Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

Carl Emerson said:

The reason why I call it servant leadership is because it is rare today and real authority does not come from dominance and 'Lording it over...'

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Firstly, I don't think using that term is helpful. Secondly, a man must lead his family, sometimes/many times in spite of how they might feel, and that has nothing to do with, "lording over".

I man must make decisions that might appear to his family to be uncaring. He may have to relocate his family for business/financial reasons, at the strong objection and emotional upset of his wife and children.

A leader loves and serves, but sometime that love and service isn't understood by the people he is leading. In a church situation using language like, "servant leader" could (and has) opened the door to abuse of husbands by wives. For example, when the wife objects to her husbands rule she can go to the elders and cry, "He's not a servant leader" because he's doing XYX, and I don't like it".

I've noticed that the church is often to afraid to discuss male leadership. It spends far too much time explaining what it isn't and not enough time explaining what it is.

Paidiske said:

Then what was all that stuff about how women doing pastoral work creates "confusion" in the family?



You are promoting a structure where men get to make decisions, and women have to go along with them. You call it servant leadership, but it denies those women full participation and agency and is domination, by any other name.



Then again, why the accusations that women in ministry are damaging to their households?



That might be your position, jimmy, (of course many disagree); but at least you have the honesty to state it outright; not imply it and then deny the implications of what you're saying.

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You've just nailed the problem with, "Complementarianism". It is a false middle ground, speaking from both sides of its mouth.

jimmyjimmy said:

You've just nailed the problem with, "Complementarianism". It is a false middle ground, speaking from both sides of its mouth.

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In my experience it's not even that. It's just plain old patriarchy.

Carl Emerson said:

Did you read the thread, I explained at length. Ploverwing had the grace to ask me for more detail which I gave.

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I read the thread. As far as I could tell, you thought it was a problem that somehow she had a "higher spiritual rank" at church and this caused problems at home (although you didn't really specify what those problems were).

Carl Emerson said:

There you go again claiming I promote domination...

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Because it fits what you're describing. A rose by any other name...

Carl Emerson said:

Can we stick to the truth please, you are welcome to quote where I said such a thing.

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You said: "One thing I have noticed is that when a married woman takes a pastoral role in the church there is confusion regarding leadership in the family."

If it's not a problem, why are you presenting this "confusion" as a reason why women shouldn't be in ministry?

Paidiske said:

In my experience it's not even that. It's just plain old patriarchy.

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As a proud member of the patriarch, I can confirm: It's NOT patriarchy.

This is all too common a slander.

jimmyjimmy said:

As a proud member of the patriarch, I can confirm: It's NOT patriarchy.

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It's laying exclusive claim to particular powers and privileges for men; again, a rose by any other name...

As for the sign, it's probably true of all people that when we hold power, we are at least very prone to the temptation to abuse it. This is why we need to intentionally build systems and structures which put checks on that possibility.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

"KJV Translation Count — Total: 76x
The KJV translates Strong's G2776 in the following manner: head (76x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.

metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent

of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife

of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church

of things: the corner stone"



Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

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That's kephalé, not rosh.

Carl Emerson said:

The Greek text does not say Junia (feminine) but Junias (masculine)...

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Where do you get such incorrect information as this, Carl? The Greek text says Junian. The question of where to place the accent is what leads to Junia or Junias.

And as Scott McKnight points out:

"It happened, or can be illustrated, in Greek by changing the accent in an originally unaccented text from Jun-I-an to JuniAn. This change in accent led to the male name, JuniaS, the Anglicized form. But as Epp and others have shown, Junias is a man who didn’t exist with a name that didn’t exist in the ancient world."

Albion said:

Constantinople (now Istanbul) is in Turkey, not Greece.

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Ah yes. Thank you for the correction. It is central to Greek Orthodox churches, who all use the Greek text as their Scripture. So the Bishop of Constantinople had to know Greek well.

Constantinople:

Because of its historical location as the capital of the former Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire and its role as the Mother Church of most modern Orthodox churches, Constantinople holds a special place of honor within Orthodoxy and serves as the seat for the Ecumenical Patriarch, who enjoys the status of primus inter pares (first among equals) among the world's Eastern Orthodox prelates and is regarded as the representative and spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

Carl Emerson said:

I have said no such thing, you can't seem to resist misrepresenting me.

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I believe she is accurately interpreting what you are clearly saying and taking them to their logical conclusion. I see solid evidence that you are not being misrepresented, despite your protests to the contrary.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Notice the "if".
i.e. not everyone.

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That "if" applies to males and females equally. So what is your point?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I thought I posted the url separately in the post , but just now checked and simply clicked on the verse - it is and goes to Bible Hub.

Your explanation is not (does not seem to me enough nor) satisfactory nor good enough reason to dismiss it.

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Believe what you want. But I'm dismissing it because I know better. I suggest you read Junia: the First Woman Apostle by Eldon Jay Epp, or Junia is not Alone by Scot McKnight.

Why would you suggest something that apparently led you to error, and would lead me to error also if I let it ?

i.e.for instance, if someone posted a scholarly article that 'proved' someone else besides Messiah Jesus was the savior from the devil for the worldly, then that would have to be not accepted nor acceptable, right ?

Gregorikos said:

That's kephalé, not rosh.

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Yes, that's why I looked it up, then finding it, posted it. It is apparently not as you claimed earlier.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Yes, that's why I looked it up, then finding it, posted it. It is apparently not as you claimed earlier.

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I freely admit many lexicons ascribe a meaning of authority to kephalé, including Strong's, Thayer, and BAGD. But I don't believe those are correct. BAGD does so on the thinnest of evidence, the Bible itself and a reference from several centuries later, when kephalé did come to refer to authority. But in the first century, not so much. And the Septuagint is very powerful testimony to that fact.

Here is the Liddell Scott Jones, the premier lexicon of ancient Greek. You will not find a reference to authority listed here at all:

κεφᾰλή, ἡ, head of man or beast, Hom. (v.infr.), Alc.15, etc.; once in A., Th.525 (lyr.), once in S., Aj.238 (anap.), also in E., Fr.308 (anap.), Rh.226 (lyr.), al.; ἄλλου οὐδενὸς ἐμψύχου κ. γεύσεται Αἰγυπτίων οὐδείς Hdt.2.39; κεφαλῇ . . μείζονες taller in stature, Il.3.168; so μείων . . κεφαλήν ib.193 Aristarch.: freq. with Preps.,a. κατὰ κεφαλῆς, Ep. κὰκ κεφαλῆς, down over the head, κόνιν . . χεύατο κὰκ κεφαλῆς Il.18.24, cf. Od.8.85, etc.b. κατὰ κεφαλήν, Ep. κὰκ κεφαλήν on the head, Ἐρύλαον . . βάλε πέτρῳ μέσσην κὰκ κεφαλήν Il.16.412, cf. 20.387, 475: in Prose, from above, X.HG7.2.8: c.gen., above, κ. κ. τινῶν γενέσθαι ib.7.2.11; τὸ κ. κ. ὕδωρ, of rain water, Thphr. HP4.10.7 (-ὴν codd.), CP6.18.10 (-ῆς): in Archit., upright, IG22.463.42; also, per head, each person (cf. infr. I.2), Arist.Pol.1272a14, LXX Ex.16.16; κατὰ κεφαλὴν τῶν κωμητῶν PPetr.2p.17 (iii B. C.).c. ἐς πόδας ἐκ κεφαλῆς from head to foot, Il.23.169; τὰ πράγματα ἐκ τῶν ποδῶν ἐς τὴν κ. σοι πάντ’ ἐρῶ Ar.Pl.650.d. ἐπὶ κεφαλήν head foremost, ἐπὶ κ. κατορύξαι to bury head downwards, Hdt.3.35; ἐπὶ κ. ὠθέεσθαι to be thrust headlong, Id.7.136, cf. Hyp.Fr.251; ἐπὶ κ. ὠθεῖν τινα ἐκ τοῦ θρόνου Pl.R.553b; ἐπὶ τὴν κ. εἰς κόρακας ὦσον Men.Sam. 138; εὐθὺς ἐπὶ κ. εἰς τὸ δικαστήριον βαδίζειν D.42.12; οὐ βουλόμενος πολίτας ἄνδρας ἐπὶ κ. εἰσπράττειν τὸν μισθόν recklessly, Hyp.Lyc.17; ἐπὶ ταῖς κεφαλαῖς περιφέρειν carry on high, in token of admiration, Pl. R.600d.2. as the noblest part, periphr. for the whole person, πολλὰς ἰφθίμους κ. Il.11.55, cf. Od.1.343, etc.; ἶσον ἐμῇ κ. no less than myself, Il.18.82; ἑᾷ κ. Pi.O.7.67; esp. in salutation, φίλη κ. Il.8.281, cf. 18.114; ἠθείη κ. 23.94; Ἄπολλον, ὦ δία κ. E.Rh.226 (lyr.): in Prose, Φαῖδρε, φίλη κ. Pl.Phdr.264a; τῆς θείας κ. Jul.Or. 7.212a: in bad sense, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί Hdt.3.29; ὦ μιαρὰ κ. Ar.Ach. 285: periphr. in Prose, πεντακοσίας κεφαλὰς τῶν Ξέρξεω πολεμίων Hdt.9.99: in bad sense, ἡ μιαρὰ καὶ ἀναιδὴς αὕτη κ. D.21.117, cf. 18.153; ἡ κ. τῶν αὐτοῦ PRein.57.8 (iv A.D.); μεγάλη κ. a great personage, Vett. Val.74.7; cf. supr. I b fin.3. life, ἐμῇ κ. περιδείδια Il.17.242; σύν τε μεγάλῳ ἀπέτεισαν, σὺν σφῇσιν κεφαλῇσι 4.162; παρθέμενοι κεφαλάς staking their heads on the cast, Od.2.237; τὴν κ. ἀποβαλέεις Hdt.8.65.4. in imprecations, ἐς κεφαλὴν τράποιτ’ ἐμοί on my head be it! Ar.Ach.833; ἐς τὴν κ. ἅπαντα τὴν σὴν τρέψεται Id.Nu.40; ἃ σοὶ καὶ τοῖς σοῖς οἱ θεοὶ τρέψειαν εἰς κ. D.18.290; ἐς κ. σοί (sc. τράποιτο) Ar.Pax1063, Pl.526; σοὶ εἰς κ. Pl.Euthd.283e; τὰ μὲν πρότερον . . ἐγὼ κεφαλῇ ἀναμάξας φέρω Hdt.1.155; οἷς ἂν . . τὴν αἰτίαν ἐπὶ τὴν κ. ἀναθεῖεν D.18.294; τὸ αἷμα ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τὴν κ. ὑμῶν Act.Ap. 18.6.II. of things, extremity,a. in Botany, κ. σκορόδου head ( = inflorescence) of garlic, Ar.Pl.718, cf. Plb.12.6.4; κ. μήκωνος Thphr.HP9.8.2; ῥίζα κ. ἔχουσα πλείονας tubers, Dsc.3.120.b. in Anatomy, κεφαλαὶ τῆς κάτω γνάθου, prob. the condyloid and coronoid processes, Hp.Art.30; ἡ κ. τοῦ ὄρχεως, = ἐπιδιδυμίς, Arist.HA510a14, cf. Gal.4.565; μηροῦ, κνήμης κ., Poll.2.186, 188; of the base of the heart, Gal.UP6.16; but, apex, Hp.Cord.7; of the sac in poulps, Arist.PA654a23, 685a5; of muscles, origin, Gal.UP7.14.c. generally, top, brim of a vessel, Theoc.8.87; coping of a wall, X.Cyr.3.3.68; capital of a column, CIG2782.31 (Aphrodisias), LXX 3 Ki.7.16, Poll.7.121.d. in pl., source of a river, Hdt.4.91 (but sg., mouth, οἶδα Γέλα ποταμοῦ κεφαλῇ ἐπικείμενον ἄστυ Call.Aet.Oxy.2080.48): generally, source, origin, Ζεὺς κ. (v.l. ἀρχή), Ζεὺς μέσσα, Διὸς δ’ ἒκ πάντα τελεῖται (τέτυκται codd.) Orph.Fr.21a; starting-point, κ. χρόνου Placit. 2.32.2 (κρόνου codd.), Lyd.Mens.3.4; κ. μηνός ib.12.e. extremity of a plot of land, PPetr.3p.72 (iii B.C.), PFlor.50.83 (iii A.D.).III. Ὁμηρείη κ. bust of Homer, IG14.1183.10.IV. κ. περίθετος wig, head-dress, Ar.Th.258.V. metaph., κ. δείπνου pièce de résistance, Alex. 172.15.2. crown, completion, κεφαλὴν ἐπιθεῖναι Pl.Ti.69b; ὥσπερ κ. ἀποδοῦναι τοῖς εἰρημένοις Id.Phlb.66d, cf. Grg.505d; ὥσπερ κεφαλὴν ἔχουσα ἐπιστήμη Arist.EN1141a19; consummation, σχεῖν κ. Pl.Ti.39d.3. sum, total, πάσας ἐρρηγείας Tab.Heracl.1.36; of money, IG12(9).7 (Carystus, iv B. C.), SIG245ii 36 (Delph., iv B. C.).4. band of men, LXX Jb.1.17; right-hand half of a phalanx (opp. οὐρά), Arr.Tact.8.3, Ael.Tact.7.3.5. Astron., κ. τοῦ κόσμου, of Aries, Heph.Astr.1.1. (ghebh-, cf. κεβλή and Engl. gable.)

Carl Emerson said:

Is there an inherent functional difference between the genders that God created, that gave rise to His choice.

If you believe this, can you give scriptural support for this assertion.

Or did Jesus just follow what was culturally appropriate?

Subsequent Apostles in the early church were also men.

My aim is not to be a protagonist - I am hoping for constructive respectful dialogue.

May His Love cover this thread.

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Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

1st Timothy 2
11A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. 15Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

There is a hierarchy in regard to spiritual leadership, but that does not mean He regards a man more favorable than a woman.

We are all one in Christ.

eleos1954 said:

There is a hierarchy in regard to spiritual leadership, but that does not mean He regards a man more favorable than a woman.

We are all one in Christ.

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It is in the very nature of a hierarchy that those at higher levels are valued more (oftentimes much, much more) than those at lower levels. To state three cherry-picked verses to show that the man is rated of much higher accord than the woman, and then to state directly afterwards that God shows no favoritism by constructing such a cruel and abusive device is a contradiction that everyone besides complimentarians can very easily see through.