Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. (Romans 13:1)

redleghunter · Feb 2, 2020

In other threads it is asserted by some that Romans 13:1-7 means unconditional obedience to government even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God’s Law.

Are there examples in Holy Scriptures of God’s chosen disobeying a wicked civil Government edict/law or religious authority in contravention of the Righteousness of God?

Yes there are examples.

Daniel 3: NASB

8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He doesnot, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

And here:

Acts 4: NASB

18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

miamited · Feb 2, 2020

Hi RLH,

I think it well to read what it actually says: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. As far as I know there are no people who are not subject to governing authorities. We are all subject to the governing authorities on the earth, which were established by God.

Every nation has its authority and its people are subject to those authorities. N. Korea, Russia, Brazil, Venezuela, Panama, Canada, et.al. They are all governing authorities and they were each established by God. Even all of our various languages were established by God.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

miamited · Feb 2, 2020

Hi again RLH,

Another situation where I think we play loose with God's commands is in observance of the Sabbath. Somehow christians have been beguiled by this idea that Sunday is now the Sabbath. In my small group just last week the teacher was decrying how he'd often had to work on Sunday, thereby breaking the Sabbath. I stopped him and asked why he thought that working on Sunday was breaking the Sabbath? He, of course, drew out the explanation that it was now Sunday that christians observed as the Sabbath. I told him, no. The Sabbath has never changed, but we humans generally won't honor it no matter what day it is.

Of course all the others in the small group rolled their eyes at me and snickered. I get that a lot. The Sabbath has always been the evening of the 6th day to the evening of the 7th day. What Christians do is worship God on Sunday, but the law, the 10 commandment law given unto Moses doesn't have a single word in it about worship. It says to keep the day Holy, that is separated unto God, and do no work. Neither you nor anyone in your household. I'm certainly thankful that God sent Jesus.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

yeshuaslavejeff · Feb 2, 2020

redleghunter said:
In other threads it is asserted by some that Romans 13:1-7 means unconditional obedience to government even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God’s Law.

quote at least one of them in context.
I saw some of those threads, and it did not appear that they demanded "even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God's Law" .....

Aussie Pete · Feb 2, 2020

miamited said:
Hi RLH,

I think it well to read what it actually says: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. As far as I know there are no people who are not subject to governing authorities. We are all subject to the governing authorities on the earth, which were established by God.

Every nation has its authority and its people are subject to those authorities. N. Korea, Russia, Brazil, Venezuela, Panama, Canada, et.al. They are all governing authorities and they were each established by God. Even all of our various languages were established by God.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

In limited circumstances, it is acceptable or even mandatory to disobey. In general, we should be model citizens.

Hishandmaiden · Feb 2, 2020

Our first obedience is to God. Sadly, most of us don't always put God first.

yeshuaslavejeff · Feb 2, 2020

Hishandmaiden said:
Our first obedience is to God. Sadly, most of us don't always put God first.

What do you think of the disciples in the Bible who always put God first, and later throughout history the other disciples who put God first, even unto death , re Foxes Book of Martyrs ?

Most people on earth do not even consider turning to God to seek Him, let alone obey Him, nor put Him first.

Don't stay with people who do not put God first: i.e. as written, seek out and stay with the faithful ones who do put God first, so then it is better said: "Sadly, most people do not put God first".... recognising God's view of all the society, and God knows who puts Him first .....

1213 · Feb 2, 2020

redleghunter said:
In other threads it is asserted by some that Romans 13:1-7 means unconditional obedience to government even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God’s Law.

Are there examples in Holy Scriptures of God’s chosen disobeying a wicked civil Government edict/law or religious authority in contravention of the Righteousness of God?...

I think you have good point. Jesus himself didn’t submit unconditionally, nor did his disciples who were persecuted jailed and killed. We don’t need to accept anything, but we should not use violence and we should not murder or steal.

redleghunter · Feb 2, 2020

miamited said:
Hi RLH,

I think it well to read what it actually says: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. As far as I know there are no people who are not subject to governing authorities. We are all subject to the governing authorities on the earth, which were established by God.

Every nation has its authority and its people are subject to those authorities. N. Korea, Russia, Brazil, Venezuela, Panama, Canada, et.al. They are all governing authorities and they were each established by God. Even all of our various languages were established by God.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Hi Ted, the OP has to do with Christians asserting the following:

“If it is legal then I should obey that law because God told us to be subject to governing authorities.”

Will you respond to how I address the OP?

topher694 · Feb 2, 2020

miamited said:
Of course all the others in the small group rolled their eyes at me and snickered. I get that a lot. The Sabbath has always been the evening of the 6th day to the evening of the 7th day. What Christians do is worship God on Sunday, but the law, the 10 commandment law given unto Moses doesn't have a single word in it about worship. It says to keep the day Holy, that is separated unto God, and do no work. Neither you nor anyone in your household. I'm certainly thankful that God sent Jesus.

The snickering is understandable since this is incorrect or not applicable today on many levels. We are still called to a sabbath and to make it holy, but not like this.

miamited · Feb 2, 2020

topher694 said:
The snickering is understandable since this is incorrect or not applicable today on many levels. We are still called to a sabbath and to make it holy, but not like this.

Hi topher,

No argument that we are still called to honor and obey the 10 commandments. The issue is that there is nowhere that God's word changes the Sabbath law.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

topher694 · Feb 2, 2020

miamited said:
Hi topher,

No argument that we are still called to honor and obey the 10 commandments. The issue is that there is nowhere that God's word changes the Sabbath law.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Jesus said He was the sabbath. Further, Hebrew years have multiple leap days and even months. Saying the sabbath falls on a particular day of our calendar is silly. Strictly speaking it's probably a Tuesday or something.

miamited · Feb 2, 2020

topher694 said:
Jesus said He was the sabbath. Further, Hebrew years have multiple leap days and even months. Saying the sabbath falls on a particular day of our calendar is silly. Strictly speaking it's probably a Tuesday or something.

Hi topher,

Right. I forgot John 21:27 Jesus looked at them and had compassion on them and revealed to them, saying, "I am the Sabbath, the way and the life. No one comes to the Father unless they enjoy Sabbath in me."

Actually, I think what Jesus said a couple of times, or at least recorded a couple of times for us, that he was Lord of the Sabbath.

Trust me please, or don't. God's word never changed the Sabbath and it was observed by Jesus, only a couple of centuries ago, on what today is Friday evening to Saturday evening. The Jews still to this day observe that calendar of the Sabbath just as they did 2,000 years ago and have continued. The Jews have, since pretty much the beginning of their nationhood, counted out 6 days and then observed the Sabbath. If nothing else, they have always been pretty good with knowing the written law. Following it, has always been the problem, just as it is with most of us.

Fortunately the Sabbath law, unlike the year of Jubilee law, is repeated often enough that keeping track of it hasn't been particularly difficult. When you've got several thousand/million people counting out 6 days to the next Sabbath, keeping it straight isn't particularly difficult.

Even the Scriptures account that Jesus was found missing from his tomb on the first day of the week. Pretty much all christians base this idea that God somehow moved the Sabbath to Sunday by referencing that we worship on the day the Lord arose. We celebrate the risen Christ. Which I wholeheartedly agree with as the reason that we worship on Sunday. However, that didn't change, according to the Scriptures, the Sabbath. Jesus did not rise on the Sabbath. He was in the tomb over the Sabbath which is why the women couldn't anoint his body until the first day of the week. The reason the Jews didn't want him left on the cross was that it was the Sabbath coming and such a thing would defile the Sabbath.

I contend that if one wants to honor the Sabbath, then forget about working or not working on Sunday. Stay home from Friday dusk to Saturday dusk.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

topher694 · Feb 2, 2020

miamited said:
Right. I forgot John 21:27 Jesus looked at them and had compassion on them and revealed to them, saying, "I am the Sabbath, the way and the life. No one comes to the Father unless they enjoy Sabbath in me."

That was uncalled for.

Matt 11:28-30 Jesus is referencing several Sabbath scriptures at once and says to come to Him for rest.

It is entirely possible, even common, to have a day off of work and still not have it be a day of rest. We need make taking a day off (sabbath) a priority AND seek Him for true rest. Which day of the week is of little consequence, as long as we do it and follow Him.

Trust me or don't, which day of the week doesn't matter.

redleghunter · Feb 2, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
quote at least one of them in context.
I saw some of those threads, and it did not appear that they demanded "even if governments command wickedness in opposition to God's Law" .....

Interesting as you were in those conversations:

yeshuaslavejeff said:
For the world , that is always true. (or at least usually thought true.).

It is still sinful, and opposed to Jesus, opposed to God's Word, and wrong according to God and His Word.

SkyWriting said:
Legality is decided by the entire population, and God's words says to submit to it.

SkyWriting said:
God's word says to submit to government laws. So that's that.

yeshuaslavejeff said:
No.
God's Word says NOT to obey men, when they direct someone to oppose God.
So only those people who oppose God go along with and support the sinfulness of the world governments.

SkyWriting said:
Except it doesn't say that anywhere. It says to ignore church leaders
and submit to local government.

topher694 · Feb 2, 2020

redleghunter said:
Interesting as you were in those conversations:

I wasn't in that thread, but those quotes are beyond ridiculous.

redleghunter · Feb 2, 2020

topher694 said:
I wasn't in that thread, but those quotes are beyond ridiculous.

Yes indeed Mr Topher. Alas the purpose of the thread.

redleghunter · Feb 2, 2020

There’s more.

SkyWriting said:
I was reading scripture and discovered it.
What Does the Bible Say About Authority?

Here it is direct from Jesus, while submitting to his death:

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

SPF said:
If I was the only person in thousands of years of Christian history to think morality worked in a way that seemed to contradict everything ever taught.... I might question whether or not I was interpreting Scripture correctly.

But hey, if you want to think you’re the one person in all of Christian history to discover the truth about morality then well... good luck with that.

yeshuaslavejeff · Feb 2, 2020

redleghunter said:
Interesting as you were in those conversations:

No connection ... No point ?

When someone posts false teachings, in an actual physical, local, assembly of Ekklesia, they are treated as Scripture says. Online, hardly any of the context or what have you 'counts' as to what is instructed in all Scripture.

topher694 · Feb 2, 2020

redleghunter said:
Yes indeed Mr Topher. Alas the purpose of the thread.

I don't know the entire context of the conversation in the other thread, but it seems to me that much of what you quoted could be yet another veiled, and sad attempt to skirt the forum rules and try to discredit the Apostleship and teachings of Paul.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. (Romans 13:1)

Thank You Jesus!

Ted

Ted

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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The Humble Servant

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Ted

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Ted

Go Turtle!

Thank You Jesus!

Go Turtle!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Go Turtle!

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