Perfect Rectitude

I'm heading to work. G'day.

"JESUS CHRIST, THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND UNTO THE AGES." Heb. xiii. 8.

THE SAME throughout "the ages ;" words little heeded I fear; and yet which virtually contain the essence of the Gospel - the sum and substance of our hope. For what is it these words teach? not the superficial view that Christ is now a Savior, and will in future be merely a Judge to condemn; but that, what He was on earth that He is now, and that He will be, through "the ages" (judging ever, but only a Judge that He may by it be a Savior). They bid us look to a series of ages yet to come, and there see Jesus Christ still working to save; doubtless by penalty, by fiery discipline, in the case of hardened sinners; but still the same Jesus, i.e., Savior, and destined to continue His work of salvation till the last wanderer shall have been found.

So far from producing every possible passage that teaches the larger hope, I might have easily cited other texts that teach, or imply, the same. Take but two clauses of the Lord's prayer: "Our Father," these two words really involve the whole question - they form a tie, never to be broken, between man and God. "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven," But how is His will done in heaven? It is universally done. Shall it not then be universally done on earth too? Does Christ put into our mouths a petition which He does not design to fulfill, in even larger measure than we can hope? I might have also quoted "God is Love." To this point all His attributes converge. Love is that character, which united they form (love infinite and unchanging). Can this Love consign to endless agony its own children? Can infinite Love ever cease to love ? - let the Apostle reply, "Love never fails," is inextinguishable.

I would sum up by repeating the three propositions already stated, p. 224. (I.) Christ's Purpose of salvation was deliberately formed to include the whole of our race, and no less. (II.) He received for this end ALL POWER, i.e., power over all wills, all evil, all obstacles, whatsoever and wheresoever. (III) The Bible claims; the Prophets claim; the Evangelists claim; the Apostles claim; Christ claims absolute success in this task. - Is. xlv. 22-3; lv. 11; liii 11; S. Jno. xii. 32; xvii. 4; 1 Cor. xv. 22, 27-8; Rom. v. 15-21; xi. 29-32; 2 Tim. i. 10, &c.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter eight --- bold emphasis mine

Here are the scriptures from the end of that last post from Thomas Allin.
Some did not translate correctly. Should we blame the Damnationists? - lol

Is. 14:22-3; John 12:32; 17:4; 1 Cor. 15:22, 27-28; Rom. 5:15-21; 11:29-32; 2 Tim. 1:10

Isaiah 14:22-23
“I will rise up against them,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
“I will wipe out Babylon’s name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the Lord.
23 “I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,”
declares the Lord Almighty.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 17:4
I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Romans 5:15-21
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 11:29-32
for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

2 Timothy 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

"In the above brief notes I have not attempted an exhaustive comment. It has been my aim to point out the plain natural meaning of the passages cited, in their bearing on the future destiny of man, and to present this meaning in the most simple and straightforward way. Specially have I urged the imperative necessity of truthfulness, of assuming that what the sacred writers say, that they mean, in the ordinary acceptation of their words - that in saying, e.g., "I make all things new," Christ really meant all things and not some things; that in saying, "God is the Savior of all men," the Apostle meant that God really does save all men.

A few words of earnest caution must be added here. I trust it has been made plain in these pages, that in teaching universal salvation, I have not for a moment made light of sin, or advocated the salvation of sinners while they continue such. I earnestly assert the certain punishment of sin (awful it may well be, in its duration and its nature for the hardened offender), but in all cases directed by love and justice to the final extirpation of evil. Nay, I have opposed the popular creed on this very ground, that it in fact teaches men to make light of sin, and that in two ways: FIRST: because it sets forth a scheme of retribution so unjust as to make men secretly believe its penalties will never be inflicted; and SECOND: because it in fact asserts that God either will not, or cannot, overcome and destroy evil and sin, but will bear with them for ever and ever."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter eight --- bold emphasis mine

Saint Steven said:

23 “I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,”
declares the Lord Almighty.

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Very nice. But this verse reminds me of a classic case of translation differences.
Isaiah 34:11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and raven will dwell in it. The LORD will stretch out over Edom a measuring line of chaos and a plumb line of destruction.

Which is it: the desert owl and the screech owl, the pelican and the porcupine, the pelican and hedgehog, the cormorant and bittern, eagle owls and herons? The list goes on.

Shrewd Manager said:

Very nice. But this verse reminds me of a classic case of translation differences.
Isaiah 34:11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it, and the great owl and raven will dwell in it. The LORD will stretch out over Edom a measuring line of chaos and a plumb line of destruction.

Which is it: the desert owl and the screech owl, the pelican and the porcupine, the pelican and hedgehog, the cormorant and bittern, eagle owls and herons? The list goes on.

Click to expand...

That's interesting.
I didn't realize there was such a long list of variants.
Quite a difference in translation between "desert owl and the screech owl" and "pelican and the porcupine" - lol
It must have been a nightmare to translate.

Saint Steven said:

That's interesting.
I didn't realize there was such a long list of variants.
Quite a difference in translation between "desert owl and the screech owl" and "pelican and the porcupine" - lol
It must have been a nightmare to translate.

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I'd imagine that would be one the KJV translators disputed day and night, and ultimately woke up King James to break the deadlock. And then came away muttering 'Cormorant and bittern, stupid king'.

Saint Steven said:

That's interesting.
I didn't realize there was such a long list of variants.
Quite a difference in translation between "desert owl and the screech owl" and "pelican and the porcupine" - lol
It must have been a nightmare to translate.

Click to expand...

How about this one:
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat; the calf and young lion and fatling will be together, and a little child will lead them.

Pretty consistent, but the New Heart English bucks the trend:
The cow and the bear will graze. Their young ones will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the ox.

@Shrewd Manager Have you seen this thread?
The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Saint Steven said:

@Shrewd Manager Have you seen this thread?
The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Click to expand...

Just earned my second strike from HQ, so why not?

I repeat that not one word has been written in these pages tending to represent God as a merely good-natured Being, Who regards as a light matter the violation of His holy law. Such shallow theology, God forbid that I should teach. Infinite Love is one thing; Infinite Good-nature a totally unlike thing. Love is never feeble, it is (while most tender) most inexorable. In the light of Calvary it is that we are bound to see the guilt of sin. But let us beware, lest, as we stand in thought by the Cross, we virtually dishonor the Atonement by limiting its power to save - by teaching men that Christ is after all vanquished; lest, while in words professing to honor Christ, we, in fact, make Him a liar, for He has never said, "if I be lifted up, I will draw some men," or even "most men," but "I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME."

---------- NEXT UP ----------

CHAPTER IX

WHAT THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHES (continued)

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter eight --- bold emphasis mine

CHAPTER IX

WHAT THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHES (continued)

"The word 'hell' the sacred writers never use in the sense which is generally given to it." - Dr. ERNEST PETAVEL. - The Struggle for eternal Life.

WE are often met with the objection, "You look only at one side of the Bible". I am determined that, in these pages, no room shall be given for the objection. Most true then it is, that there runs through Holy Scripture a current seeming (to an English reader) to teach the final destruction of the impenitent, and in some few passages their endless punishment. Most fully do I admit all this. I say, seeming to teach, advisedly. For the Bible was not written, as vast numbers appear to think, in English, by some Englishman in the 19th century, for his fellow Englishmen. It comes to us from very distant ages; in very many parts; the work of very many minds, but one and all writing from an oriental standpoint, saturated with oriental habits of thought, and in oriental phrase and style. Therefore all depends on the sense in which the terms in question are used. Let us go to the Bible itself to decide.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

...while undoubtedly the penalties threatened against sinners are terrible, still they are not endless. I believe that not one passage can be found anywhere in the Bible that so teaches, when fairly translated and understood. I must ask you, before examining these passages, carefully to bear in mind the following considerations:

(I.) When the horrors of endless sin and pain are so stoutly defended on the (supposed) authority of the Bible, it is well to remember, that slavery was unanimously defended for more than fifteen hundred years on exactly similar grounds; so was the infliction of most cruel tortures; so was religious persecution with its indescribable horrors; so was the existence of witches, and the duty of burning them alive. Nay, every theologian in Europe was for centuries persuaded of the truth of actual sexual intercourse between evil spirits and men and women. "Holy men," you say, "everywhere defend endless pain and evil on the authority of Scripture." Holy men, I reply, have with absolute unanimity defended, on the authority of Scripture, tenets and practices so abominable that one shudders in attempting to recall them.

(II.) A fact of the deepest significance is this: that although certain phrases existed, by which the idea of unendingness might have been conveyed, yet none of these is applied by our Lord amid His Apostles to the future punishment of the impenitent. Those interested are invited carefully to weigh this very striking fact.

(III.) Thus aiidios or ateleutetos are never used of future punishment in the New Testament. Nor is it anywhere said to be aneu telous "without end," nor do we read that it shall go on pantote, or eis to dienekes " for ever."

(IV.) Is it, I ask, conceivable that a sentence so awful as to be absolutely beyond all human thought, should be pronounced against myriads upon myriads of hapless creatures, in language ambiguous, and admittedly capable of a very different meaning, and habitually so used in the New Testament, and in the Greek version of the Old Testament, from which Our Lord and the Apostles quote?

(V.) It is certainly a strong confirmation of the view which asserts that no unlimited penalty is taught in the New Testament to find so great a body of primitive opinion (and that specially of the Greek speaking Fathers), teaching Universalism ON THE AUTHORITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. - See pp. 84, 148, 170. All such teaching obviously contains an implied assertion that the texts, usually relied on, do not teach endless penalty.

(VI.) Again, while the texts quoted in favor of the salvation of all men use language clear and explicit, and are a fair rendering of the original in all cases, it is not so in the case of the passages usually alleged to prove endless torment. In those cases where they seem to the English reader so to teach, they are either mistranslated or misinterpreted, or both. Hence we see how inaccurate is the assumption all but universally made, that these terms that seem to teach endless pain and evil are in the Bible. They are merely in a certain human and fallible translation of the Bible, a totally different thing.

(VI.) It is also to be noted that not a few of the passages usually quoted in support of the traditional creed do not, even if the accuracy of the translation be admitted, contain any assertion of endless pain, though they may seem to teach final destruction (to an ordinary reader.)

(VII.) Finally, in addition to all the above, a great difficulty remains in the way of the advocates of the traditional creed. They DARE NOT CARRY OUT THEIR OWN PRINCIPLES. Their principle of interpreting the Bible would compel them to believe what they do not believe, and to teach what no reasonable person could presume to teach. (a.) First, it would compel them to believe in the endless torment of the vast majority, at least of all adults (see pp. 4-5). (b.) Next it would compel them to believe that this torment goes on for ever and ever IN THE SIGHT OF THE LAMB AND THE HOLY ANGELS (for their satisfaction ?) - Rev. xiv. 10 - and indeed probably in the sight of all the Blessed. - Is. lxvi. 24, and S. .Luc. xvi. 23. But these two things they disbelieve. Nor do they believe the statement that God creates evil. - Is. xlv. Nor have they any ground, so far as I know, for their disbelief, except that these statements, taken literally, are unworthy of God, i.e., are immoral. Thus, in fact, they stand self-condemned. Nor do they really believe that Israel is to fall and rise no more. - Amos, v. 2; nor do, or can they, take literally the many threats of the same kind which Scripture contains.- See paragraph after note on S. Matt. iii. 12, in this chapter.

(VIII.) As instances of wholly incorrect rendering, take the words translated " hell," " damnation," "everlasting," "eternal," "for ever and ever." "Hell" is, in the New Testament, the rendering of three widely differing Greek words, viz., "Gehenna," "Hades," and "Tartarus," such is the accuracy of our translation! "Gehenna" occurs eleven times in the New Testament as used by our Lord, and once by S. JAMES. In the original Greek it is taken almost unchanged from the Hebrew ( Ge-hinnom, i.e., valley of Hinnom), an example which our translators ought to have followed, and rendered Gehenna, as it is, by Gehenna. By retaining the term hell with its inevitable associations, they in fact are prejudging the question, and are assuming the part not of translators but of commentators. This valley lay outside Jerusalem: once a pleasant vale, and later a scene of Moloch worship, it had sunk into a common cesspit at last. Into it were flung offal, the carcasses of animals, and it would seem, of criminals, and in it were kept fires ever burning (for purification be it remembered), while the worms were for ever preying on the decaying matter. The so-called undying worm and flame, of which so much has been made (a) were - at least in their literal and primary use - temporal and finite, (b) preyed only on the dead body (c) and were for purification; three particulars essential to the due understanding of the passages on which the dogma of endless torments has been so unfairly based. Hades is a. term, denoting the state or place of spirits, good and bad alike, after death. Our Revisers have, by a tardy justice,. struck "hell," as its translation, out of their version. It occurs in the Gospels and Epistles five times, twice in the Acts, and four times in the Revelations. It denotes that intermediate state or place which succeeds death; a state which, in our recoil from Romansh error, we have almost ceased. to recognize at all. Tartarus occurs once only (in the verbal form) in the New Testament, in 2 Peter ii. 4. It also is a classical term, used there most often, although not always, for the place of future punishment of the wicked. Here S. PETER applies it not to human beings, but to the lost angels; and in their case it denotes no final place of torment, but a prison in which they are kept awaiting their final judgment; hence, to render it by the term "hell" is simply preposterous. "Damnation," "damned," - both of these terms represent merely two Greek words (and their derivatives), krino and katakrino, i.e., to judge and to condemn. Our Revisers have felt how unwarrantable the former translation was, for which there is indeed this excuse, that probably, when the authorized version was made, the meaning of the word "damn" was far milder than it has since become (as was certainly the case with the term "hell."). To import into these words the idea of endless torment is to err against all fairness, for they simply mean to "judge," and at most, to "condemn."

*In one passage, 2 Peter ii. 3, the word "damnation" represents a different Greek word, "apoleia," and is rightly rendered by our Revisers as "destruction" in that place.

Most significant is it that in the original of the New Testament, the horrors of unending agony, which these terms conjure up for so many, vanish when we come to know that by "damnation" is simply meant "judgment," or at most "condemnation," as our Revisers now fully admit in their version; and by "hell" is only meant, either the place of disembodied souls, Hades, (as our Revisers now render it) or the Jewish Gehenna (see Revised Version), a place of temporary punishment in its literal sense, where the worms fed continually, it is true, and the fire for ever burned; but in both cases purifying, and causing no pain (for the bodies were those of the dead); and where both "undying " worm, and "unquenchable" fire, have long since, in their literal sense, passed away. True it is that Gehenna was by the Jews used, symbolically, of the place of future punishment- a fact to be fully admitted. But the evidence adduced by FARRAR (Mercy and Judgment, p. 180-215), by COX, Salv. Mundi, p. 70-5, and by an Article in the XIX. Century, August, 1890, (see, too, PFAFF, quoted p. 8o,) seems to make it clear that, normally, at least, Gehenna was not believed to involve endless punishment. It was certainly a place from which deliverance was possible, and probably one from which deliverance was the rule. Jewish opinion was by no means fixed, but fluctuated much as to the details and the duration of future punishment. Some Rabbis seem to have held (as did certain of the Fathers) the final annihilation of the wicked.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Let us next consider the true meaning of the words aion and aionios. These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators "everlasting,"" for ever and ever :" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective aionios means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and never " everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

"Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with MAURICE) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase "eternal life" (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual Thus, in S. John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God's commandment is life eternal. - S. Jon. xii. 50. The popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective aionios means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and never " everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God. To know Him is life eternal, - ib. xvii. 3, and Christ is the eternal life. - 1 S. Jno. i. 2; v. 20."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus "eternal" punishment is one thing, and "everlasting" punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for "everlasting " the word "eternal" in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word . Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for the "eternal" in strictness has no beginning.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

" 'The word by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless." - Canon FARRAR "The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages" -Rev. J. S. BLUNT - Dict. of Theology. "'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop RUST, "that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by olam (the Hebrew word corresponding to aion), and aion mean any remarkable period and duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity." "The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity, it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural - how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does ?" - C. KINGSLEY. So the secular games, celebrated every century were called "eternal" by the Greeks. - See HUET, Orig. ii. p. 162. "

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited - nay, a very limited duration - to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be "for ever," to be "everlasting" (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being "for ever with the Lord " - these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) - in common use among the Jews in Our Lord's time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point - these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

Thus the AARONIC priesthood is said to be "everlasting," Num. xxv. 13. The land of Canaan is given as an "everlasting "possession. and "forever," Gen. xvii. 8, and xiii. 15. In Deut. xxiii. 3, "for ever" is distinctly made an equivalent to "even to the tenth generation." In Lam. v. 19, "for ever and ever" is the equivalent of from "generation to generation." The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen "for ever, " Lev. xxv. 46. In Num. xviii. 19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant "for ever." CALEB obtains his inheritance "for ever" Josh. xiv. 9. And DAVID'S seed is to endure "for ever," his throne "for ever, " his house "for ever ;" nay, the Passover is to endure "for ever ;" and in Isaiah xxxii. 14, the forts and towers shall be "dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us." So in Jude vii., Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.- Ez. xvi. 55.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine

Christ's kingdom is to last "for ever," yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.- 1 Cor. xv. 24. Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

*Thus JOSEPEUS calls "aeonian," the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

Further; if this translation of aionios as "eternal," in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity. In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the "eternities." We can comprehend what "eternity" is, but what are the "eternities?" You cannot have more than one eternity.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine