How many times can one be regenerated?

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"OK, now prove your claim from a Greek lexicon."

You bet I do.


Did Peter believe in Jesus as the Messiah when he denied Him 3 times?

Did King David believe in the Messiah when he raped and murdered?

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This is such a cop-out.
Judas denied Jesus too.
What's the difference??
Peter loved Jesus but was scared he might be crucified too. This might be enough to scare anyone.

Peter DID NOT deny Jesus in his heart.
I have no opinion on David.
Only God knows these things.

Doubting and failing to obey the boss aren't even close to being the same.

If you have a boss that orders you to do things that you don't think will benefit the company, do you really think you have the right to disobey your boss????????????

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You might have to do what he says,,,,but you have no faith or trust in him and would not follow him if you could....

Let me be clear. As long as you are under any boss/manager/etc, you'd BETTER follow orders or expect to be FIRED. But this "example" has nothing to do with salvation.

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Why does the above have nothing to do with salvation?
We are under Christ...so we should follow His orders... This is MORE important than following the orders of another person - who has no control over our eternal life.

Actually it means "to disbelieve".

From biblehub.com -
Cognate: 544 apeithéō – literally, refuse to be persuaded (by the Lord). See 543 (apeitheia).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 544: ἀπειθέω

ἀπειθέω, ἀπειθῶ; imperfect ἠπείθουν; 1 aorist ἠπείθησα; "to be ἀπειθής (which see); not to allow oneself to be persuaded; not to comply with;
a. to refuse or withhold belief (in Christ, in the gospel; opposed to πιστεύω): τῷ υἱῷ, John 3:36; τῷ λόγῳ, 1 Peter 2:8; 1 Peter 3:1; absolutely of those who reject the gospel, (R. V. to be disobedient; cf. b.): Acts 14:2; Acts 17:5 (Rec.); ; Romans 15:31; 1 Peter 2:7 (T Tr WH ἀπιστοῦσιν).

b. to refuse belief and obedience: with the dative of thing or of person, Romans 2:8 (τῇ ἀλήθεια); f (τῷ θεῷ); 1 Peter 4:17; absolutely, Romans 10:21(Isaiah 65:2); Hebrews 3:18; Hebrews 11:31; 1 Peter 3:20. (In the Sept. a common equivalent to מָרָה, סָרַר; in Greek writings often from Aeschylus Ag. 1049 down; in Homer et al. ἀπίθειν.)

Result 3- Disbelieve
1 Pet 2:7, "be disobedient"); "disbelieve" (or "disbelieved") in the RV, in Mark 16:11,16; Luke 24:11,41; Acts 28:24; "disbelieve" is the best rendering, implying that the unbeliever has had a full opportunity of believing and has rejected it; some mss. have apeitheo, "to be disobedient," in 1 Pet 2:7; Rom 3:3, RV, "were without faith;" 2 Tim 2:13, RV, "are faithless. Cp. apeitheo under DISOBEDIENT.


Thank you for supporting my point. btw, all you've done is stick the letter 'a' in front of the Greek word for 'believe'.

If you parse John 3:36 you will note that the first occurrence of "believe" is pisteuo. But the second word is apietho, NOT apistos. And I've shown above what apietho means. Note the red bolded words.

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Sure. And could you please note all the bolded and underlined places where it speaks of DISOBEDIENCE?
And could we now stop talking about Greek which neither one of us knows.
Lexicons do NOT tell the whole story.
I'm absolutely positive that the opposite of belief,,,which is unbelief, also means disobey. You could check this out with a Greek scholar perhaps.

David was a saved OT believer. He raped and murdered. Is that obedience?

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I don't feel knowledgeable enough to know when David was saved and when he was not. It's not for me to say,,,but I truly doubt he was.

FreeGrace2 said:

This is what I'm talking about.

This sentence clarifies that "obedience" in this verse is equated to believing.

So, the verse says that those who believe have eternal life, but those who don't believe will not see life (or have eternal life) and face God's wrath.

Click to expand...

Yes, you're right.
Some bibles say disbelieve and some say disobey.

This is because disbelieve and disobey is similar in the Greek.
To disbelieve includes in the meaning...disobey.

So to disobey is the same as to disbelieve.

So wait:
Why is this so important to you?
Do you think we should not obey God?

GodsGrace101 said:

This is such a cop-out.
Judas denied Jesus too.
What's the difference??

Click to expand...

Great question!!

The difference? Judas NEVER believed in Jesus as Messiah.

Judas was an opportunist.

Peter loved Jesus but was scared he might be crucified too. This might be enough to scare anyone.

Click to expand...

So what?

Peter DID NOT deny Jesus in his heart.
I have no opinion on David.
Only God knows these things.

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Uh, God recorded in His Word what happened to David. You opened this post with "such a cop-out". Well, it's obvious you know a whole lot about cop-outs, since you are pulling one with David.

The record is clear. Have you even read the account of David and his rape and murder? Or would you prefer to be left in the dark about his crimes?

Well, the Bible didn't leave us in the dark about them. It's all laid out in the open.

So, if you did read the account, it is impossible to have "no opinion" about it. It couldn't be any more clear.

Why does the above have nothing to do with salvation?
We are under Christ...so we should follow His orders... This is MORE important than following the orders of another person - who has no control over our eternal life.

Click to expand...

Because, as I have been pointing out, salvation/eternal life are GIFTS, NOT rewards.

A reward follows being obedient, just like one does with one's children.

And could you please note all the bolded and underlined places where it speaks of DISOBEDIENCE?

Click to expand...

In the context of obedience for salvation, it means to believe.

In any other context, it cannot mean that.

And could we now stop talking about Greek which neither one of us knows.

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Thanks for your admission. But I DO know about Greek. I've been reading and studying Greek lexicons and several Greek grammar texts for years. So I'm not as unlearned as you have admitted.

So I'll continue talking about Greek. Because that's what the original autograph was written in. So we NEED to understand what the original meant.

Lexicons do NOT tell the whole story.

Click to expand...

No, lexicons explain the whole story.

Or, are you actually suggesting that we can't know the "whole story" and cannot trust any Greek lexicon????

How do you think a student of Greek becomes an expert apart from lexicons?

Maybe they have access to time machines and they go back to the first Century and learn the language that is no longer spoken. lol.

I'm absolutely positive that the opposite of belief,,,which is unbelief, also means disobey. You could check this out with a Greek scholar perhaps.

Click to expand...

I have the lexicons, the SAME ONES, you know, that Greek scholars have been studying. lol.

I don't feel knowledgeable enough to know when David was saved and when he was not. It's not for me to say,,,but I truly doubt he was.

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Well, by the time he got around to raping and murdering, he had been king for quite a long time. He was no spring chicken at that time.

And, yet, you want to suggest that he might not have been saved at that time????

I do agree with you, though, about not "feeling knowledgeable enough to know" about David. Thanks for the honesty.

Didn't you ever read the account of when Samuel was sent by God to Jesse to pick the next king over Israel? Do you really believe that Samuel was sent to pick out an unbeliever??

And are you so unknowledgeable about the account of David (WAY before becoming king) when he faced off with Goliath because of his STRONG FAITH in the Lord?

btw, he also mentioned that with the Lord's help, he killed a lion and a bear while shepherding. And he never told anyone. How's that for humility?

So don't get me that song and dance about doubting David's salvation just because he raped and murdered. His record prior to those crimes PROVES that he was a believer in the Messiah.

Sheesh.

GodsGrace101 said:

Yes, you're right.
Some bibles say disbelieve and some say disobey.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

This is because disbelieve and disobey is similar in the Greek.
To disbelieve includes in the meaning...disobey.

So to disobey is the same as to disbelieve.

Click to expand...

Yes, they do overlap. But you are WRONG to make this claim. It all depends on the context. And 'pistis/piseuo' does NOT mean obey. No lexicon says so.

The only time "obey" (pietho) is linked to salvation/gospel is when it means to believe, or in the case of John 3:36, it means to "disbelieve".

So wait:
Why is this so important to you?
Do you think we should not obey God?

Click to expand...

Of course we SHOULD OBEY GOD. Is that clear enough for you?

But, DON'T make the mistake of claiming salvation is through obedience, unless you actually mean 'to believe'.

Because the Bible doesn't make that mistake.

Yes, the Bible does call for general obedience to the commands in the Bible. But NOT for salvation. For reward, and blessings.

FreeGrace2 said:

Great question!!

The difference? Judas NEVER believed in Jesus as Messiah.

Judas was an opportunist.

Click to expand...

This is my point.
They both denied Jesus...but one loved Jesus.

Uh, God recorded in His Word what happened to David. You opened this post with "such a cop-out". Well, it's obvious you know a whole lot about cop-outs, since you are pulling one with David.

The record is clear. Have you even read the account of David and his rape and murder? Or would you prefer to be left in the dark about his crimes?

Well, the Bible didn't leave us in the dark about them. It's all laid out in the open.

So, if you did read the account, it is impossible to have "no opinion" about it. It couldn't be any more clear.

Click to expand...

No cop out. I don't know if David was saved or not.
I don't know how ANYBODY could know.
If you care to post some verses to show how he was, I'd be interested to hear your opinion.

Because, as I have been pointing out, salvation/eternal life are GIFTS, NOT rewards.

A reward follows being obedient, just like one does with one's children.


In the context of obedience for salvation, it means to believe.

In any other context, it cannot mean that.

Click to expand...

It's a gift. Fine.
But isn't it also a reward?
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
??

Thanks for your admission. But I DO know about Greek. I've been reading and studying Greek lexicons and several Greek grammar texts for years. So I'm not as unlearned as you have admitted.

So I'll continue talking about Greek. Because that's what the original autograph was written in. So we NEED to understand what the original meant.


No, lexicons explain the whole story.

Or, are you actually suggesting that we can't know the "whole story" and cannot trust any Greek lexicon????

How do you think a student of Greek becomes an expert apart from lexicons?

Maybe they have access to time machines and they go back to the first Century and learn the language that is no longer spoken. lol.


I have the lexicons, the SAME ONES, you know, that Greek scholars have been studying. lol.

Click to expand...

No time machines!
They study Greek, just like any other language.
I didn't learn Italian by studying Italian lexicons.....
But by studying Italian, or Spanish, or any language.
Anyway, I feel like the translators of the original Greek were much more knowledgeable about this than I'll ever be, so....
I trust that they did the best they could.

Well, by the time he got around to raping and murdering, he had been king for quite a long time. He was no spring chicken at that time.

And, yet, you want to suggest that he might not have been saved at that time????

I do agree with you, though, about not "feeling knowledgeable enough to know" about David. Thanks for the honesty.

Didn't you ever read the account of when Samuel was sent by God to Jesse to pick the next king over Israel? Do you really believe that Samuel was sent to pick out an unbeliever??

And are you so unknowledgeable about the account of David (WAY before becoming king) when he faced off with Goliath because of his STRONG FAITH in the Lord?

btw, he also mentioned that with the Lord's help, he killed a lion and a bear while shepherding. And he never told anyone. How's that for humility?

Click to expand...

I didn't say he was NEVER saved....I just don't know when or if ... I leave that to God.

So don't get me that song and dance about doubting David's salvation just because he raped and murdered. His record prior to those crimes PROVES that he was a believer in the Messiah.

Sheesh.

Click to expand...

I said I don't know.
I never judge a person's salvation.
And what's the sheesh about?
You don't have to reply if you don't want to.

FreeGrace2 said:

Thank you.


Yes, they do overlap. But you are WRONG to make this claim. It all depends on the context. And 'pistis/piseuo' does NOT mean obey. No lexicon says so.

The only time "obey" (pietho) is linked to salvation/gospel is when it means to believe, or in the case of John 3:36, it means to "disbelieve".


Of course we SHOULD OBEY GOD. Is that clear enough for you?

But, DON'T make the mistake of claiming salvation is through obedience, unless you actually mean 'to believe'.

Because the Bible doesn't make that mistake.

Yes, the Bible does call for general obedience to the commands in the Bible. But NOT for salvation. For reward, and blessings.

Click to expand...

So if we do not obey...we still go to heaven....
but we get no rewards or blessings???

Could you clarify?
If you wish to.

GodsGrace101 said:

This is my point.
They both denied Jesus...but one loved Jesus.

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No, Peter believed that Jesus was the Christ. He was a believer. Judas was numbered among those disciples who did NOT believe.

John 6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

No cop out. I don't know if David was saved or not.

Click to expand...

I just explained why he was. Please read my posts.

I don't know how ANYBODY could know.

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Who did David give credit when he killed a bear and a lion as a young shepherd??

1 Sam 17-
11 On hearing the Philistine’s words, Saul and all the Israelites were dismayed and terrified.
12 Now David was the son of an Ephrathite named Jesse, who was from Bethlehem in Judah. Jesse had eight sons, and in Saul’s time he was very old.
13 Jesse’s three oldest sons had followed Saul to the war: The firstborn was Eliab; the second, Abinadab; and the third, Shammah.
14 David was the youngest. The three oldest followed Saul,
15 but David went back and forth from Saul to tend his father’s sheep at Bethlehem.

23 As he was talking with them, Goliath, the Philistine champion from Gath, stepped out from his lines and shouted his usual defiance, and David heard it.
24Whenever the Israelites saw the man, they all fled from him in great fear.

26 David asked the men standing near him, “What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace from Israel? Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?”

33 Saul replied, “You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him; you are only a young man, and he has been a warrior from his youth.”
34 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock,
35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.
36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.
37The LORD who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine.” Saul said to David, “Go, and the LORD be with you.”

But, there's more. The previous chapter in 1 Sam.

1 The LORD said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.”

10 Jesse had seven of his sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel said to him, “The LORD has not chosen these.”
11 So he asked Jesse, “Are these all the sons you have?” “There is still the youngest,” Jesse answered. “He is tending the sheep.” Samuel said, “Send for him; we will not sit down until he arrives.”

14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
15 Saul’s attendants said to him, “See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.

18 One of the servants answered, “I have seen a son of Jesse of Bethlehem who knows how to play the lyre. He is a brave man and a warrior. He speaks well and is a fine-looking man. And the LORD is with him.”


1 Sam 13:14 - 14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the LORD’s command.”

Guess who the Lord was referring to in this conversation to King Saul?

Acts 13:22 - After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’

Now, if you are still unsure of David's spiritual status, I am sorry.

If you care to post some verses to show how he was, I'd be interested to hear your opinion.

Click to expand...

Directly above.

It's a gift. Fine.
But isn't it also a reward?

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<sigh>

No, it CAN'T be. Haven't you followed my argument?

By DEFINITION, a gift is NOT a reward. Or vice versa.

A gift is NOT earned.
A reward IS earned.

Please acknowledge that you see the difference.

If you still think a gift and reward are the same thing, I have nothing more to say.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
??

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Where do you see a gift being equated with a reward?

This passage is clearly about reward, not gifts. Rewards are EARNED. Gifts are NOT.

No time machines!
They study Greek, just like any other language.
I didn't learn Italian by studying Italian lexicons.....
But by studying Italian, or Spanish, or any language.

Click to expand...

So, if you didn't study a dictionary for a language, just what did you study in order to learn what words in that language mean?

Anyway, I feel like the translators of the original Greek were much more knowledgeable about this than I'll ever be, so....
I trust that they did the best they could.

Click to expand...

Are you actually insinuating that any translation of Scripture just isn't quite believable?

I didn't say he was NEVER saved....I just don't know when or if ... I leave that to God.

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Well, I just gave you the Scripture that proves that he was SAVED as a young shepherd.

I said I don't know.
I never judge a person's salvation.

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The Bible clearly indicates that David was saved even as a young shepherd.

GodsGrace101 said:

So if we do not obey...we still go to heaven....
but we get no rewards or blessings???

Could you clarify?
If you wish to.

Click to expand...

Of course I wish to. I enjoying defending Scripture.

Believers are children of God. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a GUARANTEE of their inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14.

They are given eternal life. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.
They shall never perish. John 10:28.

So, yes, disobedient children of God will STILL go to heaven.

But, while on earth, they WILL suffer God's hand of divine discipline, which will be painful. Heb 12:11.

And, in eternity, they will not have rewards, such as these:

Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The red words speak to the inheritance as children of God. Guaranteed.

The blue words speak to rewards, as noted by the conditional clause "IF we share".

But, what does "share in his glory" refer to?

Glad you asked.

Paul answers in 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

Do you see that "endure" is the opposite of "deny"?

So, believers who endure in the faith will be rewarded with "reigning with Him". This is what "sharing in His glory" back in Rom 8:17 means.

However, the other side of the coin is IF we deny Him (the faith), He will deny the believer the reward of reigning with him.

FreeGrace2 said:

This demonstrates a total lack of understanding of parables and figures of speech. The subject in Johh 15:1-7 is about bearing fruit, not getting saved. Branches that don't bear fruit are discarded from use. Duh.

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More of your opinion, without scripture.

You will have to come up with more that “you don’t understand”.

LOL!

God Himself removes from Christ, those who don’t obey!


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


In Christ = Eternal Life

Removed from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned.


Here’s how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


His Commandments are not burdensome.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 5:3-4





JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

Of course I wish to. I enjoying defending Scripture.

Believers are children of God. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a GUARANTEE of their inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14.

They are given eternal life. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.
They shall never perish. John 10:28.

So, yes, disobedient children of God will STILL go to heaven.

But, while on earth, they WILL suffer God's hand of divine discipline, which will be painful. Heb 12:11.

And, in eternity, they will not have rewards, such as these:

Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The red words speak to the inheritance as children of God. Guaranteed.

The blue words speak to rewards, as noted by the conditional clause "IF we share".

But, what does "share in his glory" refer to?

Glad you asked.

Paul answers in 2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

Do you see that "endure" is the opposite of "deny"?

So, believers who endure in the faith will be rewarded with "reigning with Him". This is what "sharing in His glory" back in Rom 8:17 means.

However, the other side of the coin is IF we deny Him (the faith), He will deny the believer the reward of reigning with him.

Click to expand...

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Revelation 22:14-15



JLB

I said:
"This demonstrates a total lack of understanding of parables and figures of speech. The subject in Johh 15:1-7 is about bearing fruit, not getting saved. Branches that don't bear fruit are discarded from use. Duh."

JLB777 said:

More of your opinion, without scripture.

Click to expand...

So, John 15:1-7 isn't in your Bible, huh. lol

You will have to come up with more that “you don’t understand”.

Click to expand...

I have. Repeatedly. And you have dodged all that, repeatedly.

God Himself removes from Christ, those who don’t obey!

Click to expand...

Just an opinion, and one that cannot be found in Scripture.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

Click to expand...

How come you quote from the SAME passage as I cited, yet you charge me with having "no scripture"?

In Christ = Eternal Life

Removed from Christ = Cast into the fire and burned.

Click to expand...

What you've never addressed and need to, is how any believer can be removed from being IN HIM when Eph 1:13,14 GUARANTEES an inheritance to those sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Here’s how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Click to expand...

Since your theology doesn't acknowledge the spiritual concept of fellowship with the Lord, and you've ignored the explanations repeatedly, there's nothing more to say to you about it. Your eyes and ears are tightly closed on the subject.

His Commandments are not burdensome.

Click to expand...

Correct.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

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Who is this command TO? Believers. John wrote to believers. Believers are commanded to obey His commands.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 5:3-4

Click to expand...

There are, sadly, many believers who are liars and do not have the truth in them.

One example is those who think that salvation can be lost. That's ignorance. To claim the Bible teaches that is a lie.

JLB777 said:

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Revelation 22:14-15

Click to expand...

OK, let's break it down for you.

Those believers who do His commands will be blessed. This is a reward for behavior.

The reward is having the right to the tree of life in the New Jerusalem and the privilege of entering the city through the gates, which was an honor in the ancient world.

btw, since you quoted v.15 as well, I'd be interested in your understanding of "outside" which follows immediately after "into the city".

Your thoughts?

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"This demonstrates a total lack of understanding of parables and figures of speech. The subject in Johh 15:1-7 is about bearing fruit, not getting saved. Branches that don't bear fruit are discarded from use. Duh."

Click to expand...

The subject deals with remaining “in Christ”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain “in Christ”:


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


JLB

Some appear to be regenerated but,
in time fall away.

Could be the seed thrown onto rocky ground?

A test to check to be sure that a new heart truly has replaced the old heart.

We should never be comfortable with sin.

Constant communication with God
through prayer
his Word
Holy Spirit within us.

M-Bob

JLB777 said:

The subject deals with remaining “in Christ”.

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No. Just read the verse, carefully. What precedes the words "in Me"? The word ABIDE. That's the word you don't accept. And it speaks to fellowship, another word that you won't accept.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The subject of the passage in v.1-7 is about bearing fruit. Not getting or staying saved. So the metaphor has nothing to do with losing salvation. All you're doing is spiritualizing what Jesus said. Which is wrong.

I've noticed among Arminians an interesting trait. I call it "picky-choosy" when it comes to words and concepts.

For example, Arminians accept the Trinity, yet that word does NOT occur anywhere in Scripture. But the evidence is everywhere in Scripture.

Here is just one example: 2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Oh, and speaking of "fellowship", which occurs 14 times in the NT, 4 of which occur in the first chapter of 1 John alone, fellowship is a word and concept that Arminians just won't accept.

Why? Because it fully explains the verses about "loss" that Arminians would rather attach to salvation than to fellowship.

So, Arminians accept the concept of the Trinity, even though the word doesn't exist in Scripture.

But, Arminians won't accept the concept of fellowship of believers with the Lord, even though that word occurs many times in Scripture.

Here is how the scriptures teach us to remain “in Christ”:

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

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Your comment is correct, but your application of the verse is in error.

Eph 1:13,14 teaches that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE of the believer's inheritance, for the day of redemption.

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This principle was SO IMPORTANT that Paul wrote it twice.

So, what did Paul mean by "what is to come"? Well, he answered that in Eph 1:14 - until the redemption of those who are God’s possession.

And, just to make sure his point was getting across to people, he wrote Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So, EVEN though believers can and do "grieve the Holy Spirit of God", they are STILL SEALED for the day of redemption.

It should be obvious that sin and false doctrines grieve the Holy Spirit. And when the Spirit is grieved, there is NO FELLOWSHIP with the Spirit, or the Lord, for that matter.

So while Arminians claim that it is salvation that is lost by sin, no, in fact, it is fellowship that is lost.

Which the prodigal son parable clearly shows.

I invite you to address these verses and my points and prove that I'm wrong in my understanding of Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Col 1:22 and 5:5.

If you don't, then you have demonstrated that you can't.

your theology fails to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". 2 Tim 2:15

Mountainmanbob said:

Some appear to be regenerated but, in time fall away.

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Why do you add the word "appear"? Jesus never said any such thing. In Luke 8:13 He clearly stated that some "will believe for a while". He didn't say that they "appeared to believe", or any such thing. He was clear. They believed and they were saved. We know this because of what He said in the previous verse:

12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

He is stating the negative here; if they don't believe, they won't be saved. But the 2nd soil people DID believe because Jesus said they DID. I accept Jesus' words.

Could be the seed thrown onto rocky ground?

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It was. And plants sprouted. I see that as new life from the seed (Bible). Yet, the plants didn't have enough soil to mature and bear fruit. And Jesus equated that to believers (saved people) who fall away because of testings and temptations in life.

A test to check to be sure that a new heart truly has replaced the old heart.

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Except the parable of the soils wasn't about getting a new heart. It is about bearing fruit. Unbelievers (soil #1) can't bear fruit because there was NO plant. But soils #2-4 ALL produced plants from the seed (God's Word), but only 1 plant bore fruit.

We should never be comfortable with sin.

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Amen!!

Constant communication with God
through prayer
his Word
Holy Spirit within us.

M-Bob

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Amen.

FreeGrace2 said:

Why do you add the word "appear"? Jesus never said any such thing. In Luke 8:13 He clearly stated that some "will believe for a while". He didn't say that they "appeared to believe", or any such thing. He was clear. They believed and they were saved. We know this because of what He said in the previous verse:

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Meaningless parsing of words. The grace of God may be received in vain.

We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.

Oops!

The Boxer said:

Meaningless parsing of words. The grace of God may be received in vain.

We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.

Oops!

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I think you should have actu ally read the whole post. The word "appeared" doesn't occur in Luke 8:13, which was the verse being noted by the other poster.

iow, he/she was insinuating that the 2nd soil's belief wasn't true, and he wasn't saved.

So let's get this straight. The 2nd soil DID believe. And was saved, according to what Jesus in that context.

So you can forget trying to apply your totally out of context verse from 2 Cor 5. It has no context for what Jesus was saying in His parable.

btw, I couldn't find the last sentence of your supposed quoting of 2 Cor 5:21 in any of the 29 translations found on biblehub.com. What version are you using?

FreeGrace2 said:

No, Peter believed that Jesus was the Christ. He was a believer. Judas was numbered among those disciples who did NOT believe.

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The above is what I said....
They both denied Jesus...but one loved him.

John 6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

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Right.
Some did not believe.
And Jesus also knew who would betray Him by now.

I just explained why he was. Please read my posts.


Who did David give credit when he killed a bear and a lion as a young shepherd??

1 Sam 17-
11 On hearing the Philistine’s words, Saul and all the Israelites were dismayed and terrified.
12 Now David was the son of an Ephrathite named Jesse, who was from Bethlehem in Judah. Jesse had eight sons, and in Saul’s time he was very old.
13 Jesse’s three oldest sons had followed Saul to the war: The firstborn was Eliab; the second, Abinadab; and the third, Shammah.
14 David was the youngest. The three oldest followed Saul,
15 but David went back and forth from Saul to tend his father’s sheep at Bethlehem.

23 As he was talking with them, Goliath, the Philistine champion from Gath, stepped out from his lines and shouted his usual defiance, and David heard it.
24Whenever the Israelites saw the man, they all fled from him in great fear.

26 David asked the men standing near him, “What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace from Israel? Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?”

33 Saul replied, “You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him; you are only a young man, and he has been a warrior from his youth.”
34 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock,
35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.
36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.
37The LORD who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine.” Saul said to David, “Go, and the LORD be with you.”

But, there's more. The previous chapter in 1 Sam.

1 The LORD said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.”

10 Jesse had seven of his sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel said to him, “The LORD has not chosen these.”
11 So he asked Jesse, “Are these all the sons you have?” “There is still the youngest,” Jesse answered. “He is tending the sheep.” Samuel said, “Send for him; we will not sit down until he arrives.”

14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
15 Saul’s attendants said to him, “See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.

18 One of the servants answered, “I have seen a son of Jesse of Bethlehem who knows how to play the lyre. He is a brave man and a warrior. He speaks well and is a fine-looking man. And the LORD is with him.”


1 Sam 13:14 - 14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the LORD’s command.”

Guess who the Lord was referring to in this conversation to King Saul?

Acts 13:22 - After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’

Now, if you are still unsure of David's spiritual status, I am sorry.

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YOU just explained to me that David was saved?
When?
As a boy...,,,I'd tend to agree.
As he grew older?

"A man after my own heart, he will do everything I want him to do".

Did David do everything God wanted him to do?

I don't make proclamations on who is saved and who is not....
to me a person is saved IF they do God's will...
NOT if they sin.

<sigh>

No, it CAN'T be. Haven't you followed my argument?

By DEFINITION, a gift is NOT a reward. Or vice versa.

A gift is NOT earned.
A reward IS earned.

Please acknowledge that you see the difference.

If you still think a gift and reward are the same thing, I have nothing more to say.

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Why the sigh?
If you're tired, you don't have to continue to speak to me.
A gift is found in Ephesians 2:8-9
Grace
Faith
Salvation

these are gifts.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27,,,which is the scripture I posted,,,is speaking about a reward....Paul is running and tells us to run to win the PRIZE. A prize is a reward for doing something.

What do you think the reward is that Paul is speaking about?
In the last verse he says that even HE is afraid he might be disqualified.

Disqualified means to be declared ineligible.

Isn't James 1:7 a reward? A crown is a prize...a reward. As in 1 Cor 9.
12Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

This reward seems to be the Crown of Life.
Eternal Life.

Where do you see a gift being equated with a reward?

This passage is clearly about reward, not gifts. Rewards are EARNED. Gifts are NOT.

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I don't believe I said that gifts and rewards are equated.
If I did, I misspoke.

So, if you didn't study a dictionary for a language, just what did you study in order to learn what words in that language mean?

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LOL
You think that if you study a Spanish dictionary, you'll know how to speak Spanish???!!!
NO!

Well, I just gave you the Scripture that proves that he was SAVED as a young shepherd.


The Bible clearly indicates that David was saved even as a young shepherd.

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I agreed that he was most probably saved as a youngster.
I'm not willing to say about his future.
And I'm not sure why we're discussing David.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
No, Peter believed that Jesus was the Christ. He was a believer. Judas was numbered among those disciples who did NOT believe.

GodsGrace101 said:

The above is what I said....
They both denied Jesus...but one loved him.

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You missed the very clear point. Peter believed in Him. Judas did not.

Right.
Some did not believe.
And Jesus also knew who would betray Him by now.

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Did you pick up on the fact that in Jn 6:64 Jesus included betrayal and unbelieving in the same sentence?

YOU just explained to me that David was saved?

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Yes, I did. With Scriptural proof.

When?

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You want a date?? By the time David dispatched the big bully, he was already saved. How do I know? He gave God all the glory for his soon to occur victory over Goliath, AND he gave God all the glory for his domination over a lion and bear previously.

As a boy...,,,I'd tend to agree.

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Well, there you go.

As he grew older?

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With all due respect, your question is meaningless. If saved as a boy, why even question his status as he grew older?

"A man after my own heart, he will do everything I want him to do".

Did David do everything God wanted him to do?

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Wow. So now you're challenging the very words of Scripture. But I know this is a must for Arminians, since their views do NOT agree with clear Scripture.

I don't make proclamations on who is saved and who is not....
to me a person is saved IF they do God's will...

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That's a strange standard. Where do you find such a verse that supports your opinion?

Because that is all this is; your opinion. Probably emotionally driven.

It is very easy to make the proclamation about who is saved and who is not simply on the basis of who has ever believed. Period.

NOT if they sin.

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Are you suggesting that you no longer sin????

Why the sigh?

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Because of your answer.

If you're tired, you don't have to continue to speak to me.
A gift is found in Ephesians 2:8-9
Grace
Faith
Salvation

these are gifts.

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Right. Do you think a gift is something that is EARNED?

1 Corinthians 9:24-27,,,which is the scripture I posted,,,is speaking about a reward....Paul is running and tells us to run to win the PRIZE. A prize is a reward for doing something.

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Correct.

What do you think the reward is that Paul is speaking about?

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An eternal reward. I don't know the exact one, but there is list of them in Scripture.

In the last verse he says that even HE is afraid he might be disqualified.

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So, what does that mean to you? That he was worried about losing his salvation????>

No, he wanted his reward. Just as the apostle John wanted his reward.

2 John 1:8 - Watch out that you do not lose what wehave worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Disqualified means to be declared ineligible.

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Correct.

Isn't James 1:7 a reward? A crown is a prize...a reward. As in 1 Cor 9.
12Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

This reward seems to be the Crown of Life.
Eternal Life.

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Well, there's your error. Trying to equate the crown of life with eternal life. If you were correct, you would be the VERY FIRST PERSON IN HISTORY to prove that the Bible is internally contradictory. Congratulations!

However, don't bother celebrating, because you did no such thing.

Rom 6:23 directly describes eternal life as a gift. So it can't be both a gift and an EARNED reward. If you think so, then it is YOU who are internally contradictory.

I don't believe I said that gifts and rewards are equated.
If I did, I misspoke.

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Just scroll back up a bit and see it very clearly. You equated the EARNED reward of the crown of life with the UNEARNED gift of eternal life.

LOL
You think that if you study a Spanish dictionary, you'll know how to speak Spanish???!!!
NO!

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Wow, how you misunderstand what I said.

Here it is again:
"So, if you didn't study a dictionary for a language, just what did you study in order to learn what words in that language mean?"

So, please answer: if you don't have a dictionary (lexicon) regarding any language, how do you learn what words mean?

I never even suggested the silliness that you think I did.

I agreed that he was most probably saved as a youngster.
I'm not willing to say about his future.

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Well, the Bible disagrees with your opinion. A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE (future tense) be saved."

The tense for "believe" is the aorist, which is generally what we would call the past tense.

So, Paul was saying that believing in a past point in time would result in the future guarantee of being saved.

And I'm not sure why we're discussing David.

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Just to prove that saved people can commit the same horrible crimes as unsaved people.

What you have never shown from Scripture is any clear statement that salvation can be lost, returned, removed, revoked, damaged, etc.