Was there a “before” time, and if so, how can we possibly comprehend it

GaveMeJoy · Jan 25, 2020

The question “how long did God exist before he created the universe?” is self defeating, because “how long” is a measurement humans use to understand time, and sequencing, two concepts that were established by God, at creation. There was no “before” before LOL. I Know it sounds ridiculous to our brains and full disclaimer my analogy will be TRASH and not original but I’m going to give it a shot...

Gravity is a concept that human beings knew nothing about for Thousands for the Noah people folks (or millions for the monkey people folks). People walked around on earth every day being literally pushed onto the planet by an unseen, unfelt, concept they literally had zero frame of reference for. In the last century/centuries scientists slowly, painstakingly “caught up to” the concept and discovered it, to the point where actual human beings have experienced the absence of gravity completely. Imagine if there were online forums 1,000 years ago what types of conversations regarding the concept of why we fall back down when we jump up would have looked like? I think they would be very similar to the discussion of time now.

I’m not saying human beings are going to build time machines, but is it really a stretch to imagine that through continued scientific study that human beings wouldn’t make similar advancements in their understanding of another concept God established, in time?
I mean, when I was a kid phones had cords and there wasn’t such thing as the internet. And that’s only 25 years ago. There are entire areas of scientific study in this area...

With that analogy in mind, I think it’s easier to understand what we don’t understand regarding time. Time and sequencing is a way our brains understand Something that God created in the beginning. There was no “before” creation, there just “was” and then time came into existence.

I wish there was an emoji for mind blown in this forum.

You may now commence the obligatory arguing, snark and quote Lulz

Gottservant · Jan 25, 2020

Wow.

What a seriously interesting thought - not just the God part, but the "how long"?

I think the answer is something like "let me ask you a question: how much time did God want, in the end?"

If God wanted a lot of time, with His family - even an eternity - it comes down to how He defined eternity.

Far be it for me to refuse closure, with my rhetoric - I point out that technically it is not possible to out "wait" God (so an answer to your question is possible, because it cannot be that God has not waited long enough for you to hear it!)

Aussie Pete · Jan 25, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
The question “how long did God exist before he created the universe?” is self defeating, because “how long” is a measurement humans use to understand time, and sequencing, two concepts that were established by God, at creation. There was no “before” before LOL. I Know it sounds ridiculous to our brains and full disclaimer my analogy will be TRASH and not original but I’m going to give it a shot...

Gravity is a concept that human beings knew nothing about for Thousands for the Noah people folks (or millions for the monkey people folks). People walked around on earth every day being literally pushed onto the planet by an unseen, unfelt, concept they literally had zero frame of reference for. In the last century/centuries scientists slowly, painstakingly “caught up to” the concept and discovered it, to the point where actual human beings have experienced the absence of gravity completely. Imagine if there were online forums 1,000 years ago what types of conversations regarding the concept of why we fall back down when we jump up would have looked like? I think they would be very similar to the discussion of time now.

I’m not saying human beings are going to build time machines, but is it really a stretch to imagine that through continued scientific study that human beings wouldn’t make similar advancements in their understanding of another concept God established, in time?
I mean, when I was a kid phones had cords and there wasn’t such thing as the internet. And that’s only 25 years ago. There are entire areas of scientific study in this area...

With that analogy in mind, I think it’s easier to understand what we don’t understand regarding time. Time and sequencing is a way our brains understand Something that God created in the beginning. There was no “before” creation, there just “was” and then time came into existence.

I wish there was an emoji for mind blown in this forum.

You may now commence the obligatory arguing, snark and quote Lulz

Time is God's creation. Time as we know it will cease with the new heavens and new earth. Bring it on!

Tone · Jan 25, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
they literally had zero frame of reference for

...that we know of...

Gottservant · Jan 25, 2020

How interesting is this thread!

Mathetes66 · Jan 25, 2020

That's a mind boggling, mind blowing thought: God is eternal.

Isaiah 43:13 Indeed before the day was (brought into existence), I AM (He) & there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work & who can reverse it?

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, or You brought forth the earth and world, from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Isaiah 48:16 Come near to Me & listen to this: "From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from THE TIME it took place, I WAS THERE." And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, accompanied by His Spirit.

Psalm 93:2 Your throne, O LORD, has been firm from the beginning & You existed before time began.

Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba & there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal God.

Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever & ever: the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a righteous sceptre.

Titus 1:2 ...In the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the high & exalted One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high & holy place, with him also who is of a contrite & humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble & to revive the heart of the contrite.

Isaiah 66:2 Has not My hand made all these things? And so they came into being, declares the LORD. This is the one I will esteem: he who is humble & contrite in spirit, who trembles at My word.

Deut 33:27 The everlasting God is a refuge & underneath you are His eternal arms...

Habakkuk 1:12 Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One?

Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He never grows faint or weary; His understanding is beyond searching out.

SkyWriting · Jan 25, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
The question “how long did God exist before he created the universe?” is self defeating, because “how long” is a measurement humans use to understand time, and sequencing, two concepts that were established by God, at creation.

This defines the "problem" of Free Will people complain about constantly.

Waaa..Waaaa...
How can I have a choyce if God already knows my choice and wrote my naym in dat big book of his? Waaa Waaa Waaaaaaaa!

eleos1954 · Jan 25, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
The question “how long did God exist before he created the universe?” is self defeating, because “how long” is a measurement humans use to understand time, and sequencing, two concepts that were established by God, at creation. There was no “before” before LOL. I Know it sounds ridiculous to our brains and full disclaimer my analogy will be TRASH and not original but I’m going to give it a shot...

Gravity is a concept that human beings knew nothing about for Thousands for the Noah people folks (or millions for the monkey people folks). People walked around on earth every day being literally pushed onto the planet by an unseen, unfelt, concept they literally had zero frame of reference for. In the last century/centuries scientists slowly, painstakingly “caught up to” the concept and discovered it, to the point where actual human beings have experienced the absence of gravity completely. Imagine if there were online forums 1,000 years ago what types of conversations regarding the concept of why we fall back down when we jump up would have looked like? I think they would be very similar to the discussion of time now.

I’m not saying human beings are going to build time machines, but is it really a stretch to imagine that through continued scientific study that human beings wouldn’t make similar advancements in their understanding of another concept God established, in time?
I mean, when I was a kid phones had cords and there wasn’t such thing as the internet. And that’s only 25 years ago. There are entire areas of scientific study in this area...

With that analogy in mind, I think it’s easier to understand what we don’t understand regarding time. Time and sequencing is a way our brains understand Something that God created in the beginning. There was no “before” creation, there just “was” and then time came into existence.

I wish there was an emoji for mind blown in this forum.

You may now commence the obligatory arguing, snark and quote Lulz

Our life on earth is temporal and subject to time because of sin. Because of this we are constrained by time.

God and His heavenly kingdom is eternal (everlasting) and not constrained by time (there is no sin there).

The very definition of eternity is .... timelessness.

Once death is completely removed (when God re-creates or restores everything at the very end) we will experience timelessness .... AMEN!

GaveMeJoy · Jan 25, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Our life on earth is temporal and subject to time because of sin. Because of this we are constrained by time.

God and His heavenly kingdom is eternal (everlasting) and not constrained by time (there is no sin there).

The very definition of eternity is .... timelessness.

Once death is completely removed (when God re-creates or restores everything at the very end) we will experience timelessness .... AMEN!

So cool! I disagree that time is related to sin tho. It was part of creation when God separated the light and the darkness, also the angels must have been created with some form of time concept because he was perfect then after that (indicating a sequence of events) he began to want to be like God. Adam and even experienced human earthly days with rise of the sun and setting of the sun, and named the animals which took time. So i actually think time is connected to our physical bodies and earthly creation not necessarily the fall. Just my opinion

eleos1954 · Jan 25, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
So cool! I disagree that time is related to sin tho. It was part of creation when God separated the light and the darkness, also the angels must have been created with some form of time concept because he was perfect then after that (indicating a sequence of events) he began to want to be like God. Adam and even experienced human earthly days with rise of the sun and setting of the sun, and named the animals which took time. So i actually think time is connected to our physical bodies and earthly creation not necessarily the fall. Just my opinion

Man was not originally created to die ... therefore not created in relation to time. Death ends time ... that is ... death negates the possibility of eternal life/time.

Romans 5:12

Berean Study Bible
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

It's not that time does not exist .... rather ... it is whether time is continuous (eternal) time never ending ... or time ends with death (that came from sin ... such as it is now). Death ends time.

That's what Jesus is all about .... He defeated death and provided the way into eternal/ everlasting continuous time/life ... which is yet to come.

1st Corinthians 15:26

Berean Study Bible
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Revelation 21:4

4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

When death is no more (when we go to be with the Lord) ... we move into never ending life ... time never ending (continuous/eternal time) with the Lord.

This is why it is necessary for our earth to be destroyed in the very end ... death to be destroyed forever and the end of sin that caused it. He then makes everything anew, no sin ... no death ... Eden restored before sin entered the world and caused death.

Gottservant · Jan 26, 2020

I sort of get the idea that God shaped time, out of space.

How did He create space? He let its vacuum increase.

How did He increase vacuum? With His Word.

(I never did buy that the big bang was the absolute beginning!)

MrsFoundit · Jan 27, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
There was no “before” creation, there just “was” and then time came into existence.

There was a "before" creation, because it is before there was time. If you could rewind time, you would end up at a point where God is and no other thing exists. It is before from our perspective, exactly the same as before a person was born, only it is before anything existed except God.

"how long did God exist before he created the universe?"

Forever. The question is not self defeating.

MrsFoundit · Jan 27, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
also the angels must have been created with some form of time concept because he was perfect then after that (indicating a sequence of events) he began to want to be like God.

Why do you think Satan was ever perfect? Do you have a source for that? All angels are created, as we are. I have never seen a source claim perfection as an angelic attribute.

Update:
Editing to add that I have now found it Ezekiel 28:15, sometimes translated "blameless" sometimes "perfect" Ezekiel 28:15 From the day you were created you were blameless in your ways--until wickedness was found in you., and in context it is only "in thy ways". I assume it means "obedient" as non-fallen angels still are.

GaveMeJoy · Jan 27, 2020

MrsFoundit said:
There was a "before" creation, because it is before there was time. If you could rewind time, you would end up at a point where God is and no other thing exists. It is before from our perspective, exactly the same as before a person was born, only it is before anything existed except God.

"how long did God exist before he created the universe?"

Forever. The question is not self defeating.

the concept of “before” involves sequencing of events, both things came into existence at creation. There is no such thing as duration before creation. So God’s eternal nature before creation cannot be quantified. Forever is a term we use to quantify going on and on in an infinite sequence. Before time there was no sequence, God just was. Therefore asking how long God existed before creation is a logical paradox.

MrsFoundit · Jan 27, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
the concept of “before” involves sequencing of events, both things came into existence at creation. There is no such thing as duration before creation. So God’s eternal nature before creation cannot be quantified. Forever is a term we use to quantify going on and on in an infinite sequence. Before time there was no sequence, God just was. Therefore asking how long God existed before creation is a logical paradox.

It is a "logical paradox", because of asking "how long". The concept of "before time" does apply, and it is not paradoxical. "Before time" and "after time" are both eternity, but it is valid from our perspective, to ask about "before" and "after" because we are in time as is.

Gottservant · Feb 1, 2020

How many different ways do you have to approach the beginning, before you have accounted for everyone that wants to have begun?

yeshuaslavejeff · Feb 1, 2020

Gottservant said:
before you have accounted for everyone that wants to have begun?

Since when are you supposed to or ever able to account for anyone, let alone everyone ?

Was there a “before” time, and if so, how can we possibly comprehend it

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