The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

Aldebaran said:

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

There are some things that can be said regarding these verses of that chapter. First, Jesus is the vine, and we are the branches. He didn't say that we become a branch by abiding in Him, but that we already are branches.

In verse 6, Jesus talks about those who aren't saved. "He is cast forth as a branch" doesn't say that the man was first removed from Christ. That would have to happen before being cast forth and withered. It's possible that the "man" Jesus referred to in verse 6 was never joined to Him in the first place.

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The word abide means to stay, remain, continue and verse 2 does say that The Father does cut off branches who are in Christ that do not bare fruit.

Bible Highlighter said:

But that is not consistent with Scripture, though. For...
We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).
"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
(Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22)

If Once Saved Always Saved was true, then these statements would not exist in Scripture.

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It is only those who are born of God's seed who can obey these exhortations.

Does saying "Bless you" after someone sneezes mean they can't sneeze ever again?
We can manifest we were not born of God at any time our faith is shown to be false.
so exhortations to remain Godly are not a waste of time.
They are encouragement and warning.
As our salvation won't be assured till we see that our names are still in the book of life, admonitions and warnings are truly both warranted and appreciated by those walking so close to "the edge".
As you cited above, "...IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).
"IF"...
Hold fast till the end !

Phil W said:

It is only those who are born of God's seed who can obey these exhortations.

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I never said otherwise. We are saved first by God's grace by faith (in Christ and the gospel and by His mercy), and then Sanctification is the next process of salvation or working by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You said:

Does saying "Bless you" after someone sneezes mean they can't sneeze ever again?
We can manifest we were not born of God at any time our faith is shown to be false.
so exhortations to remain Godly are not a waste of time.
They are encouragement and warning.
As our salvation won't be assured till we see that our names are still in the book of life, admonitions and warnings are truly both warranted and appreciated by those walking so close to "the edge".
As you cited above, "...IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).
"IF"...
Hold fast till the end !

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Then it is not Once Saved Always Saved because if somebody can walk close to the edge, then they can fall off that edge; Hence, why there are such warnings in Scripture. If it was impossible to fall away or to become a castaway or to be the unprofitable servant, then no such writings would exist in God's Word. All there would be is a teaching on believe in Jesus and your good to go. But that's not what we see. There are warnings against sin and how it can destroy our soul. There are warnings on being fruitful (i.e. to bring forth fruits or deeds worthy of repentance, (i.e. seeking forgiveness with the Lord)). We are told to live holy. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). But if we just accept Jesus and believe on Him, then such a warning in Hebrews 12:14 should not exist. For many believe that once you genuinely accept Jesus or believe in Him, you will in time automatically live that holy life as described in Hebrews 12:14. Unfortunately, when push comes to shove and you ask them about if they sin, they finally admit their true teaching, they will say they sin every day in thought, action, and deed. So their idea of how the Bible defines holy living or the Sanctification process is non-existent for them. Jesus will not excuse grievous sin or iniquity that believer's feel that they cannot overcome (See: Matthew 7:23, Matthew 7:26-27, Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

It is true that the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him (Acts of the Apostles 5:32), but I am starting to see this as including more of God's grace now. David did not lose the Holy Spirit when he sinned because he said to the Lord not take the Holy Spirit from him (Psalms 51:11). While I believe David was abiding in spiritual death when he committed his sins of adultery and murder (Which is consistent with the Parable of the Prodigal Son in the son was said to be: "dead" and "alive again" - Luke 15:24, Luke 15:32; And it is also consistent with Matthew 5:28-30, Proverbs 6:32, and 1 John 3:15) God was giving David grace to repent and God still was using David as a temple for the Spirit to convict him of his error or recent sins. Now, as for the Son abiding in us: Well, I am not so sure we abide in the Son while we commit grievous sin. We need to confess and forsake such a sin. We need to walk in the light, and keep His commandments. Jesus says if we keep His commandments we will abide in His love. Meaning, we will abide in Him.

Thank you for this thread, BC Senior (Even if we not agree perfectly on everything).

May God's grace, love, and goodness be upon you today.

Bible Highlighter said:

I am just saying that Luke 3:8 makes it clear that fruit is referring to works

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It is not clear that Luke 3:8 refers to works, it could be referring to behaviour - show by your character and behaviour that you have repented and changed. I've read testimonies where people who have become Christians have immediately been filled with the joy of the Lord and the change has been obvious - before they have done anything.
In Luke 3:10 the people asked what they should do and John told them. But doing what someone tells you is not necessarily evidence of repentance.
And we were talking about Matthew 7:16-19.

Bible Highlighter said:

You cannot have a different view of what the Bible plainly says.

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A word may mean to more than one thing, or refer to different things when it is used.
For example, the word "yeast" is often taken to symbolise sin - Jesus told his disciples to watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod, Mark 8:15. Yet Jesus himself said that the Kingdom of heaven is like yeast, Matthew 13:33.

In Genesis 1:22, fruit means literal fruit, grown on a tree.
In Deuteronomy 7:13 and Deuteronomy 28:4, Moses talks of God blessing the fruit of their wombs - clearly not literal fruit.
Psalms 109:11 and 128:2 talk about the fruit of a man's labour.
Amos 6:2 talks about the fruit of righteousness.
And Galatians 5:22-23 talks of the fruit of the Spirit.
Slightly different meanings on each occasion.

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, cooperating with the works of God He wants to do through our lives is not the same thing as counterfeit human works that attempts to mimic the real deal.

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I didn't say it was.
I was talking about wolves in sheep's clothing - i.e. people who might look harmless/like one of the flock but are actually false prophets and dangerous.
I said that there are non Christians who do good, and charitable works - people who we might think are o.k, or non believers may judge to be Christians. But just because they do good deeds, doesn't mean they are Christians. Something more is needed; a change of belief, behaviour, character and being born again by the Spirit of God - who produces fruit in us.

Strong in Him said:

It is not clear that Luke 3:8 refers to works, it could be referring to behaviour - show by your character and behaviour that you have repented and changed. I've read testimonies where people who have become Christians have immediately been filled with the joy of the Lord and the change has been obvious - before they have done anything.
In Luke 3:10 the people asked what they should do and John told them. But doing what someone tells you is not necessarily evidence of repentance.
And we were talking about Matthew 7:16-19.



A word may mean to more than one thing, or refer to different things when it is used.
For example, the word "yeast" is often taken to symbolise sin - Jesus told his disciples to watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod, Mark 8:15. Yet Jesus himself said that the Kingdom of heaven is like yeast, Matthew 13:33.

In Genesis 1:22, fruit means literal fruit, grown on a tree.
In Deuteronomy 7:13 and Deuteronomy 28:4, Moses talks of God blessing the fruit of their wombs - clearly not literal fruit.
Psalms 109:11 and 128:2 talk about the fruit of a man's labour.
Amos 6:2 talks about the fruit of righteousness.
And Galatians 5:22-23 talks of the fruit of the Spirit.
Slightly different meanings on each occasion.



I didn't say it was.
I was talking about wolves in sheep's clothing - i.e. people who might look harmless/like one of the flock but are actually false prophets and dangerous.
I said that there are non Christians who do good, and charitable works - people who we might think are o.k, or non believers may judge to be Christians. But just because they do good deeds, doesn't mean they are Christians. Something more is needed; a change of belief, behaviour, character and being born again by the Spirit of God - who produces fruit in us.

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In Luke 3:8, John the baptist says,

"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance,..." (Luke 3:8).

What fruits?

Here is the context:


Sounds like the fruits in context are things you do here (Which are works). They asked, "what shall we do?" John the baptist did not correct them and say it is not something you do like a work, but it is a heart change or behavior. John the baptist did not say such a thing.

Strong in Him said:

It is not clear that Luke 3:8 refers to works, it could be referring to behaviour - show by your character and behaviour that you have repented and changed. I've read testimonies where people who have become Christians have immediately been filled with the joy of the Lord and the change has been obvious - before they have done anything.
In Luke 3:10 the people asked what they should do and John told them. But doing what someone tells you is not necessarily evidence of repentance.
And we were talking about Matthew 7:16-19.



A word may mean to more than one thing, or refer to different things when it is used.
For example, the word "yeast" is often taken to symbolise sin - Jesus told his disciples to watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod, Mark 8:15. Yet Jesus himself said that the Kingdom of heaven is like yeast, Matthew 13:33.

In Genesis 1:22, fruit means literal fruit, grown on a tree.
In Deuteronomy 7:13 and Deuteronomy 28:4, Moses talks of God blessing the fruit of their wombs - clearly not literal fruit.
Psalms 109:11 and 128:2 talk about the fruit of a man's labour.
Amos 6:2 talks about the fruit of righteousness.
And Galatians 5:22-23 talks of the fruit of the Spirit.
Slightly different meanings on each occasion.



I didn't say it was.
I was talking about wolves in sheep's clothing - i.e. people who might look harmless/like one of the flock but are actually false prophets and dangerous.
I said that there are non Christians who do good, and charitable works - people who we might think are o.k, or non believers may judge to be Christians. But just because they do good deeds, doesn't mean they are Christians. Something more is needed; a change of belief, behaviour, character and being born again by the Spirit of God - who produces fruit in us.

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I don't think anyone who does not profess Jesus is okay based on their doing good works. I don't even think a Christian who professes Christ and does good works may be alright with the Lord, either. If they justify sin, they are not going to make it. Jesus warned against how certain sins can destroy our soul (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62). Based on our previous conversations, you do not appear to agree with what Jesus said in these verses.

Bible Highlighter said:

In Luke 3:8, John the baptist says,

"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance,..." (Luke 3:8).

What fruits?

Here is the context:

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John said, "bring forth fruits worthy of repentance", before the people said "what shall we do?"

Bible Highlighter said:

Sounds like the fruits in context are things you do here (Which are works).

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Yes, it sounds like that - but equally, "fruit" could be used in another way - like Deuteronomy which talks about fruit of the womb, which is not literal fruit, or deeds; and the fruit of the Spirit which is attributes, not deeds. I'm not saying that it categorically is, I'm saying it's possible.

But actually I originally said that about Matthew 7, which is what we were talking about.
You seem to be assuming that because "fruit" in Luke 3 is deeds, then everywhere "fruit" is mentioned it means deeds. I don't believe that is the case.

Bible Highlighter said:

John the baptist did not say such a thing.

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I never said he did.
I said that a) I was talking about Matthew 7 and b) that it is a fact that the word "fruit" does not always refer to deeds. It is possible that it does not only refer to deeds in Matthew 7 - I could be wrong but, to me, that is a possibility. You seem to have ruled out that possibility by saying that because "fruit" = "deeds" in Luke 3; it does everywhere.

Aldebaran said:

But logically, how does a branch not abide in the vine it's attached to? If it's attached, then it's part of the vine, is it not?

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People can accept Christ but at the same time never become a new creation or born again. Some take longer than others and some are never born again at all.

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

God is patient towards us when we accept Christ but He does have expectations of His children. If we continue to grieve the Holy Spirit we will not receive eternal life.

People can also fall to unbelief and can be broken off from God’s covenant for arrogance and pride.

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:17-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here we can see that branches whom God had grafted into His covenant were broken off for their disbelief and Paul is warning the Gentiles that if they are conceited (do not humble themselves) God will cut them off as well.

Aldebaran said:

But logically, how does a branch not abide in the vine it's attached to?

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If it were impossible for the branches to fail to remain in Christ because they are attached to Him then Jesus is apparently warning His 11 faithful apostles of doing something they are incapable of doing. This whole message in John 15 would be completely pointless and verse 6 would be describing an impossible scenario. That wouldn’t make much sense, Jesus might as well had warned them not to jump too high or you will suffocate in space.

Blade said:

The problem here is 'The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers" is not written. Not one verse you posted says that. Please show "only obedient" Did not God say "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Were they not all saved after Christ rose and walked with them 40 days? Yes.. so how many of them had the holy spirit? If they all had the holy spirit...then what was "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you." Send Him to you?

The verses you posted Christ was talking about Him. No where in what you posted was about the Holy Spirit that had not even come yet. Christ said the holy spirit will not talk about himself. In Matt Christ talking about AFTER He is gone "But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

How can anyone love someone they don't know? Who was Christ talking to? The 12 that have walked with Him for over 3 years. Context. Again the verse you posted was about Christ not the Holy Spirit

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Hi,

I happened to read your post and now respond to this portion of your post in particular. . .

Blade said:

The problem here is 'The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers" is not written.

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Firstly, faith without obedience is dead - a counterfeit faith:

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV)
... 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

The Great Commission
Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Blade said:

How can anyone love someone they don't know? Who was Christ talking to? The 12 that have walked with Him for over 3 years. Context. Again the verse you posted was about Christ not the Holy Spirit

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Lord Jesus was speaking to those who loved God - those who actually called God there Father - "Heavenly Father"

The Spirit is only receive by faith, and faith, to be living, must be obedient.

Acts 5 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

In the full context of all Christ Jesus wrote regarding the Spirit, we understand that, to receive the Spirit of God we must ask God, as Father, to come into our hearts by faith. So not just anyone can refer to God as their Daddy, but only those who truly love God and know God. So, when Jesus taught others about asking the Father, He is identifying with those who already believed in God and loved God.

Faith is not empty or dead, but rather, a faith that refers to God as Abba Father (Aramaic) is living. Faith means you are trusting in someone, and in this case love the one in whom you trust. A living Bible Faith is always demonstrated in obedience.

Blessings,
Steven