Was Simon the sorcerer a Christian?

d taylor said:

Simon was a believer and received eternal life as for Simon being a christian, one who follows Christ. The Bible does not give that information.

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People who don't follow Christ do not have eternal life. (John 10:27-28)..."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life;

Sabertooth said:

He appears to have been.

"But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, 'This man is the great power of God.' And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.

But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done." Acts of the Apostles 8:9-13 NKJV

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Do you think someone could feign desire for following the Redeemer - including getting baptized - just so that they complete their magical "knowledge"?

Judas was one of them for all that time, and no one (except the Redeemer) actually realized he was going to betray the Redeemer. Simon did have eyes on the secrets of the "spirit," because sorcery is about manipulating nature.

HTacianas said:

Actually it's more indicative of the longstanding Christian teaching that only an apostle can chrismate a new believer, as was the case of the men and women of Samaria, and every other convert mentioned in the new testament.

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I see no stipulation in the bible that only an apostle can give the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.
And you are incorrect about "every other convert mentioned".
Cornelius, for example.
And myself.

HTacianas said:

Cornelius received the Holy Spirit at the word of Peter.

Act 10:44 - While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

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As it is written.
But there was no "laying on of hands".

Kaon said:

Do you think someone could feign desire for following the Redeemer - including getting baptized - just so that they complete their magical "knowledge"?

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Yes, but Luke would have acknowledged that, if so.

I believe that his conversion was as real as Ahab's repentance (for killing Naboth [1 Kings 21]).

"‘Thus says the Lord: 'Have you murdered and also taken possession?”’
And you shall speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord:
“In the place where dogs licked the blood of Naboth, dogs shall lick your blood, even yours...” ’ ” 1 Kings 21:19 NKJV

"So it was, when Ahab heard those words, that he tore his clothes and put sackcloth on his body, and fasted and lay in sackcloth, and went about mourning.

And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,
'See how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the calamity in his days.

In the days of his son I will bring the calamity on his house.'” 1 Kings 21:27-29 NKJV

Phil W said:

People who don't follow Christ do not have eternal life. (John 10:27-28)..."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life;

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The Gospel of John is the book of belief, that it is stated many times that Eternal Life is received by belief, faith trust in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life.

So these two verses would be the exception to faith and instead make following Christ the way a person receives Eternal Life. Which makes receiving Eternal Life a life long work. Which is not supported in the Bible and/or The Gospel of John where John 10:27,28 is found.

But if the verses before 27,28 are also read it can be seen that Jesus is speaking about unbelief and belief.
As John 10:25 states that Jesus speaks to a group of Jews who do not believe in Him and He states they are not His sheep. Why are they not His sheep because they do not believe.
So When Jesus speaks about His sheep in verse 27 they here His voice and follow Him, meaning that they believe in Jesus which is in complete contrast to the people who do not believe in verses 25,26.

So in the context, to follow Jesus, is to believe in Jesus for the free gift of His Eternal Life.

Sabertooth said:

Yes, but Luke would have acknowledged that, if so.

I believe that his conversion was as real as Ahab's repentance (for killing Naboth [1 Kings 21]).

"‘Thus says the Lord: 'Have you murdered and also taken possession?”’
And you shall speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord:
“In the place where dogs licked the blood of Naboth, dogs shall lick your blood, even yours...” ’ ” 1 Kings 21:19 NKJV

"So it was, when Ahab heard those words, that he tore his clothes and put sackcloth on his body, and fasted and lay in sackcloth, and went about mourning.

And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,
'See how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the calamity in his days.

In the days of his son I will bring the calamity on his house.'” 1 Kings 21:27-29 NKJV

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I would say that this is a bit different, as it showed noteworthy repentance. Even though the chapters are pages long, the time period is longer than "short". So, the "went into mourning" part - even the fasting and sackcloth - was a serious process of repentance. Nineveh did the same thing - leading to the escape of their demise because of their demonstrative repentance.

The Simonians were a divergent gnostic sect that followed Simon's idea of salvation - namely through him and his gnosis. That is why I asked i you thought it was possible for him to feign desire to follow the Redeemer - just to have manipulation of nature and spirit in his will. His gnosis (in his opinion) would be complete. There is not really a record of Simon repenting for his former sorcery in the way we see the patterns in the bible (sackcloth, ash, mourning, weeping, apologies, offerings, etc.)

Considering many of the early Christians were Gnostics (in the sense that they knew secrets of the natural and spiritual worlds given from the Redeemer), I can understand how he could stick around and act the part (gleaning everything he can) while having the intention of being a "high priest" on earth. People don't give up their power so easily, even in the name of a Savior - especially if many people already revere and/or fear them.

Simon may have been the seed that fell by road, or the rocky ground, i.e. eventually loses what he initially had? Or, the seed among the thorns i.e. loses any potency that he may have had?
I more inclined to believe the former, for as equating the gift of the Holy Spirit as a type of commodity, is almost tantamount to the unforgivable sin (Matthew 12:31-32), for argument's sake.

Matthew 13:18-22
13:18. "Hear then the parable of the sower. 19. "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20. "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21. yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22. "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

reformed Baptists are compelled to say he was or credo-baptism falls to pieces.

HTacianas said:

As always, please show your work.

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Yes, for a while. Tradition holds that he apostatized and went on to more sorcery. There is a rather large corpus of works about what he allegedly did after apostatizing. He is also alleged to be the source of the heresy of Gnosticism. The Acts of Peter (if I recall correctly, the latin version) contains a story wherein Simon summoned phantom dogs to attack Peter and Paul, but the apostles threw blessed bread at the dogs to make them disappear. Also, an incident wherein Simon enchanted a dog to debate Peter, but Peter won the debate and the dog returned to Simon and was beat to death by Simon.

Also, I seem to recall a later story about Simon flying on a broomstick, and the bishop of Rome tying him to a stake... and burning him to death (some time after the time of the apostles, so... very apocryphal and I think based off another story involving Pope Leo?)

Judging from Church Tradition and The Holy Church Father writings of Cyril of Jerusalem I would say that no he wasn't and that he died as an Unrepentant Sorcerer :


• The Death of Simon Magus
From : Simon Magus - Wikipedia


• Cyril of Jerusalem (346 A.D.)
In the sixth of his Catechetical Lectures prefaces his history of the Manichaeans by a brief account of earlier heresies:
"Simon Magus, he says, had given out that he was going to be translated to heaven, And Was Actually Careening Through The Air In A Chariot Drawn By Demons when Peter and Paul knelt down and prayed, and their prayers brought him to earth a mangled corpse."

.

HTacianas said:

As always, please show your work.

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There is only implicit indication of his salvation through his belief and baptism from v13 and then being paired with the greater community with plural pronouns. He missed the point and was rebuked, the rebuke is direct saying he and has money should parish but he later showed remorse in v24. No more information is given. If you want to know the answers talk to the Orthodox, they have the back and continued stories of many biblical characters that no one else knows and if it's deemed Orthodox it's true.

HTacianas said:

I have no reason to doubt any of that but the text does not say whether Simon was chrismated or not.

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This seems to imply you are saying he coudn't be a Christian if he wasn't chrismated. Is that the implication?

What people thought in that time to be sorcery, nowadays we call science, you can say that he was some kind of illusionist that probably used to take people's money for a certain favor, remember he also offered money for the divine power.

You can say that even the 3 wise man, the mags, that came to Christ were "sorcerers", they were at least able to read the stars, which implies knowledge of astronomy/astrology, maybe alchemy and other esoteric knowledge.

Matthew 2:1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,"

The actual greek word used for "wise men" is "mag'-os", which basically means magician, sorcerer, they were in fact what we call today "scientists".

Now, I can't say for sure what happened with Simon, but he was also a "mag'-os", because the word used there for sorcery was "mag-yoo'-o".

So his sin so to say was not that he was a sorcerer, he was using this knowledge to trick people and probably take their money.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

Judging from Church Tradition and The Holy Church Father writings of Cyril of Jerusalem I would say that no he wasn't and that he died as an Unrepentant Sorcerer :


• The Death of Simon Magus
From : Simon Magus - Wikipedia


• Cyril of Jerusalem (346 A.D.)
In the sixth of his Catechetical Lectures prefaces his history of the Manichaeans by a brief account of earlier heresies:
"Simon Magus, he says, had given out that he was going to be translated to heaven, And Was Actually Careening Through The Air In A Chariot Drawn By Demons when Peter and Paul knelt down and prayed, and their prayers brought him to earth a mangled corpse."

.

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Wow!

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

Judging from Church Tradition and The Holy Church Father writings of Cyril of Jerusalem I would say that no he wasn't and that he died as an Unrepentant Sorcerer :


• The Death of Simon Magus
From : Simon Magus - Wikipedia

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I read that in Foxe's Book of Martyrs. I didn't realize that it was the same Simon.

he didn't repent. he didn't show remorse for what he did. he merely begged that he would be spared from the consequences of what he did.

d taylor said:

The Gospel of John is the book of belief, that it is stated many times that Eternal Life is received by belief, faith trust in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life.

So these two verses would be the exception to faith and instead make following Christ the way a person receives Eternal Life. Which makes receiving Eternal Life a life long work. Which is not supported in the Bible and/or The Gospel of John where John 10:27,28 is found.

But if the verses before 27,28 are also read it can be seen that Jesus is speaking about unbelief and belief.
As John 10:25 states that Jesus speaks to a group of Jews who do not believe in Him and He states they are not His sheep. Why are they not His sheep because they do not believe.
So When Jesus speaks about His sheep in verse 27 they here His voice and follow Him, meaning that they believe in Jesus which is in complete contrast to the people who do not believe in verses 25,26.

So in the context, to follow Jesus, is to believe in Jesus for the free gift of His Eternal Life.

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I agree totally.
Sinners don't follow Jesus...don't believe Jesus.