LDS One Essence

ViaCrucis said:

Sh'ma Yisrael YHVH Eloheinu, YHVH echad. "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one."

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You are right we believe they are one, but they are one in purpose and one in thought. That is the only way I can reconcile all the scriptures in the bible in regard to the nature of God and Jesus and their relationship to each other.[/QUOTE]

Peter1000 said:

JS did try to defend his life. And to me he is a martyr. So think differently as you wish.

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martyr
noun

mar·tyr | \ ˈmär-tər \
Definition of martyr


1 : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion
2 : a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle a martyr to the cause of freedom
3 : victim especially : a great or constant sufferer a martyr to asthma all his life

Peter1000 said:

You are right we believe they are one, but they are one in purpose and one in thought. That is the only way I can reconcile all the scriptures in the bible in regard to the nature of God and Jesus and their relationship to each other.

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[/QUOTE]

After the incarnation. Pre-incarnation they were of one essence also.

mmksparbud said:

The 3 are one God---Jesus is not a God as you guys think He is just one of many sons the Father has. Jesus and the Father were of one essence before Jesus became human.

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God and Jesus are of the same essence. You say humans are of the same essence. But John 17 tells us that we can be one, just like God and Jesus are one. And we can be one with them.

If we can be one with them, I suspect we will have to be changed into the same essence as they are, right?

mmksparbud said:

martyr
noun

mar·tyr | \ ˈmär-tər \
Definition of martyr


1 : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion
2 : a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle a martyr to the cause of freedom
3 : victim especially : a great or constant sufferer a martyr to asthma all his life

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JS voluntarily gave up his life for the cause of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was on an island in the middle of the Mississippi and headed for the west. His wife came to him and ask him to come back and help his people. He told her that if he came back he would be killed. He decided to come back and voluntarily gave himself up to a sheriff and was taken to jail in another city.

A promise was given to him at the time by the governor of Illinois that if he would give himself up, he would protect his life and he would have a fair trial. When it became obvious that the governor had betrayed him and the hounds had killed his brother, he did try to defend himself, shooting off six shots through a hole in the door. He then went to the window and stood there and was shot from without and within the jail.

You can think what a martyr is and can argue your point, but to me he voluntarily gave up his life for his cause, his little six shooter made no difference in the event. He calmly stood in the window and was killed.

There was a trial and nobody was convicted even though there were many witnesses to the double murder.

Everyone thought the church was done for. Their brilliant leader was dead, so would the church be. They just did not realize this was the Church of Jesus Christ, not the Church of JS. From that day to now the church has been one of the fastest growing churches in the world and will continue to grow as the second coming nears.

mmksparbud said:

After the incarnation. Pre-incarnation they were of one essence also.

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So you think they are not of the same essence today?

Peter1000 said:

God and Jesus are of the same essence. You say humans are of the same essence. But John 17 tells us that we can be one, just like God and Jesus are one. And we can be one with them.

If we can be one with them, I suspect we will have to be changed into the same essence as they are, right?

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I said---many, many, many times---The Father and Son were one essence before the incarnation. The Father was never human. Jesus became Human, became lower than the angels so they were no longer entirely of the same essence, though Jesus did retain His divinity, God never acquired humanity. And Jesus became human---He now has a glorified human body, but still divine---we share the same kind of human glorified body---BUT WE WILL NEVER HAVE HIS DIVINITY! I have said this so many times I've lost count.

mmksparbud said:

Same goes for what you say.

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And all I have to back it up is a song and a NDE book:
Oh My Father

Lyrics

1. 1. O my Father, thou that dwellest
   In the high and glorious place,
   When shall I regain thy presence
   And again behold thy face?
   In thy holy habitation,
   Did my spirit once reside?
   In my first primeval childhood
   Was I nurtured near thy side?
2. 2. For a wise and glorious purpose
   Thou hast placed me here on earth
   And withheld the recollection
   Of my former friends and birth;
   Yet ofttimes a secret something
   Whispered, "You're a stranger here,"
   And I felt that I had wandered
   From a more exalted sphere.
3. 3. I had learned to call thee Father,
   Thru thy Spirit from on high,
   But, until the key of knowledge
   Was restored, I knew not why.
   In the heav'ns are parents single?
   No, the thought makes reason stare!
   Truth is reason; truth eternal
   Tells me I've a mother there.
4. 4. When I leave this frail existence,
   When I lay this mortal by,
   Father, Mother, may I meet you
   In your royal courts on high?
   Then, at length, when I've completed
   All you sent me forth to do,
   With your mutual approbation
   Let me come and dwell with you.
5. Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1804-1887
   Music: James McGranahan, 1840-1907

He is the way said:

And all I have to back it up is a song and a NDE book:
Oh My Father

Lyrics

1. 1. O my Father, thou that dwellest
   In the high and glorious place,
   When shall I regain thy presence
   And again behold thy face?
   In thy holy habitation,
   Did my spirit once reside?
   In my first primeval childhood
   Was I nurtured near thy side?
2. 2. For a wise and glorious purpose
   Thou hast placed me here on earth
   And withheld the recollection
   Of my former friends and birth;
   Yet ofttimes a secret something
   Whispered, "You're a stranger here,"
   And I felt that I had wandered
   From a more exalted sphere.
3. 3. I had learned to call thee Father,
   Thru thy Spirit from on high,
   But, until the key of knowledge
   Was restored, I knew not why.
   In the heav'ns are parents single?
   No, the thought makes reason stare!
   Truth is reason; truth eternal
   Tells me I've a mother there.
4. 4. When I leave this frail existence,
   When I lay this mortal by,
   Father, Mother, may I meet you
   In your royal courts on high?
   Then, at length, when I've completed
   All you sent me forth to do,
   With your mutual approbation
   Let me come and dwell with you.
5. Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1804-1887
   Music: James McGranahan, 1840-1907

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Which adds up to nothing.

mmksparbud said:

I said---many, many, many times---The Father and Son were one essence before the incarnation. The Father was never human. Jesus became Human, became lower than the angels so they were no longer entirely of the same essence, though Jesus did retain His divinity, God never acquired humanity. And Jesus became human---He now has a glorified human body, but still divine---we share the same kind of human glorified body---BUT WE WILL NEVER HAVE HIS DIVINITY! I have said this so many times I've lost count.

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When you say we will never have his divinity, I always show you this scripture in the bible, lest you forget:
2 Peter 1:3-4 King James Version (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So according to the bible, God has given us all things that pertain to godliness. To me that means we can be gods, like him.

And because we have escaped the corruption of this world's lusts, we are able to be partakers of the divine nature. To me that means we can have the same divine nature as God and Jesus.
Therefore we can be of the same essence as they are, we can be one with them. Thus explaining John 17 clearly.

Again, you do not agree even though it is before your eyes in the bible. But I believe you are missing out on a biblical doctrine that gives great promise and hope to remain clean in this world of corrupting lust. So stay clean and you will see amazing things in the resurrection.

Peter1000 said:

When you say we will never have his divinity, I always show you this scripture in the bible, lest you forget:
2 Peter 1:3-4 King James Version (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So according to the bible, God has given us all things that pertain to godliness. To me that means we can be gods, like him.

And because we have escaped the corruption of this world's lusts, we are able to be partakers of the divine nature. To me that means we can have the same divine nature as God and Jesus.
Therefore we can be of the same essence as they are, we can be one with them. Thus explaining John 17 clearly.

Again, you do not agree even though it is before your eyes in the bible. But I believe you are missing out on a biblical doctrine that gives great promise and hope to remain clean in this world of corrupting lust. So stay clean and you will see amazing things in the resurrection.

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And I keep reminding you---that means His divine personality. We can never become divine. Now, you would think that an angel, who is created above us, if he were not able to become divine in all the time he was there (which could have been millions of years before he fell)why would a human, be able to? We are not His natural children, that is why we are adopted. It is clear throughout the bible that we are created beings---the angels are created, nothing created can become divine.

Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Rev_10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

1Co_11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Lucifer was created and all the angels.

Eze_28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze_28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in

mmksparbud said:

And I keep reminding you---that means His divine personality. We can never become divine. Now, you would think that an angel, who is created above us, if he were not able to become divine in all the time he was there (which could have been millions of years before he fell)why would a human, be able to? We are not His natural children, that is why we are adopted. It is clear throughout the bible that we are created beings---the angels are created, nothing created can become divine.

Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Rev_10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

1Co_11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Lucifer was created and all the angels.

Eze_28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze_28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in

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(New Testament | Hebrews 12:10)

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

(New Testament | Ephesians 3:19)

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:48)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

(New Testament | Romans 8:16 - 17)

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Peter1000 said:

We believe they were his companions in the pre-earth life. Jesus was annointed by his Father, he was annointed above his companions. In that setting, which was pre-earth, Jesus had companions.

We can argue about it, but the text is as clear one way as it is another. You believe one way, you believe another. Both are biblical beliefs, both are reasonable to be grounded in. We will know sooner or later which interpretation is right.

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Except that "pre-earth life" is a concept foreign to the Bible. David writes, "For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb."

Yes, Jesus existed prior to His Incarnation, because He's God, the very Logos, who became flesh.

So you can't claim "both are biblical beliefs", one does have a basis in the biblical texts and it is what Christians have believed for two thousand years, and the other has no basis in the biblical texts and has never been Christian belief.

And, no, bringing up Origen here would not be a valid argument against this point. Origen erred in trying too hard to reconcile Christianity with Platonism. And it's why Origen needs to be read with a grain of salt and with a critical mind.

-CryptoLutheran

Peter1000 said:

You are right we believe they are one, but they are one in purpose and one in thought. That is the only way I can reconcile all the scriptures in the bible in regard to the nature of God and Jesus and their relationship to each other.

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Echad means "one". It doesn't mean "united with one purpose", it doesn't mean (as even some well-meaning Christian apologists have argued) a compound one. It means one. God is one, there is only one God.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Echad means "one". It doesn't mean "united with one purpose", it doesn't mean (as even some well-meaning Christian apologists have argued) a compound one. It means one. God is one, there is only one God.

-CryptoLutheran

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Jesus explained how they are one:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Peter1000 said:

JS voluntarily gave up his life for the cause of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was on an island in the middle of the Mississippi and headed for the west. His wife came to him and ask him to come back and help his people. He told her that if he came back he would be killed. He decided to come back and voluntarily gave himself up to a sheriff and was taken to jail in another city.

A promise was given to him at the time by the governor of Illinois that if he would give himself up, he would protect his life and he would have a fair trial. When it became obvious that the governor had betrayed him and the hounds had killed his brother, he did try to defend himself, shooting off six shots through a hole in the door. He then went to the window and stood there and was shot from without and within the jail.

You can think what a martyr is and can argue your point, but to me he voluntarily gave up his life for his cause, his little six shooter made no difference in the event. He calmly stood in the window and was killed.

There was a trial and nobody was convicted even though there were many witnesses to the double murder.

Everyone thought the church was done for. Their brilliant leader was dead, so would the church be. They just did not realize this was the Church of Jesus Christ, not the Church of JS. From that day to now the church has been one of the fastest growing churches in the world and will continue to grow as the second coming nears.

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he did try to defend himself, shooting off six shots through a hole in the door. He then went to the window and stood there and was shot from without and within the jail.

and then we go to the definition of a martyr

martyr
noun

mar·tyr | \ ˈmär-tər \
Definition of martyr


1 : a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion

Seems if there was no "voluntarily" about it all, as he fired off 6 shots.

JS's God or god could not save him?

He is the way said:

Jesus explained how they are one:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

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It's like a broken record over here.

-CryptoLutheran

Jamesone5 said:

JS's God or god could not save him?

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He only fired the shots once it was clear that the mob was willing to kill everyone in the room with him to get at him.

Does that enter into your equation?

And your little snipe could be applied to every last person in the history of Christianity who died for the faith.

ViaCrucis said:

It's like a broken record over here.

-CryptoLutheran

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Yes, it will continue until people begin to understand what Jesus is saying.

He is the way said:

Yes, it will continue until people begin to understand what Jesus is saying.

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Will you be the first?