Daniel's 70th week

sovereigngrace · Jan 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Are you going to answer these simple questions?

sovereigngrace · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
Can a person blaspheme the Holy Spirit after the Last Day?

Answering questions with a question = avoidance.

Al Touthentop · Jan 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The consummation of the age is indeed the end of the world. It is the last day!

I have never seen the last day referenced as the end of the age. You'll have to show me that in scripture.

It is the end of time and the beginning of eternity. It is the end of sin and the beginning of the eternal state. It is the end of corruption and the beginning of perfection. It is the end of the curse and the beginning of glorification.

The Last Day I would agree is that. But I don't agree that this was ever referred to as the end of the age.

Al Touthentop · Jan 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Answering questions with a question = avoidance.

Now you've devolved into making accusations. I asked you the question because I showed in scripture that Jesus said that the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit would occur in the age to come and wouldn't be forgiven. I was hoping you'd consider the scripture and answer that question for yourself. I didn't expect you'd harden your mind to consideration and come back accusing.

sovereigngrace · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
I have never seen the last day referenced as the end of the age. You'll have to show me that in scripture.

It is real easy to piece this whole thing together. The detail that is attributed to the
end of the age is exactly the same as that attributed to the last day. It is the same climactic day. It is the day when Jesus comes at the end and judges both the righteous and the wicked.

Last day

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Christ did not rebuke this understanding of the last day. In fact, it was in complete agreement with what Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The righteous are resurrected! When does this happen? When Jesus Comes. This is clear and simple!

That is not all.

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

There you have it! The same day that the righteous are raised is the same day the wicked are judged.

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes.

The end of the age

It is not just that Scripture depicts the second coming as “the last day,” it is that it labels it also as “the end of the age/world.”

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus locates “the harvest” of both the wicked and the righteous at “the end of the aion or age.” We see that in this age the good and the bad grow together. But the age to come is not so. It is not open to the wicked. This agrees with the statement of Christ in Luke 20:34-36 which shows that one has to be qualified to inherit the age to come and the new earth: one has to be “accounted worthy to obtain that aion or age. The reason is: it is only for believers. This passage shows that it is in this age that “the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” This is talking about the perfect incorruptible glorified state. The wicked on the other hand are “cast … into a furnace of fire” where “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Here we see the final separation of the righteous and the wicked including the burning of those who practice lawlessness, and reward of those who belonged to Christ. In this context, “the end of the age” obviously refers to Christ’s glorious second coming. It cannot refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, as Preterists contend, since there was no separation of the righteous from the wicked, nor no final judgment for mankind then.

The same truth is also revealed by Christ in Matthew 13:47-50, in the parable of the net: “the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world (or aion or age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

The bringing in of the “net” here relates to the angels gathering the righteous and the wicked together for judgment. This assignment is notably not executed until the net “was full.” We can see here that the wicked and righteous are drawn in at the same time. The Christ-rejecter is judged, sentenced and eternally separated from the elect of God at “the end of the age.” The outcome for the wicked drawn in by God’s great net in this parable is horrendous as they are pictured “wailing (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth” or as it is rendered in the parable of the talents: “weeping (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth.” This is the time of final judgment for the rebel against God.

sovereigngrace · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
Now you've devolved into making accusations.

That is not so. I apologize if it came across that way.

So far you have avoided/ignored a wealth of detail supporting my argument. I believe that is unfair. I am again requesting you address those arguments please.

I asked you the question because I showed in scripture that Jesus said that the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit would occur in the age to come and wouldn't be forgiven. I was hoping you'd consider the scripture and answer that question for yourself. I didn't expect you'd harden your mind to consideration and come back accusing

I was actually waiting for you to put your cards on the table before I submitted this response. Nevertheless, I will go ahead.

Response

The persistent contrast of the New Testament is between this present temporal age and a future eternal age, which is to come.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:32, “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (or aion or age), neither in the ‘world to come’ (or mello or hereafter).”

This sober passage solemnly points to the eternal doom that the reprobate faces in the life to come for his rebellion. Basically, what our Lord is saying here is that ‘those whom speak against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven ‘in time or in eternity’. If the age to come was the millennial age (as Premils argue), then damnation would be limited to a certain time-frame (like our current age) – namely a thousand years’ period after the Coming of Christ. What is more, it too would be an evil age like our current age. This would totally contradiction Christ’s warning of the final and eternal nature of the judgment that follows His appearing. It would also contradict His promise of the perfecting of this earth when He comes in all His glory. Equally, for Preterists to argue that final justice is experienced in this current Gospel age (their “age to come”) is frankly ludicrous.

The fact is: this is a comprehensive description that covers the full gamut of man’s existence – now and forever. In short: there is no forgiveness attributed to the age to come for the wicked, only unforgiveness.

The parallel passage in Mark 3:28-29 makes it clear that the condemnation of those who reject Christ is unending in the age to come: “Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.”

The phrase “the world to come” in Matthew 12:32 equates to “eternal damnation” for the wicked in Mark 3:28-29. The Christ-rejecter experiences no forgiveness in this life and in the life to come. We are clearly looking at an unforgivable eternal sin. It is indeed “eternal damnation.”

Al Touthentop · Jan 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That is not so. I apologize if it came across that way.

So far you have avoided/ignored a wealth of detail supporting my argument. I believe that is unfair. I am again requesting you address those arguments please.

Unfair to quote scripture which doesn't reconcile with your interpretation?

Obviously there is more than one age spoken of in the bible. Jesus does often mention a future age which is after the day of Judgement. The Matthew passage does indicate that blasphemy of the holy spirit results in eternal condemnation. That is the main thrust I agree.

If you want to delineate all of history as having only two ages, earthly history and heaven, it makes no difference to the gospel message. But the bible is not universal in its treatment of ages as you suggest. And If I read that there are more than two ages, it makes no difference to the gospel. The plan of salvation is not hurt by either belief.

The term last days indicates something that is nearing its end. To say we're still in the last days of prophecy (Joel 2 for instance) is to imply that that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled and that's where I draw a line. There was an end to the old covenant. So I see that as the end of the last days spoken of in prophecy. We're obviously not in the age of heaven and we're not under the old covenant so we're in some sort of an age between the two that began with the church's establishment on the day of Pentecost and was prepared by the arrival of John the baptist. If you don't want to call it that, I don't care.

sovereigngrace · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
Unfair to quote scripture which doesn't reconcile with your interpretation?

Obviously there is more than one age spoken of in the bible. Jesus does often mention a future age which is after the day of Judgement. The Matthew passage does indicate that blasphemy of the holy spirit results in eternal condemnation. That is the main thrust I agree.

If you want to delineate all of history as having only two ages, earthly history and heaven, it makes no difference to the gospel message. But the bible is not universal in its treatment of ages as you suggest. And If I read that there are more than two ages, it makes no difference to the gospel. The plan of salvation is not hurt by either belief.

The term last days indicates something that is nearing its end. To say we're still in the last days of prophecy (Joel 2 for instance) is to imply that that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled and that's where I draw a line. There was an end to the old covenant. So I see that as the end of the last days spoken of in prophecy. We're obviously not in the age of heaven and we're not under the old covenant so we're in some sort of an age between the two that began with the church's establishment on the day of Pentecost and was prepared by the arrival of John the baptist. If you don't want to call it that, I don't care.

Sorry, according to Scripture there are only two ages. Old testament scripture is still being unfolded and will do it until Jesus comes again. The second coming is still part of prophetic scripture. And the same power that was at Pentecost is still working today. Praise the Lord!

sovereigngrace · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
Unfair to quote scripture which doesn't reconcile with your interpretation?

Obviously there is more than one age spoken of in the bible. Jesus does often mention a future age which is after the day of Judgement. The Matthew passage does indicate that blasphemy of the holy spirit results in eternal condemnation. That is the main thrust I agree.

If you want to delineate all of history as having only two ages, earthly history and heaven, it makes no difference to the gospel message. But the bible is not universal in its treatment of ages as you suggest. And If I read that there are more than two ages, it makes no difference to the gospel. The plan of salvation is not hurt by either belief.

The term last days indicates something that is nearing its end. To say we're still in the last days of prophecy (Joel 2 for instance) is to imply that that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled and that's where I draw a line. There was an end to the old covenant. So I see that as the end of the last days spoken of in prophecy. We're obviously not in the age of heaven and we're not under the old covenant so we're in some sort of an age between the two that began with the church's establishment on the day of Pentecost and was prepared by the arrival of John the baptist. If you don't want to call it that, I don't care.

Now, are you going to address the many scripture and points that I presented that show a climatic coming of Jesus and the introduction of the perfect state? Also, are you going to answer the questions that I listed?

mkgal1 · Jan 25, 2020

I wasn't sure how to attach a screen shot - but are you now responding to your own posts, SG? Post #281 looks as if you're arguing with your self.

Al Touthentop · Jan 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Now, are you going to address the many scripture and points that I presented that show a climatic coming of Jesus and the introduction of the perfect state? Also, are you going to answer the questions that I listed?

No. I'm not. You're engaging in a pointless dispute. I'm not obligated to answer your litmus test questions. None of this has any bearing on the gospel. Nobody is condemned if they don't see things exactly as you do on the ages question. You asserted that the bible teaches only two ages. Whether or not this is true, and scripture does indeed indicate that there could be more than two, one is not required to believe anything about this subject other than knowing that there is a last day of judgement and a new heavenly age.

How many ages is Paul indicating here? Do you think the Holy Spirit was causing him to write error?

Ephesians 2
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Douggg · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
The Last Day I would agree is that. But I don't agree that this was ever referred to as the end of the age.

Last day is end of the millennium.

End of the age is the beginning of the millennium, when Jesus brings the Kingdom of God to the be ruling kingdom over all kingdoms on the earth. And the end of Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the Great.

Latter days, latter years is the final years of the age of Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the Great dominion over the nations. It is the generation that will see Jesus return to earth.

Last days is the generation that will see Jesus return to earth. And when the rapture/resurrection will take place. Which we are living in the last days.

Al Touthentop · Jan 25, 2020

Douggg said:
Last day is end of the millennium.
End of the age is the beginning of the millennium, when Jesus brings the Kingdom of God to the be ruling kingdom over all kingdoms on the earth.

He has already done that. The scriptures are not even controversial about that.

Douggg · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
He has already done that. The scriptures are not even controversial about that.

That interpretation of yours does not correspond to reality, because Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking who he can destroy.

You have not factored in the destruction of Satan's mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great. Yet to happen. Satan has not been exposed that all of the kings of the earth can behold, see, him. Satan is not in chains in the bottomless pit.

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

sovereigngrace · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
No. I'm not. You're engaging in a pointless dispute. I'm not obligated to answer your litmus test questions. None of this has any bearing on the gospel. Nobody is condemned if they don't see things exactly as you do on the ages question. You asserted that the bible teaches only two ages. Whether or not this is true, and scripture does indeed indicate that there could be more than two, one is not required to believe anything about this subject other than knowing that there is a last day of judgement and a new heavenly age.

How many ages is Paul indicating here? Do you think the Holy Spirit was causing him to write error?

Ephesians 2
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Scripture does not contradict itself. There are only 2 ages recognized. When aion is used in a plural sense it actually refers to eternity. The reference simply says, speaking of God: “That in the ages (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”

This could be equally interpreted “the ongoing ages.” Even in English we use the same term to describe eternity - namley the aeons. In its context the clearly refers to eternity. The words aeon in Latin and aion in Greek can refer to this temporal age or to the impending eternal age that arrives at the Second Coming.

When used in the plural they refer to an extremely long period or the eternal. In geology the plural word refers to the longest time period possible. I through research of the original Greek will demonstrate that the aions (plural) that refer to the future relate to the eternal.

In the next chapter to Ephesians 2 in Ephesians 3:21 we see: “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages (genea or generations – plural), world (aion singular noun – Strong’s 165 without end (aion singular noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.” Ephesians 3:21 refers to the eternal state as “the age [of] the ages (or toú aioónos toón aioónoon)” or the age of eternity.”

Let us look at a number of (the many) inspired passages that show that the plural noun aion can equate to the eternal.

aion plural – Strong’s 165

Romans 11:36: “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.”

Romans 16:27: “To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165. Amen.”

2 Corinthians 11:31: “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165, knoweth that I lie not.”

Galatians 1:5: “To whom be glory for ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165 and ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165. Amen.”

Ephesians 3:11: “According to the eternal (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165) purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Philippians 4:20: “Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.”

1 Timothy 1:17: “Now unto the King eternal (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165), immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165) and ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.”

2 Timothy 4:18: “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165) and ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.”

Hebrews 13:8: “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165).”

1 Peter 4:11: “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165) and ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.”

1 Peter 5:11: “To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.”

Revelation 1:18: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore (aion plural noun – Strong’s 165), Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

The reality is, Ephesians 2:6 makes no mention of some other future age. The presentation of this passage as supposed evidence of another future age is untenable. There is not the slightest intimation of 2 future ages in this passage.

sovereigngrace · Jan 25, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
No. I'm not. You're engaging in a pointless dispute. I'm not obligated to answer your litmus test questions. None of this has any bearing on the gospel. Nobody is condemned if they don't see things exactly as you do on the ages question. You asserted that the bible teaches only two ages. Whether or not this is true, and scripture does indeed indicate that there could be more than two, one is not required to believe anything about this subject other than knowing that there is a last day of judgement and a new heavenly age.

How many ages is Paul indicating here? Do you think the Holy Spirit was causing him to write error?

Ephesians 2
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

I think it is only fair to expect you to answer my questions when I am answering yours.

When was/is sin eliminated?
When was/is the sinner eliminated?
When was/is death eliminated?
When was/is corruption eliminated?
When was/is Satan eliminated?
When was/is marriage eliminated?
When was/is perfect righteousness introduced?
When was/is peace and perfection finally introduced?
When was/is incorruption introduced
Are we still living in an "evil age" or not?
When does crying stop?
When does pain stop?
When does sorrow stop?
When does curse finish?
When was/is all rule, authority and power finally put down?

Al Touthentop · Jan 27, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I think it is only fair to expect you to answer my questions when I am answering yours

But you're not answering mine. How does this change the gospel?

"When used in the plural they refer to an extremely long period or the eternal."

As in more than one and as Paul uses it he indicates there are more than one in the future. How does this dispute affect the Gospel message? Does anyone go to hell for thinking there might be more than two ages?

sovereigngrace · Jan 27, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
But you're not answering mine. How does this change the gospel?

As in more than one and as Paul uses it he indicates there are more than one in the future. How does this dispute affect the Gospel message? Does anyone go to hell for thinking there might be more than two ages?

When have I said that?

I was simply trying to show you that the coming of the Lord concludes “this age” and ushers in “the end of the age.” The biblical dynamic between “this age” and “the age to come” is repeatedly shown to be that between time and eternity, corruption and incorruption, this current heavens and earth and the new heavens and new earth.

I presented strong biblical evidence to support my thesis but you failed to address it at all, choosing rather just to keep repeating what you believed. But personal opinion does not come into the argument; Scripture overrides that all the time.

Al Touthentop · Jan 29, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
When have I said that?

I was simply trying to show you that the coming of the Lord concludes “this age” and ushers in “the end of the age.” The biblical dynamic between “this age” and “the age to come” is repeatedly shown to be that between time and eternity, corruption and incorruption, this current heavens and earth and the new heavens and new earth.

But there was an end of the Jewish age. We know that because it was referenced as "last days" and other phrases. And we know that that age ended and that's what the prophecies were dealing with. By definition, that means a new age began when that one ended. But if you can't accept that, then we can just agree to disagree and you can stop hounding me with your litmus questions.

I presented strong biblical evidence to support my thesis but you failed to address it at all, choosing rather just to keep repeating what you believed. But personal opinion does not come into the argument; Scripture overrides that all the time.

You trotted out a bunch of scriptures talking about eternity as if they are the same thing as the end of a human age. They're not. The bible has no universal phrases that mean the same thing every time they're encountered.

sovereigngrace · Jan 30, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
But there was an end of the Jewish age.

There was an end to the old covenant - namely the cross. Where in Scripture does it say that "there was an end of the Jewish age"? Where does it even mention a "Jewish age"? It simply doesn't exist.

We know that because it was referenced as "last days" and other phrases. And we know that that age ended and that's what the prophecies were dealing with.

The last days are never limited to the Jews or to a "Jewish age." Where do you get that? The sacred text teaches the opposite! It relates to the Gospel going out to the nations (Isa 2 and Micah 4).

By definition, that means a new age began when that one ended. But if you can't accept that, then we can just agree to disagree and you can stop hounding me with your litmus questions.

As I have shown you, the change from old corrupt age to the new perfect age occurs at the second coming. You are yet to address all my biblical support demonstrating that.

You trotted out a bunch of scriptures talking about eternity as if they are the same thing as the end of a human age. They're not. The bible has no universal phrases that mean the same thing every time they're encountered.

I refer you back to the sacred text that you have not exegeted.

Daniel's 70th week

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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