AD 70 to AD 622 – prophecy unfolding?

Christian Gedge said:

This topic is a continuation of my AD 30 to AD 70 thread, and outlines a Historicist approach to the ‘beast empires’ and the ‘10 horns’ of Daniel 7.

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Christian Gedge said:

The second misconception comes from preterists who, in their zeal of the AD 70 event, interpret the ‘horns’ as Roman emperors. They choose them selectively to finish with Vespasian as the tenth emperor, so as to reinforce their theory of AD 70 being the second coming of Christ.

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Christian Gedge said:

A natural reading of Daniel 7 suggests that the fourth beast (Roman Empire) would be divided into ten kingdoms. That is what Historicists think, and guess what? That’s what the early Church fathers thought too. Quoting Jerome:

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Christian Gedge said:

It needs to be reconsidered by Part Prets and futurists alike. But I dont think my P.P. friends are reading this thread. Hey!

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Hebrew
Melek = king
Malku = kingdom

Greek
Basileus = King
Basileias = Kingdom


The LXX and hebrew consistently agree on the difference between kingdoms and kings in Daniel 8. Thus the horns are representative of kings.

Daniel 8:20-23 (ESV) As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings (melek) of Media and Persia. And the goat is the king (melek) of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king (melek). As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kings (melek) shall arise from his nation, but not with his power. And at the latter end of their kingdom (malku), when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king (melek) of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise

Daniel 8:20-23 (LXX) The ram which thou sawest that had the horns is the king (basileus) of the Medes and Persians. 8:21 The he-goat is the King (basileus) of the Greeks: and the great horn which was between his eyes, he is the first king (basileus). 8:22 And [as for] the one that was broken, in whose place there stood up four horns, four kings (basileis) shall arise out of his nation, but not in their [own] strength. 8:23 And at the latter time of their kingdom (basileias), when their sins are coming to the full, there shall arise a king (basileus) bold in countenance, and understanding riddles.


More consistency with the hebrew and LXX

Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise,

Daniel 7:24 (LXX) And his ten horns are ten kings (basileis) [that] shall arise


However, it's really interesting to note the break that the LXX has from the hebrew in regards to Daniel 7:17. Where the hebrew uses melek for "four kings", The LXX remains consistent and uses basileiai for "four kingdoms".


Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings (melek) who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom (malku) forever, forever and ever.’

Daneil 7:17-18 (LXX) These four beasts are four kingdoms (basileiai) [that] shall rise up on the earth: which shall be taken away; and the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom (basileian), and possess it for ever and ever.


I would argue it would be more consistent to maintain the 10 horns as kings and not kingdoms, which is agreement with the LXX.


As a historicist, when do you place the saints inheriting the kingdom, considering Daniel has it during the 10 horns of the 4th kingdom, and considering the gospels and epistles have it during the 1st century?

Hebrews 12:22 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

pasifika said:

Hello, coming from same nation, people etc opposite of "many waters" ....

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The sea refers to "gentile nations." All 4 beasts come from the sea, that's from gentile nations.

Andrewn said:

The sea refers to "gentile nations." All 4 beasts come from the sea, that's from gentile nations.

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scripture?

pasifika said:

scripture?

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Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed
from lack of knowledge.
Since you have rejected knowledge,
so I will reject you from serving me as a priest.
Since you have forgotten the Instruction of your God,
so also I will forget your children.

Andrewn said:

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed
from lack of knowledge.
Since you have rejected knowledge,
so I will reject you from serving me as a priest.
Since you have forgotten the Instruction of your God,
so also I will forget your children.

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Hello, there is no mention of sea as referring to gentiles...anyway that is a good verse for all of us who discuss bible prophecy I think it's our lack of knowledge that bring forth division in our views.

pasifika said:

scripture?

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Hello, there is no mention of sea as referring to gentiles...anyway that is a good verse for all of us who discuss bible prophecy I think it's our lack of knowledge that bring forth division in our views.

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Really?

Revelation 13:1 says, “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

In Revelation 13:1 John sees the beast “rise up out of the sea.” It would be natural and wise to enquire as to the meaning of this reference to “the sea” in this reading? Is the mention of the sea intended to be literally interpreted? I think not. There seems little doubt that this is a symbolic reference (allowing for its location in this symbolic prophecy); but a symbolic reference to what? On this query I think there is little need for us to speculate. The reason being, there are other similar passages in Scripture that may assist us in our enquiry. Scripture seems to liken the wicked people of the earth to the sea with all its turmoil and uncertainty.

When we look over at the book of Daniel we see a similar type of metaphorical language. Daniel sees a vision in Daniel 7:2 and saw “the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea.”

Now we know for sure that these “four great beasts” symbolically represent four great ungodly kingdoms in history that rose up out of the heathen nations to subjugate the people of God. This narrative should provide us with valuable assistance in unravelling Revelation 13:1. The similar correlation cannot be a coincidence.

What is the sea or waters symbolic of in Scripture?

Isaiah 17:12-13 explains: “Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off.”

Similarly in Isaiah 60:5 we learn: “the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.”

These two statements in Isaiah 60:5 are simply repeating the same truth, one enlarging upon the other.

The text is looking forward to the new covenant period when salvation would go out to all nations. In this text, the nations of the world are likened unto “the abundance of the sea” and is said that they “shall be converted unto thee.”

Isaiah 57:20 tells us that “the wicked are like the troubled sea.” Jude describes the “ungodly” as “raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame.”

James 1:6 says of the unregenerate: “he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.”

Jude verse 4 likens “ungodly men” to “the raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame.”

Revelation 17:1 & 15: “Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

In the light of these plain references, it seems reasonable to identify “the sea,” which the beast rises out of in this symbolic passage in Revelation 13:1, with the wicked from throughout the nations of the earth.

Isaiah 27:1 also interestingly predicts, “For, behold, LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”

The whole context of this reading revolves around the Lord coming to punish the wicked inhabitants of the earth. This event also sees the slaying of Satan – who is located “in the sea.” Contextually, and in keeping with other similar passages, this could be interpreted to be among the wicked.

There seems to be a picture developing!!! The wicked nations / peoples / kingdoms are where Satan holds his tight control. They are rough iniquitous waters.

Like Satan, the beast was placed under definite restraint at the cross and chained within the spiritual domain of the abyss. Notwithstanding, John saw him “ascend out of the bottomless pit” in Revelation 17:8.

The greatest support is found in Revelation itself. The sea or waters are actually identified as symbolic in Revelation 17:1 & 15. It confirms the figurative import of the same, saying, “Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

This is clear, concise and unambiguous. We are within our rights to consider this imagery throughout this highly symbolic book.

sovereigngrace said:

Really?

Revelation 13:1 says, “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

In Revelation 13:1 John sees the beast “rise up out of the sea.” It would be natural and wise to enquire as to the meaning of this reference to “the sea” in this reading? Is the mention of the sea intended to be literally interpreted? I think not. There seems little doubt that this is a symbolic reference (allowing for its location in this symbolic prophecy); but a symbolic reference to what? On this query I think there is little need for us to speculate. The reason being, there are other similar passages in Scripture that may assist us in our enquiry. Scripture seems to liken the wicked people of the earth to the sea with all its turmoil and uncertainty.

When we look over at the book of Daniel we see a similar type of metaphorical language. Daniel sees a vision in Daniel 7:2 and saw “the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea.”

Now we know for sure that these “four great beasts” symbolically represent four great ungodly kingdoms in history that rose up out of the heathen nations to subjugate the people of God. This narrative should provide us with valuable assistance in unravelling Revelation 13:1. The similar correlation cannot be a coincidence.

What is the sea or waters symbolic of in Scripture?

Isaiah 17:12-13 explains: “Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off.”

Similarly in Isaiah 60:5 we learn: “the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.”

These two statements in Isaiah 60:5 are simply repeating the same truth, one enlarging upon the other.

The text is looking forward to the new covenant period when salvation would go out to all nations. In this text, the nations of the world are likened unto “the abundance of the sea” and is said that they “shall be converted unto thee.”

Isaiah 57:20 tells us that “the wicked are like the troubled sea.” Jude describes the “ungodly” as “raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame.”

James 1:6 says of the unregenerate: “he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.”

Jude verse 4 likens “ungodly men” to “the raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame.”

Revelation 17:1 & 15: “Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

In the light of these plain references, it seems reasonable to identify “the sea,” which the beast rises out of in this symbolic passage in Revelation 13:1, with the wicked from throughout the nations of the earth.

Isaiah 27:1 also interestingly predicts, “For, behold, LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”

The whole context of this reading revolves around the Lord coming to punish the wicked inhabitants of the earth. This event also sees the slaying of Satan – who is located “in the sea.” Contextually, and in keeping with other similar passages, this could be interpreted to be among the wicked.

There seems to be a picture developing!!! The wicked nations / peoples / kingdoms are where Satan holds his tight control. They are rough iniquitous waters.

Like Satan, the beast was placed under definite restraint at the cross and chained within the spiritual domain of the abyss. Notwithstanding, John saw him “ascend out of the bottomless pit” in Revelation 17:8.

The greatest support is found in Revelation itself. The sea or waters are actually identified as symbolic in Revelation 17:1 & 15. It confirms the figurative import of the same, saying, “Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.”

This is clear, concise and unambiguous. We are within our rights to consider this imagery throughout this highly symbolic book.

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Hello, the "sea" in both Daniel and Revelation point to particular nation, people whom where 4 kingdoms (beasts ) arises...yes it is a gentile nation not nations...

Eg: The popular view is that the 4 beasts refers to kingdoms of 4 different nations ie, Babylon, Greece, Rome, dividing Roman Empire

My, view is that the 4 beasts or kingdoms comes from 1 nation...so Babylon was rule by kingdoms of this one nation...

Yes of course it is a gentile nation...

pasifika said:

Hello, the "sea" in both Daniel and Revelation point to particular nation, people whom where 4 kingdoms (beasts ) arises...yes it is a gentile nation not nations...

Eg: The popular view is that the 4 beasts refers to kingdoms of 4 different nations ie, Babylon, Greece, Rome, dividing Roman Empire

My, view is that the 4 beasts or kingdoms comes from 1 nation...so Babylon was rule by kingdoms of this one nation...

Yes of course it is a gentile nation...

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I refer you back to my last post.

Christian Gedge said:

Here is the background in brief. Daniel has a dream of four great beast empires. (Dan. 7:1-7) They arrived as predicted, and all major schools agree to this point!

1. Babylon
2. Medo-Persia
3. Greece
   
4. Rome

Ok, let’s get started from the opening post header. Rome was the ‘beast’ in AD 70. A short while later Rome reached its greatest extent (AD 117) Map coming up.

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Hi Gedge,

So right there is the error. Daniel 7 `beasts` are contemporary to each other.

1. The last beast treads down the others. (thus they have to be in the same time) (Dan. 7: 7)
2. The first 3 beastly powers/kingdoms are able to continue after the last one has been judged and dealt with. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)
3. All these kingdoms are in the time of the Lord setting His rulership through Israel at the end of the Gentiles final Global Government. (Dan. 7: 27)

sovereigngrace said:

I refer you back to my last post.

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• Sea(singular )= nation, people, tongue etc...Daniel 7, Revelation 13 etc
• Seas (plural)= nations, peoples, tongues etc...
• Many waters (plural)=nations, peoples etc...Revelation 17

pasifika said:

• Sea(singular )= nation, people, tongue etc...Daniel 7, Revelation 13 etc
• Seas (plural)= nations, peoples, tongues etc...
• Many waters (plural)=nations, peoples etc...Revelation 17

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Hi pasifika,

The `sea` is the Mediterranean sea, as it is called the `Great Sea.` They are 4 contemporary kingdoms/Federations that are easily recognisable today.

Marilyn C said:

Hi Gedge,

So right there is the error. Daniel 7 `beasts` are contemporary to each other.

1. The last beast treads down the others. (thus they have to be in the same time) (Dan. 7: 7)
2. The first 3 beastly powers/kingdoms are able to continue after the last one has been judged and dealt with. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)
3. All these kingdoms are in the time of the Lord setting His rulership through Israel at the end of the Gentiles final Global Government. (Dan. 7: 27)

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Hi Marilyn,

So right there is the error.

From Wikipedia:

"The traditional interpretation of the four kingdoms, shared among Jewish and Christian expositors for over two millennia, identifies the kingdoms as the empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. This view conforms to the text of Daniel, which considers the Medo-Persian Empire as one, as with the "law of the Medes and Persians".(6:8, 12, 15) These views have the support of the Jewish Talmud, medieval Jewish commentators, Christian Church Fathers, Jerome, and Calvin.[23]

Jerome specifically identified the four kingdoms of Daniel 2 in this way.[24] The "four monarchies" theory existed alongside the Six Ages and the Three Eras, as general historical structures, in the work of Augustine of Hippo, a contemporary of Jerome.[25] "

There is no historical support for the dispensational futurization of the kingdoms.

sovereigngrace said:

I refer you back to my last post.

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Okay, I will check if the sea(s) always refers to Gentiles nations, people etc through out the bible.
Appreciate the info

jgr said:

Hi Marilyn,

So right there is the error.

From Wikipedia:

"The traditional interpretation of the four kingdoms, shared among Jewish and Christian expositors for over two millennia, identifies the kingdoms as the empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. This view conforms to the text of Daniel, which considers the Medo-Persian Empire as one, as with the "law of the Medes and Persians".(6:8, 12, 15) These views have the support of the Jewish Talmud, medieval Jewish commentators, Christian Church Fathers, Jerome, and Calvin.[23]

Jerome specifically identified the four kingdoms of Daniel 2 in this way.[24] The "four monarchies" theory existed alongside the Six Ages and the Three Eras, as general historical structures, in the work of Augustine of Hippo, a contemporary of Jerome.[25] "

There is no historical support for the dispensational futurization of the kingdoms.

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Hi jgr,

You have not refuted my comments -

1. The last beast treads down the others. (thus they have to be in the same time) (Dan. 7: 7)
2. The first 3 beastly powers/kingdoms are able to continue after the last one has been judged and dealt with. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)
3. All these kingdoms are in the time of the Lord setting His rulership through Israel at the end of the Gentiles final Global Government. (Dan. 7: 27)

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Hi jgr,

You have not refuted my comments -

1. The last beast treads down the others. (thus they have to be in the same time) (Dan. 7: 7)
2. The first 3 beastly powers/kingdoms are able to continue after the last one has been judged and dealt with. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)
3. All these kingdoms are in the time of the Lord setting His rulership through Israel at the end of the Gentiles final Global Government. (Dan. 7: 27)

Marilyn.

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Hi Marilyn,

The historians have refuted your comments.

jgr said:

Hi Marilyn,

The historians have refuted your comments.

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I ask you to refute it bro.

Marilyn C said:

I ask you to refute it bro.

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I agree with the historians' refutations.

claninja said:

Hebrew
Melek = king
Malku = kingdom

Greek
Basileus = King
Basileias = Kingdom


The LXX and hebrew consistently agree on the difference between kingdoms and kings in Daniel 8. Thus the horns are representative of kings.

Daniel 8:20-23 (ESV) As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings (melek) of Media and Persia. And the goat is the king (melek) of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king (melek). As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kings (melek) shall arise from his nation, but not with his power. And at the latter end of their kingdom (malku), when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king (melek) of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise

Daniel 8:20-23 (LXX) The ram which thou sawest that had the horns is the king (basileus) of the Medes and Persians. 8:21 The he-goat is the King (basileus) of the Greeks: and the great horn which was between his eyes, he is the first king (basileus). 8:22 And [as for] the one that was broken, in whose place there stood up four horns, four kings (basileis) shall arise out of his nation, but not in their [own] strength. 8:23 And at the latter time of their kingdom (basileias), when their sins are coming to the full, there shall arise a king (basileus) bold in countenance, and understanding riddles.


More consistency with the hebrew and LXX

Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise,

Daniel 7:24 (LXX) And his ten horns are ten kings (basileis) [that] shall arise


However, it's really interesting to note the break that the LXX has from the hebrew in regards to Daniel 7:17. Where the hebrew uses melek for "four kings", The LXX remains consistent and uses basileiai for "four kingdoms".


Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings (melek) who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom (malku) forever, forever and ever.’

Daneil 7:17-18 (LXX) These four beasts are four kingdoms (basileiai) [that] shall rise up on the earth: which shall be taken away; and the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom (basileian), and possess it for ever and ever.


I would argue it would be more consistent to maintain the 10 horns as kings and not kingdoms, which is agreement with the LXX.


As a historicist, when do you place the saints inheriting the kingdom, considering Daniel has it during the 10 horns of the 4th kingdom, and considering the gospels and epistles have it during the 1st century?

Hebrews 12:22 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

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Christian Gedge said:

I accept that both words are used in the original text. However, it’s not necessary to force a very literalistic interpretation on them when Daniel and Revelation are so often using hyperbolic language. That’s a stunt futurists play, and the Preterist plays it too when it suits.

For example, Revelation speaking of Empires, says “There are also seven kings. (Basileus) Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come.” (Rev. 17:10)




Surely, this is another case where the same word (melek) means ‘Greece’ in the 1st instance, and ‘Alexander’ in the 2nd instant. That’s how I understand it anyway.

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Yes, melek means king, royal and malkuw means kingdom, kingly, realm, reign. But in ancient and modern culture the king and his kingdom are synonymous. You are not grasping that.

jgr said:

I agree with the historians' refutations.

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Fine, but how do you/they refute the specifics I mentioned.

1. The last beast treads down the others. (thus they have to be in the same time) (Dan. 7: 7)
2. The first 3 beastly powers/kingdoms are able to continue after the last one has been judged and dealt with. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)
3. All these kingdoms are in the time of the Lord setting His rulership through Israel at the end of the Gentiles final Global Government. (Dan. 7: 27)