cvanwey
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- May 10, 2018
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I don't know what I was looking to know, exactly. I have learned a few things. What I was wanting was genuine engagement.
Noted
1) I have acknowledged that the idea of eternal damnation, especially for simply not believing, is problematic. It is not an idea I hold to and I have suggested a possible option. I don't think we can just waltz into the divine presence without being prepared. So, a live option for World 2, as far as I see it, is a remedial hell. So that, hell is not punishment, but a continued willingness on God to better prepare the individual for everlasting life. There is some evidence in Christian history by reputable Christians that this is a possibility (e.g. Origen and Gregory of Nyssa). I'm not saying that is the case. But, I do think it should be on the table, especially among Christians, for discussion. If there is one thing that should be clear, the doctrine of eternal damnation for no account is unintelligible. So, part of what I want is that if someone is going to engage me, they need to read what I have written and then respond based on that. I'm not trying to be harsh, but that's how discussions work.
Here's the problem, as see it. If Jesus did not want humans to speculate or postulate any viable concept of hell, then He either A) does not broach the topic at all, or, B) clarifies the concept. We humans can only read what is written, from the claimed Book(s) in which He was said to have ultimately authored.
Hence, you can then swiftly see why I will disagree with your view of hell
2) I have given a more robust account concerning how I understand the way that World 2 and grace works in post #340. Grace is not mere forgiveness, but the work of God through Jesus Christ where the path to everlasting life is made available, since everlasting life in the divine presence is God's goal. I also acknowledged, in what I consider to be proper humility, that the final judgements of God have not been revealed. It's a shame that more Christians seem unwilling to admit that. But, I have. Maybe I didn't describe how I see things clear enough, but I doubt the most charitable reading of what I wrote is that God simply condemns people for not having believed and yet having lived good lives. Surely, God's accounting takes all of that into consideration. If we are going to say that God is just, which is what I certainly believe, then a charitable reading of how I see World 2 based on what I have written is going to accept that. If there are questions about how that works, fine. But, don't come back with the initial concern that God damns the good and saves those who blantantly do evil, as if something hasn't been said on it.
I would too agree that the final judgement has not been revealed. But unlike you, I would conclude this from an entirely different reason. My reason is that we have two conflicting assertions / conclusions from the same book of claims. As I am currently discussing with @Pavel Mosko in another thread, we see the following verses:
'Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.'
'Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'
'And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'
'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life'
'Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved'
'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him'
'I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins'
'And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned'
'Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life'
Seems as though belief IS a requirement, where-as other areas of the Bible instead mention that one's intent is enough, away/apart from belief in the one true gateway, [Jesus] specifically. This equals conflict for me
Does that make sense?
Let [me] start by answering the OP, since I haven't.
Okay, so IF this were the only two options, which of the two would be 'best'?
I guess you are asking for subjective evaluations. My subjective evaluation of God, as told from the Bible, is that God's highest moral dictate is to worship Him. (i.e.) the first few Commandments, as well as many verses in the NT. So, if the only two options were to 1) some day cease to exist, or, 2) perpetually pledge allegiance to a deity for all eternity; seems as though the answer is self explanatory.
Does this make me 'mad' at God? No. I doubt this God is real. Hence, it would be silly to suggest this. But again, we are dealing with the hypotheticals presented. Again, according to the construct of this particular set of Books (i.e.) the Bible, this looks to be a 'reality'.
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