Gog & Magog

keras said:

This is error, the Jewish State of Israel took 50 years to be birthed.
Which 'day' was it 'born, 14th May 1948 - when it was declared, or the 11the May 1949 when it was ratified by the UN?

You obviously have not read Isaiah 66:7-14 properly, as that prophecy simply cannot apply to the current nation in only a small part of the holy land.

To just quote Isaiah 66:7-9, is devious, as verses 8-14 are an integral part of that future prophecy.
That new nation will be Beulah, as Isaiah 62:1-5 tells us. Comprised of all the faithful people of God. Romans 9:24-26

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keras, you are in denial. The United States has it's embassy in Jerusalem.

Andrewn said:

But even if 1/6 of G&M army are not killed, how could this mean Ezekiel's war in not the same as Rev 20:7-10?

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Assuming Revelation 20:7-10 is meaning in the end of this age, and assuming it's referring to Ezekiel 38 and 39, and assuming 1/6 of Gog and his multitude are not killed, wouldn't that contradict the following? and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:9). If all of them don't actually get devoured, what happens to the ones that don't then?


So from my pov, assuming 1/6 of Gog and his multitude escape death, it would make more sense that Revelation 20:7-10 is meaning after the 2nd coming rather than before and at the 2nd coming. But if understanding it to mean 1/6 of Gog survives is not actually a valid interpretation, in that case, my points would all be moot. Or would they? Look below.


Since I brought up this part----and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:9)---obviously there would be no survivors. Who could be devoured by fire from God out of heaven, and then live to tell about it? The reason I bring this up again, let's assume Revelation 20 doesn't chronologically follow Revelation 19, but that Revelation 20:7-10 is parallel to the following in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


In Revelation 20:9 it indicates the following---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. In Revelation 19:20 it indicates the following---And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet---These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The latter clearly says, not only were the two taken, the two are also cast alive into the LOF. But how could they be taken, which indicates they are still alive, that further proved by this part---these both were cast alive, when, assuming this is parallel to Revelation 20:7-10, they should have been devoured by the fire from God out of heaven instead, thus not still alive to tell about it?

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them----And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet---These both were cast alive

How can these possibly be referring to the same events?

Andrewn said:

But even if 1/6 of G&M army are not killed, how could this mean Ezekiel's war in not the same as Rev 20:7-10?

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Following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39, there is the cleansing of the land and burial of Gog's army. And 7 years later, Jesus returning to planet earth.

Differently, in Revelation 20, Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit, and following Satan's last action to stir up the nations, fire will come down from heaven and destroy those invaders, followed by heaven and earth fleeing away, and the Great White Throne judgement.

Douggg said:

And why isn't this rationale valid to you, to show that Gog/Magog and Armageddon is not the same event?

pre Gog/Magog - Israel dwelling safely, at rest.
pre Armageddon - Israel in great tribulation, persecuted.

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Don't you place the following events recorded in Ezekiel 39:9-15, during the last 7 years, where a portion of those 7 years would be the great tribulation?

Can you show via any passages in the NT, which you feel involve the last 7 years of human history, where anything remotely like Ezekiel 39:9-15 is taking place during these final 7 years?

Douggg said:

keras, you are in denial. The United States has it's embassy in Jerusalem.

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Doesn't Ezekiel 38:11 make it clear to you that the people G/M attacks are NOT the people who are in the holy Land now?
You and most people of the world just cannot see or comprehend the tremendous change soon to come onto all the world, esp the Middle East region.

DavidPT said:

Don't you place the following events recorded in Ezekiel 39:9-15, during the last 7 years, where a portion of those 7 years would be the great tribulation?

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The Gog/Magog event takes place right before the the 7 years begin.

The last 1335 days of the 7 years are the great tribulation.

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years. Ezekiel 39:9-15, which is the burial of Gog's army, will take place for 7 months, following Gog/Magog.

Keep in mind that the exact number of days of the 7 years is not 2520 days, except for the understanding of the end times events, and to put them in order.

There will be at least one, maybe two, leap months that will take place over the course of the 7 years... but since we don't know exactly on a calendar when Gog/Magog takes place, nor the day the confirming of the covenant takes place, we cannot factor in the leap months.

The 7 months of Ezekiel 39:9-15 are the first 7 months of the 7 years. The last 1335 days of the 7 years will be the great tribulation.

DavidPT said:

Can you show via any passages in the NT, which you feel involve the last 7 years of human history, where anything remotely like Ezekiel 39:9-15 is taking place during these final 7 years?

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I don't use the term "human history". But if you want to say man's quasi independent rule over the nations, before the Kingdom of God becomes the ruling kingdom over the nations here on earth - then I am on board.

The answer to your question, though, is no for the 7 months, but yes for the 7 years.

In Revelation 12, the 7 years are the 1260 days first half, (the war in the second heaven + the remaining time, times, half time) the second half. The 7 heads have their crowns, indicating king 7, the little horn person will have come to power.

There is some teachings by the RAMBAM that the messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. In Daniel 8:23, the little horn person "stands up" an idiom for prepares to go to war. In Daniel 8:9, the little horn heads south and east, from the territory of one of the break up kingdoms of Alexander, with a strong army.

Putting those things together, it appears as though prior to Gog/Magog, the little horn leader of the EU will stage the EU defense force (which they are in the process of building) in Greece as a deterrent.

It does not say whether or not, he engages Gog/Magog or not.

However, my view is that the Jews will view his intent as to standing up to fight to defend Israel. And when he enters the middle east, following Gog/Magog, to keep peace in the region and stability in the region, that will be enough for the Jews to embrace him as the messiah. The Jews, many of them expect the messiah to arrive following Gog/Magog, which they interpret Zechariah 14 as the same event, to begin the messianic age of peace and safety.

The person will be anointed the King of Israel, by the false prophet, then he will make the big speech from the temple mount, as Moses required of all future leaders of Israel, on a 7 year cycle, that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever. Deuteronomy 31:9-13

That's what begins the 7 years.

keras said:

Doesn't Ezekiel 38:11 make it clear to you that the people G/M attacks are NOT the people who are in the holy Land now?

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No, it doesn't.

Andrewn said:

Do you believe the war of G&M described in Eze 38 & 39 is different from the war of G&M described in Rev 20?

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The attack on Israel in Ezekiel 38/39 takes place right before the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

At the end of the 7 years, in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon event.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself has returned to earth, and is recapping why the Jews went into the nations, for the past two thousand years, but will be back to good standing with him, before entering the millennium.

And the 1000 year millennium reign of Jesus begins.

At the end of the 1000 years, Satan will be released from the bottomless pit for a short time to deceive the nations one last time, and have them to try and destroy Israel again. Included in those nations will be the same nations that participated in the Ezekiel 38/39 Gog/Magog event, a 1007 years earlier.

So no, Ezekiel 38/39 is not the event of Revelation 20. The nations are the same, but it is not the same event.

Andrewn said:

Your literalism leads you to a belief in 3 different wars. It's difficult enough to talk with Premils who believe in 2 wars .

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The Bible prophets describe five attacks by armies against peoples and entities, that await fulfilment in these end times. They are all described differently and all occur at different times, but the common elements are; they all take place in the holy Land and they are all won by the Lord, except 3, where He destroys them 3 ½ years later.

In their correct sequence:

1/ The Islamic Confederation attack against the State of Israel. Psalms 83:1-18, Micah 4:11-12

2/ The Gog/Magog attack against the new nation of Beulah. Ezekiel 37-38, Joel 2:20

3/ The conquest of Beulah, by the Anti-Christ. Revelation 13:5-7, Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25

4/ The battle of Armageddon by an army from all the nations, at the Return of Jesus. Revelation 19:19, Daniel 8:25

5/ The final rebellion against God at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:7-9, Daniel 2:34-35


For what reason do they attack?

1a Because of their ancient enmity against Jacobs descendant’s. Ezekiel 25:1-17

2a In order for God to display His power and to make Himself known to His people and the nations. Before Jesus’ visible Return. Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:7

3a The Anti-Christ will break the 7 year treaty with Beulah. Daniel 9:27, Rev 13:7

4a It is Satan’s attempt to prevent the Return of Jesus. Revelation 16:14

5a Satan’s final deception of mankind. Revelation 20:3 & 7-9


What the Lord uses to achieve victory and the results of these attacks:

1b The Middle East is virtually depopulated, by fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis, caused by a massive CME. Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 30:25-28, Zephaniah 2:4-15, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 12:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18

2b The entire Gog/Magog army is wiped out, by earthquakes and fire. Ezekiel 38:18-22, Ezekiel 39:3-5, Joel 2:20

3b Beulah will be conquered and the Lord’s people tested. Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31-35, Revelation 11:2

4b The Anti-Christs army is destroyed by the Sword of the Word and he is chained up. Revelation 20:19-21, Daniel 11:25

5b The armies are burned up and Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:9-10


What happens to the dead?

1c They are burned to ashes by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1&3, Isaiah 33:12

2c They are buried in Wadi Mujib. Ezekiel 39:11

3c Their souls are kept in heaven awaiting Jesus’ Return. Daniel 11:35, Revelation 20:4

4c Their bodies are food for the birds and animals. Revelation 19:21

5c They are totally consumed by fire from heaven. Revelation 20:9

keras said:

What happens to the dead?

1c They are burned to ashes by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26

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Maybe it's just me, but Isaiah 30:26 sounds somewhat similar to Zechariah 14:6-7.


Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.


Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zechariah 14:7 says this---but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

What does evening time typically consist of? The moon for one.

Isaiah 30:26 says this---Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun


Now let's look at these together like such---Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun---it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light

If the moon shall be as the light of the sun, that would for sure help explain why at evening time it shall be light.

Assuming these are referring to the same events, nothing in Zechariah 14:6-7 leads me to believe anyone is being burned to ashes by fire from the sun.

Andrewn said:

Your literalism leads you to a belief in 3 different wars. It's difficult enough to talk with Premils who believe in 2 wars .

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Andrewn, it is not that complicated.

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon, then the millennium, then the final rebellion lead by Satan, then the Great White Throne Judgment.

HARK! said:

So are we to believe that Spiritual Israel, the people that YHWH will call back to his Kingdom, are being called Spiritual Sodom?

I don't think so.

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You are accusing the wrong people.

Revelation 11:8 is not talking about Israel, nor Jerusalem of today.

It is talking about what Jerusalem will be like under the reign and occupation of the beast and his followers, at the time the two witnesses will be killed.

The beast and his followers will treat the Jews in Jerusalem, like pharaoh did in Egypt. And the beast and his followers will show the same contempt of God and his messengers, the two witnesses, as Sodom did to the two angels that came to Lot.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Douggg said:

I don't use the term "human history". But if you want to say man's quasi independent rule over the nations, before the Kingdom of God becomes the ruling kingdom over the nations here on earth - then I am on board.

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I definitely worded it wrong, but I was meaning what you are meaning though.

Let's assume that all we had was Ezekiel 38 and 39. Thus no other Scriptures to consider. Who in either of these chapters is Ezekiel 39:17-20 being applied to? In order for there to be two battles here, you should be able to show this from these two chapters alone. How does it make good sense to get to verse 17 in Ezekiel 39, then have no one in that chapter nor chapter 38, to even apply this to?

DavidPT said:

Isaiah 30:26 says this---Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun

Now let's look at these together like such---Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun---it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light

If the moon shall be as the light of the sun, that would for sure help explain why at evening time it shall be light.

Assuming these are referring to the same events, nothing in Zechariah 14:6-7 leads me to believe anyone is being burned to ashes by fire from the sun.

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Wrong assumption.
Isaiah 30:25-30 plainly refers to the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. When His arm will descend in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire.
Just as Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-3 and 2 Peter 3:8. plus over 70 other prophesies describe.

Zechariah 14:6-7 is obviously the Day Jesus will Return, as verse 5 says.