Is the Old Law Obsolete?

timothyu · Jan 26, 2020

solid_core said:
I did not ask about Matthew or Paul, I asked if you have evidence that Jesus spoke Hebrew.

If He could read the scrolls in the synagogues then He must understand the language of the House of Israel in which they were written for all tribes of the House.

HARK! · Jan 26, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Jesus fulfilled the law and so is able to offer us Grace.

Let us look at this logically:

1 John 3:4 KJV — Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If sin is transgression of the law; and we are under no obligation to keep the law; then we cannot transgress the law. If there is no transgression of the law; then there is no sin. If there is no sin; then what need we of grace?

SkyWriting · Jan 26, 2020

HARK! said:
Let us look at this logically:

1 John 3:4 KJV — Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If sin is transgression of the law; and we are under no obligation to keep the law; then we cannot transgress the law. If there is no transgression of the law; then there is no sin. If there is no sin; then what need we of grace?

Correct.
I would suggest research on this rather than human logic, which is always a mess.

7 “Blessed are they whose lawless acts are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.” 9 Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness.

newton3005 · Jan 26, 2020

solid_core said:
Actually, Jesus did not speak Hebrew. He spoke Aramaic and Greek.

Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

What language is Eli? From Wikipedia: "Eli as a name can have two different meanings, both originating in the Hebrew Bible. Eli can be a masculine given name of Hebrew origin, from Biblical עֵלִי "ascent", spelled with the Hebrew letter ayin in the beginning, the name of Eli, the high priest in the Books of Samuel."

From the reading of Matthew 27:46, sounds like Jesus spoke Hebrew. I believe "lema sabachthani" is Hebrew also. I don't think I need to check.

BrotherD · Jan 26, 2020

expos4ever said:
I think I agree with your post. But what does it have to do with what I am claiming? Are you arguing this:

1. Before Christ, Israel was subject to the Law of Moses and Gentiles were not;
2. As of the cross, Gentiles have been merged into Israel;
3. Therefore, Gentiles should observe the Law of Moses.

I think such reasoning is flawed. Yes, Gentiles and Jews are now "one". But it certainly does not follow that we are all to continue doing the Law of Moses. Especially since I think it is clear from other texts that the Law of Moses has been retired.

Jesus said:
Matthew 5:18 KJV — For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus hasn't fulfilled all the requirements of the law, yet. He is performing his duties as High Priest in heaven. Every nation on earth has laws, why wouldn't the Creator of heaven and earth have laws as well.

1 John 2:6 KJV — He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 Peter 2:21 KJV — For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Christ followed the law and so should we.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 27, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Jesus fulfilled the law and so is able to offer us Grace.

Grace for what? For sin? Yes, sin is the transgression of the law...

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 27, 2020

solid_core said:
They are related but not the same language. In Jerusalem, they were for example unable to understand His "Eli Eli, lama sabachtani". They thought that "eli" means Eliah, but it means God.

It is the same in Hebrew...Eli Eli lamah azabtani from Psalm 22

SkyWriting · Jan 27, 2020

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Grace for what? For sin? Yes, sin is the transgression of the law...

The law was fulfilled by Jesus.
I'll see your one Jack and raise you seven.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

timothyu · Jan 27, 2020

SkyWriting said:
The law was fulfilled by Jesus.
I'll see your one Jack and raise you seven.

Which opened the door to the Kingdom and qualified Him as King. His job done. Ours remains .The Kingdom is available now. What is our choice? Kingdom or world of man? 'Others' or 'self'? Use the two thieves as examples. One was selfish and did not gain entrance. The other was selfless and did.

HARK! · Jan 27, 2020

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Grace for what? For sin? Yes, sin is the transgression of the law...

SkyWriting said:
The law was fulfilled by Jesus.

I wasn't aware that Yahshua was in need of grace. Please explain.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 27, 2020

Abraham obeyed Yahweh.

Those who are lawless, and never repent, are never forgiven.

Blessed are those <repentant ones> whose sins are covered.

Those who sin continually, without repentance, are put out of the assembly of ekklesia after appropriate warnings and still continued sinning. (like rejecting Paul, or Jesus)

SkyWriting said:
7 “Blessed are they whose lawless acts are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.” 9 Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness.

HARK! · Jan 27, 2020

solid_core said:
Ok, if you wish, Torah and Prophets were till John. Not sure what it changes against "Law and Prophets till John".

Then why Did Sha'ul say this not only long after Yochanan, but even Yahshua had departed?:

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 27, 2020

solid_core said:
There is no word "torah" in the New Testament, only "law".

Did you test, search, investigate this at all ?
A simple internet search for "TORAH" at a Bible search site reveals TORAH is more often in the New Testament(236 times) than in the Old Testament (174 times) !

Filter by:

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 28, 2020

SkyWriting said:
The law was fulfilled by Jesus.
I'll see your one Jack and raise you seven.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

You lost that hand. ALL of the above is from the OT Torah...
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 28, 2020

HARK! said:
I wasn't aware that Yahshua was in need of grace. Please explain.

not sure I understand your question...my point was what is His grace FOR.

HARK! · Jan 28, 2020

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
not sure I understand your question...my point was what is His grace FOR.

Sorry, the question was directed toward SkyWriting; as he responded to your post.

I included your post for his reference.

solid_core · Jan 28, 2020

HARK! said:
Then why Did Sha'ul say this not only long after Yochanan, but even Yahshua had departed?:

I do not understand your English.

HARK! · Jan 28, 2020

solid_core said:
I do not understand your English.

Then why Did Sha'ul (Paul) say this, not only long after Yochanan (John the Baptist), but even after Yahshua (Jesus) had departed? (left their bodies):

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 28, 2020

HARK! said:
Then why Did Sha'ul (Paul) say this, not only long after Yochanan (John the Baptist), but even after Yahshua (Jesus) had departed? (left their bodies):

oops. "left their bodies"? No, I don't think so. If you think so, quote the Scripture reference please, in context, with that same idea.

Jesus was ascended WITH His < transformed? > body. He did not leave it.

HARK! · Jan 28, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
oops. "left their bodies"? No, I don't think so. If you think so, quote the Scripture reference please, in context, with that same idea.

Jesus was ascended WITH His < transformed? > body. He did not leave it.

Matthew 14

So Herod ordered that what she asked for be done. 10 He sent soldiers to the prison to cut off John’s head. 11 And they brought it on a platter and gave it to the girl, and she took it to her mother. 12 John’s followers came and got his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.

1 Peter 3:18-19 New International Version (NIV)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,a]">[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

(CLV) Eph 4:9
Now the "He ascended," what is it except that He first descended also into the lower parts of the earth?

(CLV) Mt 12:40
For even as Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

(CLV) 2Co 5:8
yet we are encouraged, and are delighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Is the Old Law Obsolete?

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The Librarian

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Thus Saith The Lord

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

The Librarian

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שמע

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

שמע

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

שמע

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simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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