LDS One Essence

Ironhold said:

The people who killed Joseph Smith had the choice not to.

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Smith did have a choice about the printing press.

John Taylor also testified:“Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving, drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time ‘Would any of you like to have this?’ Brother Joseph immediately replied, ‘Yes, give it to me,’ whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket. The pistol was a six-shooting revolver, of Allen’s patent; it belonged to me, and was one that I furnished to Brother Wheelock when he talked of going with me to the east, previous to our coming to Carthage” (History of the Church 7:100. See also The Gospel Kingdom, p.358).

When the mob approached the cell, Joseph fired the pepperbox pistol into the crowd, wounding three men (Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill, Carthage Conspiracy, the Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith).
4 Lesser-Known Facts About Joseph Smith’s Death
Final Moments at Carthage Jail and the Death of Joseph Smith – Mormonism Research Ministry

The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailer went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as also Brother Taylor and the doctor, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out. When at the top of the stairs some one below called him two or three times, and he went down.

Immediately there was a little rustling at the outer door of the jail, and a cry of surrender, and also a discharge of three or four firearms followed instantly. The doctor glanced an eye by the curtain of the window, and saw about a hundred armed men around the door. It is said that the guard elevated their firelocks, and boisterously threatening the mob discharged their fire-arms over their heads. The mob encircled the building, and some of them rushed by the guard up the flight of stairs, burst open the door, and began the work of death, while others fired in through the open windows.

In the meantime Joseph, Hyrum, and Elder Taylor had their coats off. Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter, Hyrum for his single barrel, Taylor for Markham's large hickory cane, and Dr. Richards for Taylor's cane. All sprang against the door, the balls whistled up the stairway, and in an instant one came through the door.

Joseph Smith, John Taylor and Dr. Richards sprang to the left of the door, and tried to knock aside the guns of the ruffians.

Hyrum was retreating back in front of the door and snapped his pistol, when a ball struck him in the left side of his nose, and he fell on his back on the floor saying, "I am a dead man!" As he fell on the floor another ball from the outside entered his left side, and passed through his body with such force that it completely broke to pieces the watch he wore in his vest pocket, and at the same instant another ball from the door grazed his breast, and entered his head by the throat; subsequently a fourth ball entered his left leg.

A shower of balls was pouring through all parts of the room, many of which lodged in the ceiling just above the head of Hyrum.

Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage, some barrels missing fire. Continual discharges of musketry came into the room. Elder Taylor continued parrying the guns until they had got them about half their length into the room, when he found that resistance was vain, and he attempted to jump out of the window, where a ball fired from within struck him on his left thigh, hitting the bone, and passing through to within half an inch of the other side. He fell on the window sill, when a ball fired from the outside struck his watch in his vest pocket, and threw him back into the room.

After he fell into the room he was hit by two more balls, one of them injuring his left wrist considerably, and the other entering at the side of the bone just below the left knee. He rolled under the bed, which was at the right of the window in the south-east corner of the room.

While he lay under the bed he was fired at several times from the stairway; one ball struck him on the left hip, which tore the flesh in a shocking manner, and large quantities of blood were scattered upon the wall and floor.

When Hyrum fell, Joseph exclaimed, "Oh dear, brother Hyrum!" and opening the door a few inches he discharged his six shooter in the stairway (as stated before), two or three barrels of which missed fire.
Joseph Smith's Death
Proof that Joseph Smith Died in a 2-way gun battle!
Joseph Smith: The Murder of the Mormon Prophet and Subsequent Trial – Illinois History & Lincoln Collections
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3961&context=byusq
The Martyrdom of Joseph Smith - Christian Research Institute

He is the way said:

Yes I do know what is written in the Bible. Jesus is in the express image of the Father:
(New Testament | Hebrews 1:3)

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus has a God:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus is our Lord and Master, God the Father is our God:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:6)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Father is greater than Jesus:

(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

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And yet the Father calls His Son both God and Lord:

"But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beyond Your companions.' And, 'You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands;'" - Hebrews 1:8-10

Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of the Father, is God. He is the eternal and everlasting God, uncreated, without beginning, through Whom all things were made, and for whom all things exist.

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," - Titus 2:13

Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God. For He was God before all things, and God after all things, Alpha and Omega, First and Last, the Beginning and the End. He is before and after all, and fills all things.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of Deity was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." - Colossians 1:15-20

And so the Church from all ages proclaims praise and honor to the Eternal and Living God, the Holy and Most Glorious Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God. For we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance.

Joining our song with the eternal hymn of heaven, Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come. And, indeed, with the whole of creation we sing


-CryptoLutheran

Isaiah 9:6

Ironhold said:

The people who killed Joseph Smith had the choice not to.

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True, but God knew they would. Just as we know that Jesus knew Peter would deny Him 3 times, though he had the choice to not do so.

Daniel Marsh said:

Smith did have a choice about the printing press.

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Contrary to popular belief, the 1st Amendment wouldn't firmly apply to state and local governments until a series of legal decisions in the early 1900s. Rather, Illinois state law allowed for the seizure of "nuisance" presses, and from what I understand the Nauvoo city council did indeed reference this law.

The issue was that somehow Joseph misunderstood the limits of the law, and so gave bad orders to the bailiff he tasked with handling the matter. Had it actually gone to court, it would have established legal precedent much sooner than the 1900s.

Proof that Joseph Smith Died in a 2-way gun battle!

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You yourself admitted that the mob fired first, fired blind, and killed Hyrum.

...And that it wasn't until after Hyrum was dead that Joseph fired back.

I know that this is a stock bit of propaganda that is commonly hurled against the church, but the whole "died in a gun battle!" nonsense is just that: nonsense.

Anyone and everyone with common sense can see it was an act of self defense, a desperate effort to keep the two people who were with him from being killed as well.

Ironhold said:

Contrary to popular belief, the 1st Amendment wouldn't firmly apply to state and local governments until a series of legal decisions in the early 1900s. Rather, Illinois state law allowed for the seizure of "nuisance" presses, and from what I understand the Nauvoo city council did indeed reference this law.

The issue was that someone Joseph misunderstood the limits of the law, and so gave bad orders to the bailiff he tasked with handling the matter. Had it actually gone to court, it would have established legal precedent much sooner than the 1900s.



You yourself admitted that the mob fired first, fired blind, and killed Hyrum.

...And that it wasn't until after Hyrum was dead that Joseph fired back.

I know that this is a stock bit of propaganda that is commonly hurled against the church, but the whole "died in a gun battle!" nonsense is just that: nonsense.

Anyone and everyone with common sense can see it was an act of self defense, a desperate effort to keep the two people who were with him from being killed as well.

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No martyr in the bible ever died trying to kill his attackers. All martyrs have died submitting to their attackers. sugar coat it all you want. It is not how martyrs meet their maker, Stephen didn't throw rocks back at the crowd.

Ironhold said:

Contrary to popular belief, the 1st Amendment wouldn't firmly apply to state and local governments until a series of legal decisions in the early 1900s. Rather, Illinois state law allowed for the seizure of "nuisance" presses, and from what I understand the Nauvoo city council did indeed reference this law.

The issue was that somehow Joseph misunderstood the limits of the law, and so gave bad orders to the bailiff he tasked with handling the matter. Had it actually gone to court, it would have established legal precedent much sooner than the 1900s.



You yourself admitted that the mob fired first, fired blind, and killed Hyrum.

...And that it wasn't until after Hyrum was dead that Joseph fired back.

I know that this is a stock bit of propaganda that is commonly hurled against the church, but the whole "died in a gun battle!" nonsense is just that: nonsense.

Anyone and everyone with common sense can see it was an act of self defense, a desperate effort to keep the two people who were with him from being killed as well.

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I was only quoting historical sources. The fact is Smith jumped at the offer of a six shooter which shows what?

Destroying a press is not the same as seizing. And, I am sure it would have to ruled as a problem by a court.

A Brief History of Newspapers in Illinois – Illinois Newspaper Project – U of I Library

Based on the history of Illinois Newspapers, your excuse for criminal behavior sounds silly.

history free press in the united states of america illinois - Google Search

Jefferson said, ""If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.""
Freedom of the press in the United States - Wikipedia

1735
New York journalist John Peter Zenger publishes editorials critical of the British colonial ruling establishment, prompting his arrest on charges of seditious libel. He is defended in court by Alexander Hamilton, who persuades the jury to throw out the charges.

1790
The First Amendment to the U.S. Bill of Rights states that "Congress shall make no law. . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press. . . "

1798
President John Adams signs the Alien and Sedition Acts, intended in part to silence journalists critical of his administration. The decision backfires; Adams loses to Thomas Jefferson in the 1800 presidential election and his Federalist Party never wins another national election.

1823
Utah passes a criminal libel law, allowing journalists to be prosecuted under the same sorts of charges used against Zenger in 1735. Other states soon follow suit. As of a 2005 report by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), 17 states still have criminal libel laws on the books.
Freedom of the Press in the United States


A Brief History of Newspapers in Illinois – Illinois Newspaper Project – U of I Library
American Newspapers, 1800-1860: An Introduction – History, Philosophy, and Newspaper Library – U of I Library
The history of newspapers in Illinois - Google Search

The claim of self defence does not fit. One does not discharge a firearm at random into a crowd. They wait for the attacker to be in the room.

I would expect them to barricade the room and escape.

When ever someone tried to stone Jesus he escaped. God sent an angel to get Peter out of jail.

Daniel Marsh said:

The President of the US is greater than I am, but we both have human nature.

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I see what you are saying and I agree. How do you get around the fact that God the Father is the God and Father of Jesus Christ?

ViaCrucis said:

And yet the Father calls His Son both God and Lord:

"But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beyond Your companions.' And, 'You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands;'" - Hebrews 1:8-10

Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of the Father, is God. He is the eternal and everlasting God, uncreated, without beginning, through Whom all things were made, and for whom all things exist.

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," - Titus 2:13

Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God. For He was God before all things, and God after all things, Alpha and Omega, First and Last, the Beginning and the End. He is before and after all, and fills all things.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of Deity was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." - Colossians 1:15-20

And so the Church from all ages proclaims praise and honor to the Eternal and Living God, the Holy and Most Glorious Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God. For we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance.

Joining our song with the eternal hymn of heaven, Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come. And, indeed, with the whole of creation we sing

-CryptoLutheran

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I didn't say that Jesus is not a God. However God the Father is Jesus' God and Father.

Daniel Marsh said:

The claim of self defence does not fit. One does not discharge a firearm at random into a crowd. They wait for the attacker to be in the room.

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They were still attacking with intent to kill not only Joseph Smith but everyone in the room. Would you defend your friends against a blood thirsty mob if you had the choice?

Daniel Marsh said:

The claim of self defence does not fit. One does not discharge a firearm at random into a crowd. They wait for the attacker to be in the room.

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The mob fired a mass volley, which is why Hyrum was hit with so many bullets.

Everyone was an attacker.

He is the way said:

I didn't say that Jesus is not a God. However God the Father is Jesus' God and Father.

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JESUS IS NOT A GOD---HE IS GOD!

mmksparbud said:

JESUS IS NOT A GOD---HE IS GOD!

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God the Father is the Father and God of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He is the way said:

God the Father is the Father and God of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

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And this is where you serve a different Jesus. Our Jesus was God with the Father before the incarnation and remained divine. He is still one with the Father in a way we can never be. Jesus, the Father, the Holy Ghost---ONE GOP! Anything else is a different God! In His humanity, Jesus calls His Father His God---
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

mmksparbud said:

And this is where you serve a different Jesus. Our Jesus was God with the Father before the incarnation and remained divine. He is still one with the Father in a way we can never be. Jesus, the Father, the Holy Ghost---ONE GOP! Anything else is a different God! In His humanity, Jesus calls His Father His God---
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

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One of my favorite scriptures. Yes Jesus did humble Himself and became obedient to the Father unto death. He said:

(New Testament | John 17:3 - 7)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

mmksparbud said:

And this is where you serve a different Jesus. Our Jesus was God with the Father before the incarnation and remained divine. He is still one with the Father in a way we can never be. Jesus, the Father, the Holy Ghost---ONE GOP! Anything else is a different God! In His humanity, Jesus calls His Father His God---
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

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Jesus tells us that we non-divine people can be one with God and Jesus.

John 17:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

How can divine and non-divine people be one in God and Jesus?

mmksparbud said:

JESUS IS NOT A GOD---HE IS GOD!

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He is not God the Father. He is 1 of 3, who call themselves God.

Daniel Marsh said:

I would expect them to barricade the room and escape.

When ever someone tried to stone Jesus he escaped. God sent an angel to get Peter out of jail.

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Peter was also taken, like Jesus and hung on a cross, by his enemies. There is a time when the prophets become martyrs. All 12 apostles of Jesus, except Judas died from the hands of their enemies. God did not offer them an escape in the end.