Which of the following people are saved?

Jamdoc said:

His quotes were an interpretation of those scriptures that to be saved you have to do works.

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THat is what you say, and have said,
but that is not at all what he said anywhere so far known.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

THat is what you say, and have said,
but that is not at all what he said anywhere so far known.

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The guy identifies as a conditional salvationist, that is, you can lose your salvation by sinning or not doing works. So to him, to be saved, you need works, and a sinless life.

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe many in the church today settle for a greasy form of grace that makes for an allowance for them to be secure in their grievous sin on some level. But God's plan of salvation does not work like that. It should be no surprise really. It is there in black and white on almost every page of the New Testament. Take Matthew 7:23. Those believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name were told to depart from Jesus because they worked iniquity or lawlessness. Jesus did not know them because they justified sin (See also 1 John 2:3-4, and 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. To hit a person over the head some more (if that is not enough), Jesus said if anyone does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). Still not enough? Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that everyone who does not hear (obeys) that prophet (JESUS), they will be destroyed. Over, and over, and over again. The Bible is warning men of God to live holy.

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Bible Highlighter said:

As much as I am strongly against OSAS and it’s related beliefs with a white hot passion, I have seen some Conditional Salvationists hate “Eternal Security” or a “Sin and Still Be Saved Doctrine” so much that they forget how to speak in love to others. I believe we should hate the belief, and the sin and we should love the soul of the one whom we disagree with.

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Bible Highlighter said:

We all believe in God’s grace. The difference between the Conditional Salvationist (who believes grievous sin can separate a believer from God) and the Belief Alone Salvationist is a matter of the kind fruit (or work) one is saved in.

For we are all going to do works.
Either one’s works are going to be good or evil. So...

In possessing God’s saving grace, is one saved with the kind of works that reflect obedience, holy living, and in having good works?

Or...

In possessing God’s saving grace, is one saved by the kind of works that reflect sin disobedience, not living holy, and in being fruitless and or being an reprobate unto every good work?

Which one do you think God would prefer seeing He is holy?

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Bible Highlighter said:

It is a free pass to sin. For do you believe you lose salvation when you sin? Do you believe the prodigal son was saved while he was spending his inheritance on prostitutes? Do you believe king David was saved during the moment in time when he committed adultery and murder?

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That's not Grace, and I'd like to point out the language "is one saved with the kind of works" and "is one saved by the kind of works".. works salvation.

Jamdoc said:

The guy identifies as a conditional salvationist, that is, you can lose your salvation by sinning or not doing works. So to him, to be saved, you need works, and a sinless life.

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Again, not accurately shown from his posts.

Do you think the warnings from the Creator, Yahweh, in His Word, are for no purpose then ? That you can just be (deleted/censored) and still be saved... (without being forgiven!? )

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Again, not accurately shown from his posts.

Do you think the warnings from the Creator, Yahweh, in His Word, are for no purpose then ? That you can just be (deleted/censored) and still be saved... (without being forgiven!? )

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No, not at all. You're looking at it as a binary thing of heaven or hell are the only consequences of sin, the only reward for works, the only outcome of salvation.
John 10, the parable of the good shepherd John 10:28-29 in particular. Need it in other terms than a parable? John 5:24 (note the future tense), John 6:37. Romans 8:38-39 is perhaps most powerful of all.
There is one thing that seems to erase your salvation once you have it, and that is removing words from the book of Revelation 22:19 Only thing that seems to suggest that if you were to edit Revelation to deceive people into believing a false prophecy, as a saved Christian, that you'd be struck out of the book of life. Now as to whether a saved Christian would do that, I doubt it.
So, what I believe, is that once you are saved by Grace, as undeserving as we are, it shows God's true goodness and mercy, that condemnation to hell is all but impossible. You've passed from that.
Your spirit is a new creature in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17 However you are not all new, your flesh is still the same. You didn't get your new glorified body yet. You won't get that until the second coming.1 Corinthians 15:42-44 Our flesh right now, is still corruption, it's still weak, it's still dishonorable. That is why we're not immune to sin, that is why we will still sin, Romans 7:14-17 note the present tense.
Because our flesh will still sin, there is more to it beyond our soul being saved. The flesh sins, the flesh will be scourged and chastised by God Hebrews 12:5-8 If you get saved, and backslide hard and live in sin, you might have your whole life fall apart, like the prodigal son of Luke 15, so that you hit rock bottom and realize what a dope you've been and come back to your Father. That happened to me. A conditional salvationist who claims that the holy spirit just left and abandoned me because I sinned, wouldn't have steered me back to the Father, I just would have kept living in sin and by their doctrine, been hellbound. That says my sin is more powerful than God's grace, which sounds kind of ridiculous when you think of it that way. I am THANKFUL that my backslide didn't result in a permanent separation, that I WAS corrected to come back to the Lord. I am THANKFUL that the Lord decided to punish my life on THIS earth in THIS flesh that is temporary, rather than letting me go completely where my punishment would be ETERNAL.
On the flip side, doing works and being obedient earns you rewards, blessings on earth, and greater rewards in the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 6:20 shows this, Matthew 25:21 shows this, Matthew 16:27 shows this. Someone who didn't backslide like me, who has done great works for God that I have not done, that now I fear I can't do. They're going to receive more blessings, and more reward than I will, maybe I'll be "the least in heaven" I don't know.

My biggest point why I stress so hard about works salvation or faith+works salvation is that it leads you away from the dependency on Christ's finished work on the Cross. It starts putting emphasis on you and less on Christ, and I firmly believe that without putting ALL of your faith in Christ, you won't make it. I still agree that God does command us to obey Him, God still commands us to do works, to witness and give testimony. It's out of love for Him first and foremost, it will give us greater rewards when we come to His kingdom forever and ever, it avoids punishment of even the flesh, and lastly but almost as important as just doing it out of Love for your Savior, it will make you a better witness to get other people saved.
Tell me who makes a better witness, someone who tries their best to walk in the spirit every single day, fleeing sin, fearing and loving God, who does great works, in church multiple times a week, studying his bible every day, knocking on doors as often as he can to preach the gospel...
Or someone who is a backslidden Christian who is an alcoholic, walks in the flesh, fails every job and relationship he's in, never reads his bible, never goes to church, and when he tries to preach the gospel he gets stumped by simple questions because he can't remember enough scripture to even know where to begin to look for an answer?
That's one of my most important motivations right now, in studying the bible daily, I can't go door to door, but I do talk to people, my family isn't saved, many friends aren't saved, and I don't have faith in myself right now to be a good witness so I want to improve to be a better witness so they might believe me when I say I believe, and come to Christ. I'm not worried about myself going to hell if I can't make myself a good enough witness to produce fruit and get people saved. I put my faith in Jesus to save me. But I am worried about them, and I am worried about being useless to my Father.

A_Thinker said:

So you're willing to directly dispute Jesus words ?

I think that we're done here ...

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Jesus did not say that this was the only unforgivable sin. He did not say that there is only one. These are words you have to add to Scripture to make it so. The Bible itself testifies to other kinds. All you have to do is read these other verses and believe them. Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 do say that a person never even had their names in the book of life because they worshiped the beast. How do you interpret these verses? Do you just write them off because they do not align with your view on what Jesus said?

bling said:

Yes, the president is offering a free unconditional undeserved pardon, but the criminal has to humbly accept the free unconditional undeserved pardon as it was given as pure charity. Humans will do almost anything to avoid “accepting” pure charity to the point the person will say: “I did not accept it but it was thrust upon me, God for some reason wanted me, so no acceptance on my part needed.” We could look at Matt. 18 to understand how forgiveness works.

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Wow. You really believe the parable? So okay. Widespread chaos would be the result of the president pardoning criminals and their future crimes. Many (if not most) will continue to do evil and treat the president's pardon as a license to sin. People would look at the president as being immoral if he did that because you would not be able to walk outside in peace like you once did because some crazy guy who raped, and murdered would be able to kill you and get away with it. No standard of morality would be upheld and it's okay he rapes and murders people because the president gave him a pardon. Yeah, if you want to live in a world like that, then by all means.

Jamdoc said:

Okay if he says it's the holy spirit that saves you but you only have the holy spirit if you're not sinning and doing works, then what's he saying is saving you?
In other words, if you say it's grace that saves you but you have to earn that grace through leading a sinless life and doing works, that's no longer grace.

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Well, I did not say that all sins lead to spiritual death. Not all commands are tied with warnings of hellfire. While a Christian is to seek to obey the Lord Jesus and His followers in all things, we know things like Matthew 5:11-12 are not attached with warnings of hellfire if we fail to not always do such a command. But things like in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8 are the kinds of sins that can lead to spiritual death for the believer if they do not confess and forsake such sins in this life. The whole point of the Sanctification Process is to crucify the affections and lusts, and to walk in newness of life and to be fruitful for our Lord. Belief Alone-ism is simply a license to sin under God's grace. Some may protest otherwise, but when push comes to shove, they preach a double message when it comes to living holy.

Jamdoc said:

and Romans 4:5 is also scripture. Ephesians 2:8-9 are also scripture.

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Romans 4:4-5 is in reference to "Works Alone Salvationism" by the Old Law (without God's grace) and it is in context to the Justification Process when a person first comes to the Lord to be saved for the first time. This process does continue on into the life of the believer. Paul is warning against the Jewish ways and "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which said that you had to first be saved by being circumcised in order to be saved) (To see this heresy described in more detail, see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul said to the Galatian church, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). Skip down to verse 4 and it talks about how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). Circumcision was a part of the Old Law, and not the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His apostles. Also, if one seeks to be justified by "Law Alone" and there is no grace, of course one would be fallen from grace because there would be no grace in the equation like 1 John 1:9, and Luke 18:9-14.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is also referring to the Justification Process of salvation.
Ephesians 2:10 alludes to the Sanctification Process but it is more fully described in other places in Scripture. Sanctification does not contradict Justification because it happens afterwards, and it is a work of God done through the believer.

Ephesians 2:9 is a man directed work because they are the kind of works a person would boast in themselves in doing. A person who believes we are saved by "Works Alone Salvationism" (and no Grace) is going to boast in themselves and not in God.

Ephesians 2:10 are God directed works done through the believer after they are saved by God's grace. For we are created unto Christ Jesus for these kinds of works. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). Philippians 2:13 says that it is God does the good work through us.

You said:

Jesus, who said in John 6:28-29 that the "work" of God was to believe on Him who He hath sent. That was IT, that was the only works that Jesus said.

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No. John 6:28-29 is not the only works Jesus required of us.

Jesus said:

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).


We also learn of the works that Jesus requires of us in Luke 10:25-28, too.

”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

Jesus also said:

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

Jesus says that those who have done good will be a part of the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil will be a part of the resurrection of damnation.

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

To add to this point, Jesus says:

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

Belief Alone Proponents don't believe in doing his commandments so as to gain right to the tree of life. Belief Alone Proponents do not realize that outside the gates of the city are sinners. Yet, many in the "Belief Alone" camp wave their falsely interpreted banner flags on 1 John 1:8, and Romans 3:23 out of context and glory in that they are sinners (present tense) saved by God's grace. Yet, Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

You said:

James can't contradict Paul. James also can't contradict. How do we reconcile this?
Obviously it will have to depend on interpretations because on the surface they appear to be saying contradicting things.
But they aren't contradicting, because the book of James is addressed to the saved, he refers to them over and over as "Bretheren". That is, bretheren in Christ, Christians, people who are already saved from condemnation in hell.

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Your answer really does not resolve the problem. James says in James 2:24 that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James says in James 2:17 that faith without works is dead. Your answer simply sidesteps the issue and does not really provide a solution. How exactly is faith without works dead in your view? It simply cannot be true in your belief. No real answer can be given. Well, OSAS folk do think it is in reference to works done before men, and not God, but this interpretation does not work because James says this:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14).

James also is saying that this faith is towards Jesus and not towards men.

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons." (James 2:1).

So how do we reconcile Paul (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5) (Romans 4:2-5) with James (James 2:17-19) (James 2:24)?

Simple. Paul was referring to the "Justification Process" of salvation (Which is a process of salvation that is like a gift (Note: Gifts are received one time) and based upon God's mercy, i.e. Initial Salvation, and Foundational Salvation; A process of salvation that is without Man Directed Works and based on God's grace by faith). James is referring to the "Sanctification Process" via by faith. James says in James 2:18, "...someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James is referring to how God does the good work in you. So any or all good we do is the Lord working through us to put away grievous sin, and to do good works (like spreading the gospel, helping the poor, and loving your enemy, etc.). James is concerned with what happens after one is saved by God's grace (or by the "Justification Process").

Both of these processes of salvation are the works of God (Including Sanctification). For its why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10).

You said:

Again I offer Hebrews 12 and 1 Corinthians 5, which talk about the flesh being punished for sin but the soul still being with God.

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When Hebrews 12 talks about chastening of sin, this is with the intended purpose of correction so as to walk uprightly and to overcome grievous sin. Belief Alone Proponents usually mock the idea of overcoming sin and that we will always sin in this life as per a wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8. They will always be sinners (present tense) saved by God's grace, and not saints. You cannot be a sinning saint. It is a contradiction in terms. Chastening only works if there is reformation or change made in the person. Bastards are not corrected or chastened because they do not desire any real true correction or change of life really. They will just continue to glory in what sins they like and they will serve two masters (Both God and sin). But Jesus says we cannot serve two masters. To give you an example of chastening: Imagine a dog owner who notices that their dog went poop on their nice white carpets. The dog owner could chasten the animal by yelling and lightly smacking him. If the dog does not repeat the transgression it has been chastened or corrected. But in your view where a believer never really overcomes sin in this life, chastening makes no sense. It would be like a dog owner who keeps yelling and hitting their dog over, and over despite the dog pooping on his carpets because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (because it is sick). The dog owner would be unfair for doing this because the dog cannot help itself. It cannot control its pooping function. So the master is chastening the poor animal unfairly. Chastening in this sense does not really work. It does not work to fit your view of Soteriology (Because you believe that a Christian can sin and still be saved on some level). No real correction is ever needed.

As for your wrong interpretation on 1 Corinthians 5:5:

Again, this chastening was to reform the guy who committed forncation.

Paul also says in the next chapter,

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Jamdoc said:

The guy identifies as a conditional salvationist, that is, you can lose your salvation by sinning or not doing works. So to him, to be saved, you need works, and a sinless life.

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Well, while Christians should seek to be obedient in all things, the part that you say here about how a believer needs to live a sinless life in order to be saved is not exactly true. Not all sin is the same. 1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin that does not lead to death. Obviously going over the speed limit by 5mph, or not taking your trash out on time is not the same as murder, adultery, and theft, etc. (For things like: murder, adultery, and theft are clearly described in the Bible as the kinds of sins that will lead to condemnation by God). Granted, we should strive to obey God in even what we believe to be the minor things in this life, but the point here is that we are not condemned for faults of character and or minor transgressions.

As for the rest of what you say:

Well, I am proud of the other things you say of me because that is what the Bible plainly teaches. You have to re-write Scripture in many places in order for a "Grievous sin and saved" type belief to work. The Bible condemns this kind of wrong belief. The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). Those who worked iniquity or sin were told by Jesus to depart from Him (Matthew 7:23). What is the context? Jesus says that anyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says a person can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4). We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

Bible Highlighter said:

Wow. You really believe the parable? So okay. Widespread chaos would be the result of the president pardoning criminals and their future crimes. Many (if not most) will continue to do evil and treat the president's pardon as a license to sin. People would look at the president as being immoral if he did that because you would not be able to walk outside in peace like you once did because some crazy guy who raped, and murdered would be able to kill you and get away with it. No standard of morality would be upheld and it's okay he rapes and murders people because the president gave him a pardon. Yeah, if you want to live in a world like that, then by all means.

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I believe all of Jesus’ parables.

I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.

This parable is not explained well by many commentaries.

Is accepting forgiveness as pure charity required to complete the transaction?

What part does man play in his salvation?

How can a person be forgiven by God and still owe God what God forgave?

Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

This Parable will then come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.

As you asked: “ What keeps people from taking advantage of God and in this case you”?

So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?

I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:



The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer, so is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asking to “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”?

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?



Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.

Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).



I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?





Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:

1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?

2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?

3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?

4. The wicked servant is a sinner?

5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?

6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?

7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?

If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?

bling said:

I believe all of Jesus’ parables.

I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.

This parable is not explained well by many commentaries.

Is accepting forgiveness as pure charity required to complete the transaction?

What part does man play in his salvation?

How can a person be forgiven by God and still owe God what God forgave?

Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

This Parable will then come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.

As you asked: “ What keeps people from taking advantage of God and in this case you”?

So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?

I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:



The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer, so is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asking to “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”?

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?



Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.

Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).



I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?





Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:

1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?

2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?

3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?

4. The wicked servant is a sinner?

5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?

6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?

7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?

If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?

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You are overcomplicating it. You are interjecting biased opinions of your false view that "Future sin is forgiven for a believer" or "Unconditional Forgiveness" into the "Parable of the Unforgiving Servant" (Matthew 18:21-35) when the parable is not teaching such a thing. The point of the parable here is simple. It is saying the same thing as Matthew 6:15.

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).

The parable ends with this point.

"Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." (Matthew 18:33-35).

Meaning: If we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven by God the Father. In other words, we will not be saved or have our own sins forgiven if we refuse to forgive others. It is conditional. You have to forgive in order to be forgiven (or to have continued salvation).

bling said:

I believe all of Jesus’ parables.

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I was referring to the parable I created (i.e. the President setting free criminals and pardoning them of their future crimes). What is disturbing is that you did not appear to not have a problem with this scenario. Surely you would not like it if you lived in a world where murders, thieves, rapists would roam free to harm you and they would not be punished for such crimes. Ah, but the president pardoned them. Good for him. He will have to give an account to God one day if he did that.

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, I did not say that all sins lead to spiritual death. Not all commands are tied with warnings of hellfire. While a Christian is to seek to obey the Lord Jesus and His followers in all things, we know things like Matthew 5:11-12 are not attached with warnings of hellfire if we fail to not always do such a command. But things like in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8 are the kinds of sins that can lead to spiritual death for the believer if they do not confess and forsake such sins in this life. The whole point of the Sanctification Process is to crucify the affections and lusts, and to walk in newness of life and to be fruitful for our Lord. Belief Alone-ism is simply a license to sin under God's grace. Some may protest otherwise, but when push comes to shove, they preach a double message when it comes to living holy.

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How much "sanctification process" did the thief next to Jesus do at Cavalry? Cause only thing I read was admitting he was a sinner and putting faith in Jesus.

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, while Christians should seek to be obedient in all things, the part that you say here about how a believer needs to live a sinless life in order to be saved is not exactly true. Not all sin is the same. 1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin that does not lead to death. Obviously going over the speed limit by 5mph, or not taking your trash out on time is not the same as murder, adultery, and theft, etc. (For things like: murder, adultery, and theft are clearly described in the Bible as the kinds of sins that will lead to condemnation by God). Granted, we should strive to obey God in even what we believe to be the minor things in this life, but the point here is that we are not condemned for faults of character and or minor transgressions.

As for the rest of what you say:

Well, I am proud of the other things you say of me because that is what the Bible plainly teaches. You have to re-write Scripture in many places in order for a "Grievous sin and saved" type belief to work. The Bible condemns this kind of wrong belief. The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). Those who worked iniquity or sin were told by Jesus to depart from Him (Matthew 7:23). What is the context? Jesus says that anyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says a person can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4). We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

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You use Galatians 5:4 which is about trying to "earn" grace through obedience to the law... as a defense to how you have to be obedience to the law to "earn" grace.
Grace is unearned. Otherwise it's not grace. Blessings are earned, rewards are earned, salvation is grace, salvation is free.

Bible Highlighter said:

You are overcomplicating it. You are interjecting biased opinions of your false view that "Future sin is forgiven for a believer" or "Unconditional Forgiveness" into the "Parable of the Unforgiving Servant" (Matthew 18:21-35) when the parable is not teaching such a thing. The point of the parable here is simple. It is saying the same thing as Matthew 6:15.

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).

The parable ends with this point.

"Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." (Matthew 18:33-35).

Meaning: If we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven by God the Father. In other words, we will not be saved or have our own sins forgiven if we refuse to forgive others. It is conditional. You have to forgive in order to be forgiven (or to have continued salvation).

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Matt. 18: 21-35 for the most part in commentaries goes unexplained with the authors only saying what it is not saying and not what all it teaches.

I agree it is simple to understand if you do not come with a lot of baggage (preconceived ideas from human doctrine).

All scripture must be interpreted in light of all other scripture.

The parable is not a one sentence statement, so is Christ misleading us by what all He said and showed about this servant?

You just cannot take one sentence out of a parable which you agree with and through everything else out, the whole parable is true about the Kingdom and is descriptive of real people and God.

To “Lovingly forgive others” you first have to correctly accept God’s forgiveness (as Jesus taught: “He who is forgiven much Loves much.”)

You have been upset with the notion of “God (the president) pardoning every sin”, just like it upset the apostles for them to have to forgive their brother 7times 70. The question arising (as you pointed out): “What is keeping us (or God) from being taken advantage” needing forgiveness after forgiveness with no real repenting.

Matt. 18: 21-35 answers that question. God can forgive without forgiveness taking place since the person being forgiven must accept that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity. The same goes for us: If we truly forgive correctly (unconditionally/ unselfishly) as pure charity and the person does not humbly accept our charity as charity, then forgiveness did not take place, but it is not our fault. This can be seen in the fact they do not have a deep Love for us, others and God. They really still owe us, which will have to be explained and some tough Love might have to be shown. Our brother might not like the idea of taking charity of their debt being truly forgiven.

Do you reject some of the teachings of Christ, because Christ did not waist His breath telling the whole parable.

Bible Highlighter said:

I was referring to the parable I created (i.e. the President setting free criminals and pardoning them of their future crimes). What is disturbing is that you did not appear to not have a problem with this scenario. Surely you would not like it if you lived in a world where murders, thieves, rapists would roam free to harm you and they would not be punished for such crimes. Ah, but the president pardoned them. Good for him. He will have to give an account to God one day if he did that.

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Your "parable" is very much like the first part of Christ's parable in Matt. 18. The Master forgave an unbelievable huge debt like the president pardoning an unbelievable huge amount of crime. Both the servant and these criminals do not Love the Master, president and subjects with an unbelievable huge Love. Neither the criminal or servant had Loved, the master, the president and all their subjects, so they did not accept the President's pardon or the Master's forgiveness as pure charity, which means forgiveness of their crimes or debt were not forgiven/ forgiveness did not take place. They were not forgiven is shown in Christ's parable, but not your parable.

Jamdoc said:

How much "sanctification process" did the thief next to Jesus do at Cavalry? Cause only thing I read was admitting he was a sinner and putting faith in Jesus.

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As Jesus taught us, put the will of the Father first which is love all as self. One thief representing traditional adversarial man was selfish and wanted to be saved. The other was selfless as God commands and didn't just admit his guilt but declared Jesus' innocence, saying they deserved to be punished but He not. Just as Jesus taught in His Gospel of the Kingdom. Selfless over self. By living as Jesus commanded he found himself a place in God's Kingdom. The other self serving thief did not.

timothyu said:

As Jesus taught us, put the will of the Father first which is love all as self. One thief representing traditional adversarial man was selfish and wanted to be saved. The other was selfless as God commands and didn't just admit his guilt but declared Jesus' innocence, saying they deserved to be punished but He not. Just as Jesus taught in His Gospel of the Kingdom. Selfless over self. By living as Jesus commanded he found himself a place in God's Kingdom. The other self serving thief did not.

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Well yeah, but it sounds like the structure of prayers people say when they first turn to Jesus. Admission of sin and acknowledgement that they deserve death for their sins, belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and asking Jesus to be his savior, even if he didn't quite uses those terms, nor was he aware that Jesus was about to take his sins and die for him. But the heart was there. Acknowledging that Jesus was sinless and dying next to sinners was pretty close to the mark even if he didn't realize this substitution of the blood of the lamb of God as the perfect sin offering for atonement. He put his faith in Jesus and that was enough. Right after he spoke the words Jesus promised him they'd be in paradise together.

Jamdoc said:

Right after he spoke the words Jesus promised him they'd be in paradise together.

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Yes because imo, he did what Jesus taught, put others before self. A simple commandment and a simple way of life. Religion blows that all out of proportion.

bling said:

Your "parable" is very much like the first part of Christ's parable in Matt. 18. The Master forgave an unbelievable huge debt like the president pardoning an unbelievable huge amount of crime. Both the servant and these criminals do not Love the Master, president and subjects with an unbelievable huge Love. Neither the criminal or servant had Loved, the master, the president and all their subjects, so they did not accept the President's pardon or the Master's forgiveness as pure charity, which means forgiveness of their crimes or debt were not forgiven/ forgiveness did not take place. They were not forgiven is shown in Christ's parable, but not your parable.

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I am in shock that you believe my parable for OSAS or a Secure in One’s Grievous Sin Type Version of Salvation has anything to do with Christ’s parable. They are in no way related.

I cannot teach you basic morality.
Only God can.