment upon the wicked that are left behind, whether Jew or Greek.
-The dragon is finally cast out of the air, no longer prince and power thereof, and he will rage in wrath for a short period to gather his armies together at Armageddon.

7. Finally, the coming of the Lord's return is for the first purpose of receiving His people to Himself, and then judgment upon all inhabitors of the earth.
-Even as the first purpose of the Lord's flood was to rescue Noah from the wicked by the water, and then destroy them not in the ark.
-And so the Lord's return into the air will be during the last time of the tribulation, the very hour of judgment, with His church in the air amidst clouds so innumerable as to cover the entire sky, leaving only plagues of God's judgement below in darkness, with not even the sun to shine upon them clearly.
 
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Thuycidides

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Members who chose to participate in this safe house should believe in the post-tribulation rapture. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a post-trib point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.

  • This safe house thread is for those members who believe in the post-tribulation rapture.
  • The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."
  • If a topic turns into a debate then staff will split the debate off into a new thread.
  • Members who do not believe in the post-tribulation rapture may post in fellowship only.
  • No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Eschatology forum.
Agreed.
 
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Thuycidides

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Let's start by pointing out 1260 years of the dark ages where more then 50 million Christians were killed. How in the world does that not qualify as at least "some" tribulation??

That alone should be sufficient to make post-trib the only option on the table.

True. We are in the last days, and have been so since the Lord ascended, and thru much tribulation must we enter the kingdom of God.

And when a believer is in much tribulation, the most ever in their lives, what matter to them, if the rest of the world is not?

In either case, tribulation works for the saint to build up and purify, so we ought not be praying to be taken out of the way, but rather to be faithful in His grace that is sufficient in such times.

The greater the tribulation, the greater the sufficiency of grace upon us.
 
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BobRyan

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Okay....I will go first.........

The "Rapture" is after the Tribulation, not before!!!!!

What do you say about that, huh???.....:)

I say you are correct...

I would have said that in Maryland as well :)
 
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Thuycidides

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Need some more heads and hearts here.
How does this work with the post tribulation theology?

“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’ Amen.” (Matthew 28:18-20)

Compared with what Jesus said:

John 6:
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Can we confidently say that "the end of the age" corresponds with "the last day"?
Seems the Lord is going to be with us up until the last day in the same manner He has been during the entire age. Implying it will be the same up until that last day of the age when there will be a change in the way He is going to be with us.

Do you know any scriptures that align with these?
Working on a new book "Fifty Reasons to Believe in the Post Trib Rapture".

I don't think these do it for us.

While the last day certainly applies to the resurrection, the end of the age applies to ministry.

I do not believe in a 'Gospel age', because the Gospel of the cross is everlasting, and will be preached and ministered forever by the Lord Himself with the marks and prints of the cross on His resurrected eternal body: the slain Lamb in the midst of the throne.

The 1st resurrection is the last day of the church on earth, which in itself could be any time before or during the tribulation, but not after it.

Rev 16 may help though:
"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Not the great day of battle, but the great day of God: the last day. For the very next Scripture is the day He comes as a thief: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

I personally believe the last day with resurrection is in fact the last day of tribulation, finishing in the Lord's return with His saints to do battle and begin His reign on earth.

And at this day and time the Lord stands upon the Mount of Olives and cleaves it with the great earthquake on earth, as never before. And that great city Jerusalem, called Babylon, is divided at the same time into three parts. And who knows, maybe the saints are bombarding the dragon's host with the hailstones, which was exceeding great from the exceeding great innumerable host of Christ in the air.

I would even like to say that the darkness upon the seat of the beast is due to all the exceeding great clouds that the resurrected saints are with in the air, so much so that the sun is blotted out. Sort of like the boast of the great king Xerxes at Thermopylae.
 
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