Which world is better: the world with no God or the world where the gospel is true?

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cvanwey

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I don't know what I was looking to know, exactly. I have learned a few things. What I was wanting was genuine engagement.

Noted

1) I have acknowledged that the idea of eternal damnation, especially for simply not believing, is problematic. It is not an idea I hold to and I have suggested a possible option. I don't think we can just waltz into the divine presence without being prepared. So, a live option for World 2, as far as I see it, is a remedial hell. So that, hell is not punishment, but a continued willingness on God to better prepare the individual for everlasting life. There is some evidence in Christian history by reputable Christians that this is a possibility (e.g. Origen and Gregory of Nyssa). I'm not saying that is the case. But, I do think it should be on the table, especially among Christians, for discussion. If there is one thing that should be clear, the doctrine of eternal damnation for no account is unintelligible. So, part of what I want is that if someone is going to engage me, they need to read what I have written and then respond based on that. I'm not trying to be harsh, but that's how discussions work.

Here's the problem, as see it. If Jesus did not want humans to speculate or postulate any viable concept of hell, then He either A) does not broach the topic at all, or, B) clarifies the concept. We humans can only read what is written, from the claimed Book(s) in which He was said to have ultimately authored.

Hence, you can then swiftly see why I will disagree with your view of hell :)


2) I have given a more robust account concerning how I understand the way that World 2 and grace works in post #340. Grace is not mere forgiveness, but the work of God through Jesus Christ where the path to everlasting life is made available, since everlasting life in the divine presence is God's goal. I also acknowledged, in what I consider to be proper humility, that the final judgements of God have not been revealed. It's a shame that more Christians seem unwilling to admit that. But, I have. Maybe I didn't describe how I see things clear enough, but I doubt the most charitable reading of what I wrote is that God simply condemns people for not having believed and yet having lived good lives. Surely, God's accounting takes all of that into consideration. If we are going to say that God is just, which is what I certainly believe, then a charitable reading of how I see World 2 based on what I have written is going to accept that. If there are questions about how that works, fine. But, don't come back with the initial concern that God damns the good and saves those who blantantly do evil, as if something hasn't been said on it.

I would too agree that the final judgement has not been revealed. But unlike you, I would conclude this from an entirely different reason. My reason is that we have two conflicting assertions / conclusions from the same book of claims. As I am currently discussing with @Pavel Mosko in another thread, we see the following verses:

'Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.'

'Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'

'And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'

'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life'

'Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved'

'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him'

'I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins'

'And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned'

'Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life'

Seems as though belief IS a requirement, where-as other areas of the Bible instead mention that one's intent is enough, away/apart from belief in the one true gateway, [Jesus] specifically. This equals conflict for me :)


Does that make sense?

Let [me] start by answering the OP, since I haven't.

Okay, so IF this were the only two options, which of the two would be 'best'?

I guess you are asking for subjective evaluations. My subjective evaluation of God, as told from the Bible, is that God's highest moral dictate is to worship Him. (i.e.) the first few Commandments, as well as many verses in the NT. So, if the only two options were to 1) some day cease to exist, or, 2) perpetually pledge allegiance to a deity for all eternity; seems as though the answer is self explanatory.


Does this make me 'mad' at God? No. I doubt this God is real. Hence, it would be silly to suggest this. But again, we are dealing with the hypotheticals presented. Again, according to the construct of this particular set of Books (i.e.) the Bible, this looks to be a 'reality'.


 
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public hermit

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Here's the problem, as see it. If Jesus did not want humans to speculate or postulate any viable concept of hell, then He either A) does not broach the topic at all, or, B) clarifies the concept. We humans can only read what is written, from the claimed Book(s) in which He was said to have ultimately authored.

Hence, you can then swiftly see why I will disagree with your view of hell :)

Yes, we've discussed this. My response is that Jesus is most interested in the life he came to give us, not giving all the details of the afterlife we might want to know. When Paul says that what has been promised exceeds human comprehension, I see no reason that should not work both ways.

As far as authorship, you know I am not an inerrantist. I don't hold that God authored the bible as a fundamentalist would. Inspired, yes, and inspired for the purpose of communicating the way to life given in Jesus Christ. In fairness to you, a good many of your complaints about Christianity aren't going to work unless you take a fundamentalist reading. I recognize that is the approach you need to take in order to sustain your position. I take the approach I do not only because I find the fundamentalist approach to the scriptures untenable, but also because I have not put my faith in the book, but in the resurrected Jesus Christ. In the opening post I make clear that World 2 does not depend on the scriptures as inerrant. My faith and that of many Christians does not depend on that approach to the scriptures.

I'll point you to posts #186 for my comments that scriptures are not as clear on the afterlife, especially damnation, as one might assume (or as many Christians seem to a assume).

In regards to belief and the passages you quoted, as you probably know the words translated "believe" (some variation of pisteuo) denotes more than mere belief, or assent to a proposition. It is a whole life orientation towards the way to life communicated in Christ. Faith is a way of life trusting in Christ, not just in his person and work, but trusting him enough to live as he taught. This whole life orientation of faith is a work of grace by which we are transformed into his image in preparation for everlasting life.

In reference to what I wrote in post#186, humanity is condemned to the limits of finitude and death. Sin/evil cannot coexist with life forever. If everlasting life is going to obtain, then humanity must be transformed in such a way commensurate with everlasting life. That is, they must be able to live without embracing/participating in sin and evil. Jesus said, this is why he came, so that we might have life and have it abundantly.

Seems as though belief IS a requirement, where-as other areas of the Bible instead mention that one's intent is enough, away/apart from belief in the one true gateway, [Jesus] specifically. This equals conflict for me :)

Accepting what I have said above that it is more than mere belief, I agree with you. There is conflict. And as a Christian, I see it as my responsibility to try and come to terms with it, to some extent. I don't think I need to have all the answers, but I do need to be honest that the conflict exists, and that I am.

As I have said, I believe that God is just. Whatever judgments God makes will be just. What is justice according to the scriptures? Life. Justice obtains when the life God created flourishes as God intended. God set out to create life to live in fellowship with the divine, forever. So, if justice is going to obtain, that goal of life must obtain. If you are willing to accept that as my settled position, then here are my thoughts (please refer to post #340 for reference):

Those who have faith, i.e. whose lives are oriented towards everlasting life in him, are already being prepared for everlasting life. What of the others? This is an open question. Yes, they are condemned in that they are not yet fit for everlasting life. No one who has embraced sin and evil is fit for everlasting life. The scriptures indicate that Christ died for all and that all are resurrected for the judgment. So, the fact that all are resurrected on account of him is important. Generally speaking, Christians are not Platonists who believe that we have eternal souls. All that is, is created through Christ. All that is, is reconciled to God in Christ.

All this to say, when we all stand before God after having been raised it will be on account of Christ that we are all raised. This revelation is most likely why we are told that everyone, without exception, will bow before him and confess that he is Lord. So, whether you believe in him or not is not what determines your entrance into the afterlife. Everyone will be raised on account of him, because he died for all. Again, the goal is life for all. God desires that all should be saved. So, what of the judgment?

What is woefully ignored about divine judgment is that the judgment is according to what we have done. Jesus says this, Paul says this, and it makes sense. And it is just of God to judge us according to what we have done, because regardless of arguments to the contrary, we all know what is right and wrong. There is a reason that some version of the golden rule (treat others as you want to be treated) is found in virtually every religion and philosophy of significance. What is good and right works in favor of life and what is not, doesn't. It's not hard to understand.

So, we are judged according to what we have done, how we have lived. Have we lived in a way that favors life or not? In other words, are we living in a trajectory that favors life? We don't have to be perfect, but we had better live in a way that is not destructive of life. Living in a way that promotes life is what it means to love God and neighbor. Worship is not praying and singing songs. Worship is living as God intended. The prayers and songs are to that end, but true worship is in spirit and truth. As John says, anyone who says they know God but hates their brother or sister is a liar.

Given the basis of judgment, God is not going to judge the three month old the same as the 100 year old. Those who have been given much, from much is expected. Those who have had long lives will be held to account accordingly. Those who claim Christ as their Lord and Savior will especially be held to account because they had the truth in this world by which to live. Those who have never heard of him or had a chance to trust him for life cannot be held to account for what they could not control. But, we all can be held to account for the way we have lived.

Notice, I have not made any declarations concerning the outcomes of God's judgments. And, I wouldn't dare, because I myself am under judgement. It is simply not my place. But, whatever judgments God will make will be just. This caricature that God is going to simply condemn without proper judgement is ludicrous. It is too simplistic a reading of the scriptures. I hold Christians responsible for not doing a better job, but this does not excuse atheists who are unwilling to give a charitable reading to a more robust account.

Now CV, I know you well enough to know that you will be tempted to discard everything I have just said because "the bible says." Besides the fact that kind of response goes against the opening post, I would not let a Christain get away with that and I won't let you, either. Please, engage me on account of what I hold to be true as a living and breathing Christian who has given these things significant consideration, not on account of the caricatures you want me to believe.

Let [me] start by answering the OP, since I haven't.

I thought you had. I remember you stating possible options in regard to morality that you think are possible given World 1.

Here's one thing I have noticed about you and some others who post on the Apologetics forum. You are very much concerned with the evidentiary basis of faith. That is certainly understandable. But, here is the reality regarding what we humans know. It is not obviously true or obviously false, based on the evidence, that God does or does not exist. If it were, then there would not be a question for the vast majority of people. You may want to argue that point, but I want to get at something else, which we theists don't hear enough about.

Theists are not theists just because they think the evidence points in the direction of God. Honestly, unlike many atheists, I don't think the epistemological concerns rate as high among theists. We are more than willing to admit that faith is a significant factor in holding to theism. What does rate high are more existential concerns, i.e. meaning, purpose, values and morality, justice, truth, goodness, beauty, etc.

What we don't hear enough about on these threads is the atheist's account for these existential concerns. I know you are not a theist because you do not belive that the evidence is sufficient. But, CV you are more than an atheist. You are a human with human concerns. I know of atheists who are very consistent in regards to these kinds of things. David Hume was being consistent when he reduced morality to mere sentiment, because he understood it could be no more than that if we are mere bundles of ideas (as he thought).

Now, unlike I did in a previous post, I would front-load such an account. I will honor you as you have me by waiting for you to give the account. But, please do. Please, give some account of the basis or grounding for your understanding of morality, meaning, purpose, whatever you choose.
 
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MrsFoundit

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World 2: In this world, not only does God exist, but the gospel us true. Jesus truly lived, died for our sins, and rose again. In this world there is an afterlife and we are held accountable for the way we have lived.

I did not actually see a single person who rejected this option bother to read it. Every objection to it was based on "evidence" bar one, which was based on apparently a misunderstanding of the OP.
It is clearly worded about which world is better, not more likely or better supported with evidence.

This work of grace by God sets the stage for the appropriate transformation of humans that is needed to prepare them for everlasting life in the presence of God.

I believe this process can do humans a lot of good in this life too. It is not all only beneficial after life.

I left the details of judgment open for debate, not only because there is disagreement even among Christians in regards to how judgment works, but there has not been as much revealed about how God works accountability at the judgment.

Far more fairly than people when they judge each other gets my vote.

Again, part of it is transforming individuals who instead of embracing the destructive nature of sin and evil, embrace love of God and others. If sin and evil work against life, love and goodness work in favor of life. The person who by grace is transformed more and more into the image of Christ, lives more and more according to love and good works is thereby more and more fit for everlasting life.

...and this life.

This still does not address those who reject Christ, those who for various reasons did not have the opportunity or were not able to trust Christ, those who died ever so young, etc. And, this does not address rectification of injustices that were not made right in this world. How does God reconcile all of these particular instances? The final outcome of God's judgments, in my humble opinion, has not been revealed.

I see no more justice in World 1. We have no Gospel, so life is more fair? No it is not.
 
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MrsFoundit

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Notice, I have not made any declarations concerning the outcomes of God's judgments. And, I wouldn't dare, because I myself am under judgement. It is simply not my place. But, whatever judgments God will make will be just. This caricature that God is going to simply condemn without proper judgement is ludicrous. It is too simplistic a reading of the scriptures. I hold Christians responsible for not doing a better job, but this does not excuse atheists who are unwilling to give a charitable reading to a more robust account.

:clap::amen::holy: Yes.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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If I am willing to acknowledge and at least attempt to address the weaknesses and problems in World 2, I am going to expect the same from those who think World 1 is better. When I raise issues concerning morality, justice, meaning, purpose, and personal identity and responsibility as it occurs World 1, simply responding that I haven't proven something or that it isn't a genuine concern is not going to work for me. Does that make sense?

I think those are certainly genuine concerns. I also think Yahweh is completely irrelevant to all of them, regardless of which world we're in right now.

Suppose I grant that we're in world 2. On its own, that does nothing whatsoever to inform my moral philosophy, my sense of meaning and purpose, the means of justice I have at my disposal, etc.

I am left to my own devices, exactly as I would be in world 1.
 
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public hermit

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I did not actually see a single person who rejected this option bother to read it. Every objection to it was based on "evidence" bar one, which was based on apparently a misunderstanding of the OP.
It is clearly worded about which world is better, not more likely or better supported with evidence.

I thought it was clear enough. But, I think there is this default approach that may be difficult to put aside for the sake of other considerations.

I believe this process can do humans a lot of good in this life too. It is not all only beneficial after life.

Yes, I wholly agree.
 
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public hermit

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I also think Yahweh

I am curious about your use of the divine name. You may not know that there are those who have great reverence for the tetragrammaton, so that they won't even speak it. And yet, you do so freely. I understand that from your perspective it makes no difference because you do not believe a referent for it exists. But, I wonder. Do you use it so freely as an attempt to offend? I don't assume so, but if so to what end?

You have stated that even if you existed in World 2 that the divine would not inform your moral philosophy. I do not assume that atheists are amoral or immoral. I have known enough to know better. Can you say more about this: "my moral philosophy, my sense of meaning and purpose, the means of justice I have at my disposal, etc."

I am particularly interested in what grounds your moral philosophy, is it extendable to others so that it is categorical (i.e. all should abide by the same)? To what extent is justice obtainable in World 1? Is it your position that what is just and right is more obtainable in 1 than in 2, and why or why not?
 
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MrsFoundit

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Suppose I grant that we're in world 2. On its own, that does nothing whatsoever to inform my moral philosophy, my sense of meaning and purpose, the means of justice I have at my disposal, etc.

I am left to my own devices, exactly as I would be in world 1.

Well morality is still identified and judged by someone or thing in World 1.

World 2 contains a judge of our judgements, who has personally suffered an enormous injustice, and whose judgements will be faultless.

I see people being a lot more careful in World 2 than 1.
 
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dlamberth

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World 2 contains a judge of our judgements, who has personally suffered an enormous injustice, and whose judgements will be faultless.

I see people being a lot more careful in World 2 than 1.
The thing is, historically for the past 2000 years there has been a lot of human upon human suffering and horror, all in enforcement efforts of World 2. From a moral stand point, it always comes down to a person own heart and understanding.
 
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cvanwey

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Yes, we've discussed this. My response is that Jesus is most interested in the life he came to give us, not giving all the details of the afterlife we might want to know. When Paul says that what has been promised exceeds human comprehension, I see no reason that should not work both ways.

Yea, but it's not like He's mentioning something mundane. He's mentioning where you are going to spend the rest of eternity, and hints that it's a 'bad' place to be. Either don't mention it at all, or at least clarify the details as best as He can, to our understanding. If it is instead, as you suggest, then many would not be preaching to millions of others about 'conscious eternal hell fire.'


As far as authorship, you know I am not an inerrantist. I don't hold that God authored the bible as a fundamentalist would. Inspired, yes, and inspired for the purpose of communicating the way to life given in Jesus Christ.

Noted :)

In fairness to you, a good many of your complaints about Christianity aren't going to work unless you take a fundamentalist reading. I recognize that is the approach you need to take in order to sustain your position. I take the approach I do not only because I find the fundamentalist approach to the scriptures untenable, but also because I have not put my faith in the book, but in the resurrected Jesus Christ. In the opening post I make clear that World 2 does not depend on the scriptures as inerrant. My faith and that of many Christians does not depend on that approach to the scriptures.

I try my best to look at the Bible, not from a 'fundi' perspective, but really try to translate [what] the author is saying. And sometimes, some verses look plain and simple - regardless of whether you are a staunch fundi, or 'liberal and open', [some] verses seem to have little room for 'error'.

I'll point you to posts #186 for my comments that scriptures are not as clear on the afterlife, especially damnation, as one might assume (or as many Christians seem to a assume).

I'll take a look, as I have not been following all posts in this thread. Pardon me if some of my response does not reflect this, moving forward :)

In regards to belief and the passages you quoted, as you probably know the words translated "believe" (some variation of pisteuo) denotes more than mere belief, or assent to a proposition. It is a whole life orientation towards the way to life communicated in Christ. Faith is a way of life trusting in Christ, not just in his person and work, but trusting him enough to live as he taught. This whole life orientation of faith is a work of grace by which we are transformed into his image in preparation for everlasting life.

Sure, but it starts with belief. Subtract the belief, and the rest seems irrelevant.


In reference to what I wrote in post#186, humanity is condemned to the limits of finitude and death. Sin/evil cannot coexist with life forever. If everlasting life is going to obtain, then humanity must be transformed in such a way commensurate with everlasting life. That is, they must be able to live without embracing/participating in sin and evil. Jesus said, this is why he came, so that we might have life and have it abundantly.

But again, one can make a pretty strong case that without belief in the correct deity, your works and deeds mean nothing. And when others cite alternative verses, the argument then turns/shifts instead to 'confusion.'

But regardless, if sin does not exist in heaven, and everyone sins, (both believers and non-believers) prior to natural death, then just allow everyone in. Hence, the separating fact seems to be belief; since all are 'sinners' anyways. All sin is 'bad' to God. Thus, the 'sin' is irrelevant.


And we can then only argue if we have free will in heaven, if there exists no sin there ;)

Accepting what I have said above that it is more than mere belief, I agree with you. There is conflict. And as a Christian, I see it as my responsibility to try and come to terms with it, to some extent. I don't think I need to have all the answers, but I do need to be honest that the conflict exists, and that I am.

Kool :)

As I have said, I believe that God is just. Whatever judgments God makes will be just. What is justice according to the scriptures? Life. Justice obtains when the life God created flourishes as God intended. God set out to create life to live in fellowship with the divine, forever. So, if justice is going to obtain, that goal of life must obtain. If you are willing to accept that as my settled position, then here are my thoughts (please refer to post #340 for reference):

Those who have faith, i.e. whose lives are oriented towards everlasting life in him, are already being prepared for everlasting life. What of the others? This is an open question. Yes, they are condemned in that they are not yet fit for everlasting life. No one who has embraced sin and evil is fit for everlasting life. The scriptures indicate that Christ died for all and that all are resurrected for the judgment. So, the fact that all are resurrected on account of him is important. Generally speaking, Christians are not Platonists who believe that we have eternal souls. All that is, is created through Christ. All that is, is reconciled to God in Christ.

All this to say, when we all stand before God after having been raised it will be on account of Christ that we are all raised. This revelation is most likely why we are told that everyone, without exception, will bow before him and confess that he is Lord. So, whether you believe in him or not is not what determines your entrance into the afterlife. Everyone will be raised on account of him, because he died for all. Again, the goal is life for all. God desires that all should be saved. So, what of the judgment?

What is woefully ignored about divine judgment is that the judgment is according to what we have done. Jesus says this, Paul says this, and it makes sense. And it is just of God to judge us according to what we have done, because regardless of arguments to the contrary, we all know what is right and wrong. There is a reason that some version of the golden rule (treat others as you want to be treated) is found in virtually every religion and philosophy of significance. What is good and right works in favor of life and what is not, doesn't. It's not hard to understand.

So, we are judged according to what we have done, how we have lived. Have we lived in a way that favors life or not? In other words, are we living in a trajectory that favors life? We don't have to be perfect, but we had better live in a way that is not destructive of life. Living in a way that promotes life is what it means to love God and neighbor. Worship is not praying and singing songs. Worship is living as God intended. The prayers and songs are to that end, but true worship is in spirit and truth. As John says, anyone who says they know God but hates their brother or sister is a liar.

Given the basis of judgment, God is not going to judge the three month old the same as the 100 year old. Those who have been given much, from much is expected. Those who have had long lives will be held to account accordingly. Those who claim Christ as their Lord and Savior will especially be held to account because they had the truth in this world by which to live. Those who have never heard of him or had a chance to trust him for life cannot be held to account for what they could not control. But, we all can be held to account for the way we have lived.

Notice, I have not made any declarations concerning the outcomes of God's judgments. And, I wouldn't dare, because I myself am under judgement. It is simply not my place. But, whatever judgments God will make will be just. This caricature that God is going to simply condemn without proper judgement is ludicrous. It is too simplistic a reading of the scriptures. I hold Christians responsible for not doing a better job, but this does not excuse atheists who are unwilling to give a charitable reading to a more robust account.

Now CV, I know you well enough to know that you will be tempted to discard everything I have just said because "the bible says." Besides the fact that kind of response goes against the opening post, I would not let a Christain get away with that and I won't let you, either. Please, engage me on account of what I hold to be true as a living and breathing Christian who has given these things significant consideration, not on account of the caricatures you want me to believe.

We can only assume what Jesus wants, based upon what He inspired in Scripture. If topics are left unaddressed, then your guess is as good as mine. But I do not find it illogical to assume 'fundamental' conclusions, if Jesus allows for specific axiomatic statements to prevail all across the Bible. Hence, if we can find many verses which state belief is a fundamental requirement, then maybe, just maybe, believe is a fundamental requirement... And if it indeed states this, in varying passages, regardless of how one reads it, one can then only question why other passages seem to suggest otherwise. And again, we either conclude that God requires belief.... OR, God 'inspires' confusion - which you seem to almost agree with above :)

What do you think?


Please, give some account of the basis or grounding for your understanding of morality, meaning, purpose, whatever you choose.

Um, okay... This is your thread, I'll humor you :)

Here it comes.... 'Morals' are not absolute. 'Purpose' is what we, as individuals, make of it. Okay, your turn :)
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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I am curious about your use of the divine name.

It's the name of the god we're talking about. If we were talking about some other god, I'd use that name.

Some theists are offended. Most aren't. If you happen to be one who is, I won't use it.

I am particularly interested in what grounds your moral philosophy

The standard of harm vs wellbeing, as experienced by living beings capable of suffering harm or flourishing in wellbeing.

is it extendable to others so that it is categorical (i.e. all should abide by the same)?

It's extendable in that harm and wellbeing are both objectively quantifiable. As to whether or not that standard 'should' be adopted, that is a value judgement, and values are necessarily subjective. That gets to the is/ought problem.

It is quantifiably, objectively harmful to drink a quart of motor oil. But that can't tell you if you ought not to do it, unless you share my values.

To the point, appealing to a 'god' does nothing at all to illuminate any of this. Values do not magically become 'objective' by virtue of deriving from a god, and the values I have would stay the same no matter the state of any god's existence.

In a world in which a god did not exist, I would value maximizing wellbeing and minimizing harm.

In a world in which a god did exist, and was in favor of maximizing wellbeing and minimizing harm, I would value maximizing wellbeing and minimizing harm.

In a world in which a god did exist, and was in favor of maximizing harm and minimizing wellbeing, I would value maximizing wellbeing and minimizing harm.

Nor does an appeal to any god resolve the is/ought problem. You cannot point to any 'is' statement of moral behavior, purportedly made by or otherwise derived from the Biblical god, and derive an 'ought' from it.

To what extent is justice obtainable in World 1?

Through our imperfect human means. Our justice systems, or if you like, vigilantism.

Immoral behavior also has its own punishments built in, requiring no external interference. Not always, but very often.

Is it your position that what is just and right is more obtainable in 1 than in 2, and why or why not?

A just punishment is one that is proportional to the crime. So it depends on what the punishment is in world 2, and what the punishment is actually for. This would require a very astute judge.

And if I'm to derive my understanding of the god of world 2 from his actions in the Bible - drowning almost an entire planet of babies, children, and animals along with the sinners, for example - I would say he is quite a crappy judge, indeed. I would not trust such a character to reliably and competently mete out justice.
 
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Hishandmaiden

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I prefer a world where a righteous God exists, even if it can be frightening at times.
That is because I hate sins and want there to be a God to judge sins.
It can be frightening because sometimes I renounce Jesus in times of crisis and wonder if I am going to hell for that!
Even if it can be frightening for me, I still prefer a righteous God to exist.
 
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public hermit

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m, okay... This is your thread, I'll humor you :)

Here it comes.... 'Morals' are not absolute. 'Purpose' is what we, as individuals, make of it. Okay, your turn

Dude, that is all you have to give, haha. Come on! :)

That seemed a bit perfunctory. Well, now I know how my ex felt when she would tell me all the little details of how her day went, and then when she asked me about mine I would say, "Fine." ^_^
 
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MrsFoundit

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The thing is, historically for the past 2000 years there has been a lot of human upon human suffering and horror, all in enforcement efforts of World 2. From a moral stand point, it always comes down to a person own heart and understanding.

You are correct, but your point applies to the world we are in, not World 2.

As I understand the OP, it asks which is best of two fantasy worlds, not the world we are in.

In World 1, no God exists.
In World 2, the Gospel is true.

In our actual world, if we apply it all people, either could be the reality we are in.

Your valid point is based on evidence. My own point (valid or not) was dependent on setting evidence issues aside.
 
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Dude, that is all you have to give, haha. Come on! :)

That seemed a bit perfunctory. Well, now I know how my ex felt when she would tell me all the little details of how her day went, and then when she asked me about mine I would say, "Fine." ^_^

Haha! I wasn't quite sure if you wanted me to start by simply giving you an assertion or two, for which we could discuss, or other...

You have mentioned a lot of stuff, for which we could debate about endlessly.

Condensing things down a bit, the gist I see, from your last post, is that 'God gives the gift of life.'?.?.?

Here's my dealio... In all honesty, I don't know if there exists some 'creating agent', or, if 'the universe is eternal' / 'other'..??. But as @Nihilist Virus has put it, for which I will paraphrase a lot! I see too many asserted contradictions to believe in this asserted deity.

And in regards to the 'criteria' for heaven, I'm going to also steal from @Eight Foot Manchild ... 'No one goes to heaven.' Meaning, once you cross that threshold from death to heaven, you no longer are a sinner. You are no longer you. Which means you are transformed anew. And if you are transformed anew, and everyone was a sinner, prior to death, then it makes no sense to reject some recipients into this new 'perfect' kingdom.

You state something along the lines of 'preparing first'. Well, God, according to the Bible you believe, sees ALL sin as bad. God deems all humans unworthy. Hence, the entire Jesus saga/story. In such a case, seems as though 'works' is rendered worthless, as they are 'all rags to God.' If God rejects some humans, and accepts others, there must be a 'criteria'.

I'll stop here for now...

This is your thread, and I want you to focus on whatever seems important for you. :) If you wish to speak about 'morals', 'purpose', 'meaning', etc, let me know? I do not want to monopolize your thread :)

The ball is in your proverbial court.
 
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public hermit

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It's the name of the god we're talking about. If we were talking about some other god, I'd use that name.

Some theists are offended. Most aren't. If you happen to be one who is, I won't use it.



The standard of harm vs wellbeing, as experienced by living beings capable of suffering harm or flourishing in wellbeing.



It's extendable in that harm and wellbeing are both objectively quantifiable. As to whether or not that standard 'should' be adopted, that is a value judgement, and values are necessarily subjective. That gets to the is/ought problem.

It is quantifiably, objectively harmful to drink a quart of motor oil. But that can't tell you if you ought not to do it, unless you share my values.

To the point, appealing to a 'god' does nothing at all to illuminate any of this. Values do not magically become 'objective' by virtue of deriving from a god, and the values I have would stay the same no matter the state of any god's existence.

In a world in which a god did not exist, I would value maximizing wellbeing and minimizing harm.

In a world in which a god did exist, and was in favor of maximizing wellbeing and minimizing harm, I would value maximizing wellbeing and minimizing harm.

In a world in which a god did exist, and was in favor of maximizing harm and minimizing wellbeing, I would value maximizing wellbeing and minimizing harm.

Nor does an appeal to any god resolve the is/ought problem. You cannot point to any 'is' statement of moral behavior, purportedly made by or otherwise derived from the Biblical god, and derive an 'ought' from it.



Through our imperfect human means. Our justice systems, or if you like, vigilantism.

Immoral behavior also has its own punishments built in, requiring no external interference. Not always, but very often.



A just punishment is one that is proportional to the crime. So it depends on what the punishment is in world 2, and what the punishment is actually for. This would require a very astute judge.

And if I'm to derive my understanding of the god of world 2 from his actions in the Bible - drowning almost an entire planet of babies, children, and animals along with the sinners, for example - I would say he is quite a crappy judge, indeed. I would not trust such a character to reliably and competently mete out justice.

I really appreciate your response. I've been running all day and probably won't respond tonight. But, when I get a chance I will.
 
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public hermit

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As to whether or not that standard 'should' be adopted, that is a value judgement, and values are necessarily subjective. That gets to the is/ought problem.

You have tried to gloss over what matters most, if anything matters at all. What does it mean to value? But first, what are you quantifying over when you quantify over harm vs. well being? If you are being consistent with your metaphysical commitments, aren't you simply marking the difference between a collection of matter with a contiguous boundary in time and space that stays intact vs. a collection of matter that doesn't? What is a human other than a collection of matter? Sure, we like to think we matter more than rocks, but according to your commitments, we don't. To argue otherwise would be to make a value judgement, and you don't want to do that, do you?

Maybe you also wanted to include the subjective experience of feeling harm vs. a sense of well-being. But, according to your commitments, these are simply the result of stimuli acting on a body that is sentient (unless you are also concerned about the harm and well-being of rocks). Why should sentience give a body more value? It can't. At least, it can't latch on to some value that transcends its own subjective feeling.

I get it that you don't want to die, and so you feel confident in extending that sentiment categorically. But, show me your quantifiable evidence (since that is your standard of knowing) that says the desire to not die has any value other than mere sentiment. You can find 1,000 people who all say they don't want to die. But, that does not show that life is of more objective value than death, or that existence is somehow better than non-existence, according to your commitments. All it does it show that there exists 1,000 sentient collections of matter that prefer to stay intact. What value is that preference? What standard of "good" can you appeal to that doesn't reduce to some collection of matter?

Your sense of justice and fairness, what is it anchored to? Is it rooted in the evolutionary drive of the species? Why should this species survive? Have you looked around you lately at what this species is doing? Wouldn't it be just as easy to argue that a good bit of what this particular species brings to this celestial ball is so horrific that the advantage of its existence is at least questionable? You put yourself off as a rational person who sticks with the evidence, but I'm not sure you've sufficiently considered the evidence if you're arguing for the well-being of this particular species? We usually try to eradicate viruses.

Is there some inherent good in the human species to which you can point? You and I are simply collections of matter. What matters about us is nothing more than the matter by which we are constituted. The moment you make an appeal to what is fair and what is just and what is good, you belie the truth you say you believe. Either you are being inconsistent, or there is a standard that transends our constituent properties and sentient experience.

Now, you may not believe what I believe. But, unlike you, I am being consistent. Whether I am mistaken or not, I believe there is a God who is Love and created you and I. I believe we have value, not only by virtue of being created, but by virtue of being created in the image of the One who is Good. I get that you don't believe any of that. I get that you question the goodness of God, if such a God exists. I don't. So, when I say I appeal to that Goodness I am being consistent with what I believe.

You, on the other hand, have not followed through with the logical outcome of your own faith. I don't blame you. Absurdity lies at the end. Nonetheless, you still want to think in terms of what is right, or benefical, or good, or just. You believe there is nothing more than the physical properties of which you are aware, and yet, you still want to believe that something matters besides physical matter. Unless you're some kind of Platonist, who believes there is a transcendent good to which one can appeal, then your sentiment is an epiphenomena (or some such ad hoc tomfoolery you naturalists like to imagine) and matters no more than the grief of a rock.

Now, I'm not asking you to give your life to Jesus. But, at least give your commitments the serious reflection they deserve. And why you're reflecting, ask yourself why it matters if you reflect or not. What kind of collection of matter cares to reflect?
 
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public hermit

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Condensing things down a bit, the gist I see, from your last post, is that 'God gives the gift of life.'?.?.?

Yeah, that's it. God creates for the purpose of everlasting life, or better, everlasting life that flourishes in the divine presence. Not just any kind of living is compatible with everlasting life. Sin and evil are by nature destructive, they work against life. That which abides in destruction cannot last forever. So, sin/evil are incompatible with everlasting life. Humans abide in destruction. As things stand right now, humans are not fit for everlasting life. This is what Christians refer to as the "sin nature."

In World 2, the work of Christ opens the way for life (transcends the barrier of death and finitude) and provides the transformation needed so that humans are prepared for everlasting life.

Your main concern seems to be how faith works in World 2. As I stated earlier, faith is not mere belief. Faith is a whole life orientation towards life. Trusting in Christ is more than simply trusting that his death and resurrection are true. Faith is about embracing his way of life. And his way of life is oriented towards life.

Being merciful, gentle, a peace maker, gracious, generous, these are the qualities that makes one fit for everlasting life. Hatred, resentment, selfishness, violence, these qualities are destructive and not conducive to everlasting life.

God is gracious and is willing to help us towards everlasting life if we repent and turn towards the way that leads to life. That is what faith does. It turns from the destructive ways of sin and evil and towards the way of life. So long as we are oriented in that direction, then we are on the right trajectory.

The scriptures are pretty clear that being oriented in the right direction (i.e. towards life) is what God takes into account at the judgment. We don't have to be perfect. But, we have to be oriented in the right direction. Faith is not about believing something is true, it's about trusting a way of life that in this world is hard to sustain, because so many aren't playing by the same set of rules, and because we have inclination to put ourselves above others. Nonetheless, faith in Christ and following Christ are not two separate things.

I know there is a lot of Christianity that wants to say, "So long as I believe no matter what I do I am heaven bound." That way of thinking has reduced faith to mere intellectual assent.
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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You have tried to gloss over what matters most, if anything matters at all. What does it mean to value? But first, what are you quantifying over when you quantify over harm vs. well being? If you are being consistent with your metaphysical commitments, aren't you simply marking the difference between a collection of matter with a contiguous boundary in time and space that stays intact vs. a collection of matter that doesn't? What is a human other than a collection of matter? Sure, we like to think we matter more than rocks, but according to your commitments, we don't. To argue otherwise would be to make a value judgement, and you don't want to do that, do you?

Maybe you also wanted to include the subjective experience of feeling harm vs. a sense of well-being. But, according to your commitments, these are simply the result of stimuli acting on a body that is sentient (unless you are also concerned about the harm and well-being of rocks). Why should sentience give a body more value? It can't. At least, it can't latch on to some value that transcends its own subjective feeling.

I get it that you don't want to die, and so you feel confident in extending that sentiment categorically. But, show me your quantifiable evidence (since that is your standard of knowing) that says the desire to not die has any value other than mere sentiment. You can find 1,000 people who all say they don't want to die. But, that does not show that life is of more objective value than death, or that existence is somehow better than non-existence, according to your commitments. All it does it show that there exists 1,000 sentient collections of matter that prefer to stay intact. What value is that preference? What standard of "good" can you appeal to that doesn't reduce to some collection of matter?

Your sense of justice and fairness, what is it anchored to? Is it rooted in the evolutionary drive of the species? Why should this species survive? Have you looked around you lately at what this species is doing? Wouldn't it be just as easy to argue that a good bit of what this particular species brings to this celestial ball is so horrific that the advantage of its existence is at least questionable? You put yourself off as a rational person who sticks with the evidence, but I'm not sure you've sufficiently considered the evidence if you're arguing for the well-being of this particular species? We usually try to eradicate viruses.

Is there some inherent good in the human species to which you can point? You and I are simply collections of matter. What matters about us is nothing more than the matter by which we are constituted. The moment you make an appeal to what is fair and what is just and what is good, you belie the truth you say you believe. Either you are being inconsistent, or there is a standard that transends our constituent properties and sentient experience.

Now, you may not believe what I believe. But, unlike you, I am being consistent. Whether I am mistaken or not, I believe there is a God who is Love and created you and I. I believe we have value, not only by virtue of being created, but by virtue of being created in the image of the One who is Good. I get that you don't believe any of that. I get that you question the goodness of God, if such a God exists. I don't. So, when I say I appeal to that Goodness I am being consistent with what I believe.

You, on the other hand, have not followed through with the logical outcome of your own faith. I don't blame you. Absurdity lies at the end. Nonetheless, you still want to think in terms of what is right, or benefical, or good, or just. You believe there is nothing more than the physical properties of which you are aware, and yet, you still want to believe that something matters besides physical matter. Unless you're some kind of Platonist, who believes there is a transcendent good to which one can appeal, then your sentiment is an epiphenomena (or some such ad hoc tomfoolery you naturalists like to imagine) and matters no more than the grief of a rock.

Now, I'm not asking you to give your life to Jesus. But, at least give your commitments the serious reflection they deserve. And why you're reflecting, ask yourself why it matters if you reflect or not. What kind of collection of matter cares to reflect?

I tried, but I can't parse any of this.

What, exactly, do you think it is that I believe about matter, and what, exactly, are the internal problems you think it causes for my moral philosophy and worldview?
 
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