“We have all the material...they don’t have the material”

Albion said:

That said, if it were true...

you would have a case.

In other words, no crime, no evidence, no abuse of power

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We have been given no official reason for why aid was withheld from Ukraine. It can't have been done for no reason. Therefore a reason exists.

It is extremely easy, given the testimony, the perfect phone call, and other evidence from the relevant players, to put together a corrupt reason -- personal gain for Trump in the form of a Biden investigation in exchange for taxpayer money and a White House photo op. This is abuse of power.

It is possible that there is some extremely valid reason for withholding the aid and the White House visit; one that would wipe away any ethical and legal concerns.

Trump boasts that he has all the material.

In the past, he has been willing to declassify and disseminate information, such as the perfect phone call, to provide supposed evidence of its perfectness.

There is no reason for him to withhold exculpatory evidence from the public eye or the Senate.

It is in his interests to show We The People that his use of power was for the benefit of We The People, and not himself.

And yet. He is not just reluctant, but tyrannical in his orders to people in his administration to withhold evidence or testimony.

It is horrifying to contemplate why 53 Republican Senators are openly supporting blatant corruption in a way that will ultimately (Lord, please turn "ultimately" into "immediately") destroy their party.

I have thought hard on this, and all I can figure is that, like J Edgar Hoover in the 50's and 60's, Trump has dossiers on each of them that can destroy their careers. What else could make them act against Constitution, country, constituents, and their own consciences?

Fantine said:

It is horrifying to contemplate why 53 Republican Senators are openly supporting blatant corruption in a way that will ultimately (Lord, please turn "ultimately" into "immediately") destroy their party.

I have thought hard on this, and all I can figure is that, like J Edgar Hoover in the 50's and 60's, Trump has dossiers on each of them that can destroy their careers. What else could make them act against Constitution, country, constituents, and their own consciences?

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Manager Schiff stated it well:

"Some courageous people came forward. Courageous people that risked their entire careers," Schiff said. "They risked everything, their careers. And yes I know what you're asked to decide may risk yours, too. But if they could show the courage, so could we."

House Democrats Conclude First Day Of Opening Arguments In Trump Impeachment Trial

wing2000 said:

“I watched the lies from Adam Schiff. He’ll stand, he’ll look at a microphone, and he’ll talk like he’s so aggrieved,” Trump said at a news conference from the World Economic Forum in Davos, referring to the House Intelligence Committee chairman leading the prosecution.

On Schiff and House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold L. Nadler (D-N.Y.), another impeachment manager and longtime Trump foe, the president added: “These two guys — these are major sleazebags. They’re very dishonest people. Very, very dishonest people.”

Name calling indeed. It's beyond my comprehension how anyone can defend the behavior of this President and his utter disregard for our Constitution and our values.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...2f642e-3d55-11ea-8872-5df698785a4e_story.html

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His supporters don't merely "defend" his behavior. They support it and encourage it. It's what draws them to him. It's a reflection of them.

Fantine said:

It is horrifying to contemplate why 53 Republican Senators are openly supporting blatant corruption in a way that will ultimately (Lord, please turn "ultimately" into "immediately") destroy their party.

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I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Senate can, at a later time, decide to hear more evidence and testimony. Yes, these requests (from the hoi polloi in the House - imagine them trying to tell Senators how to do things) at the start of the process are being shot down. And it's ugly. But there is a chance they will ultimately be interested in getting more information later in the process.

Fantine said:

It is horrifying to contemplate why 53 Republican Senators are openly supporting blatant corruption in a way that will ultimately (Lord, please turn "ultimately" into "immediately") destroy their party.

I have thought hard on this, and all I can figure is that, like J Edgar Hoover in the 50's and 60's, Trump has dossiers on each of them that can destroy their careers. What else could make them act against Constitution, country, constituents, and their own consciences?

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What makes you think they are acting against their own consciences? Senators and Congressmen have placed their party and their own political power ahead of country for years. A few seem reluctantly abetting Trump, but many (such as Mitch McConnell) seem to do so quite willingly.

The_Barmecide said:

Except that the Ukranians who initially looked at the evidence back long before all this found NO EVIDENCE OF CORRUPTION. But I get it, we only trust RUSSIAN sources, not Ukranian.

But let's assume Biden IS corrupt. I got no problem with investigating him. But that's like saying that the guy who robbed the liquor store is innocent because the owner of the liquor store had a bunch of unpaid parking tickets and a bench warrant for his arrest.

(Do you see the point there?)

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When did Ukraine find no evidence of corruption in that country? lol They have known as the most corrupt country for many MANY years now.

The new leader did run on stopping corruption, and I'm sure he has his hands full. You can't just snap your fingers and it goes away.

You point makes no sense by the way.

HannahT said:

When did Ukraine find no evidence of corruption in that country? lol They have known as the most corrupt country for many MANY years now.

The new leader did run on stopping corruption, and I'm sure he has his hands full. You can't just snap your fingers and it goes away.

You point makes no sense by the way.

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I don’t want to speak for Barmecide but I believe the point was that Biden’s supposed corruption does not absolve Donald of his. They are two separate issues that deserve to be litigated individually. To bring up the Bidens during the impeachment of Donald Trump would only serve to distract from Trump’s impeachable actions.

wing2000 said:

“I watched the lies from Adam Schiff. He’ll stand, he’ll look at a microphone, and he’ll talk like he’s so aggrieved,” Trump said at a news conference from the World Economic Forum in Davos, referring to the House Intelligence Committee chairman leading the prosecution.

On Schiff and House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold L. Nadler (D-N.Y.), another impeachment manager and longtime Trump foe, the president added: “These two guys — these are major sleazebags. They’re very dishonest people. Very, very dishonest people.”

Name calling indeed. It's beyond my comprehension how anyone can defend the behavior of this President and his utter disregard for our Constitution and our values.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...2f642e-3d55-11ea-8872-5df698785a4e_story.html

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Remember when Republicans considered it beyond the pale to go to another country and complain about the US?

Fantine said:

It is horrifying to contemplate why 53 Republican Senators are openly supporting blatant corruption in a way that will ultimately (Lord, please turn "ultimately" into "immediately") destroy their party.

I have thought hard on this, and all I can figure is that, like J Edgar Hoover in the 50's and 60's, Trump has dossiers on each of them that can destroy their careers. What else could make them act against Constitution, country, constituents, and their own consciences?

Click to expand...

In the latest episode of his podcast, Ezra Klein reads an excerpt from his new book describing Henri Tajfel's work on the dynamics of group behavior. One of his findings was that, when divided into two groups, people in one group will willingly accept less total for themselves if it means disadvantaging folks in the out group to an even greater degree. IOW, they prioritize how much more they have than someone else over how much they have overall.

It's pretty clear that Republicans, as a party, are shooting themselves in the foot by so fervently backing Trump. Younger, increasingly-better-educated voters are turned off by the antics, bigotry, and unprofessionalism that would never be acceptable in the venues they inhabit on a daily basis. That such behaviors should be acceptable from POTUS is absurd and embarrassing. That repulsion is clear in the data showing that none of the demographic trends are going in Republicans' favor.

But rather than taking a temporary hit by self-correcting, standing unified behind Trump gives them a clear "win" over the libs, even if it's temporary.

iluvatar5150 said:

Remember when Republicans considered it beyond the pale to go to another country and complain about the US?

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Yes.

I also remember what happened at Helsinki.

wing2000 said:

Name calling indeed. It's beyond my comprehension how anyone can defend the behavior of this President and his utter disregard for our Constitution and our values.

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As long as he's hurting the right people ... Trump supporter complains shutdown is 'not hurting the people he needs to be hurting'

Fantine said:

It is horrifying to contemplate why 53 Republican Senators are openly supporting blatant corruption in a way that will ultimately (Lord, please turn "ultimately" into "immediately") destroy their party.

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Not too hard to understand :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ae30be-812e-11e8-b658-4f4d2a1aeef1_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...5f6f8a-3aff-11e7-8854-21f359183e8c_story.html
Trump sides with Russia against FBI

Apparently Republican Senators have been told if they don't.back the president he'll.have their head on a stick. Source wasn't sure if message was delivered by Trump or one of his accomplices.

Fantine said:

Apparently Republican Senators have been told if they don't.back the president he'll.have their head on a stick. Source wasn't sure if message was delivered by Trump or one of his accomplices.

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Don't believe it.

I know that there are fake news sources out there--and not having read the 412 vindictive tweets Trump had apparently posted over two days I couldn't be sure if that was one of them.
The content of the message would certainly have been characteristic of Trump's character, but it is possible that people familiar with his character defects made it up.

Bobber said:

Don't believe it.

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Of course you don’t. Despite the fact he’s openly and publicly attacked every Republican who has spoken out against him or acted against him in any way, shape or form, including his close allies.

Allandavid said:

Yep...fingers-in-ears time....

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Or rather that I'm not going to be gullible and be duped by misleading information?

Kentonio said:

Of course you don’t. Despite the fact he’s openly and publicly attacked every Republican who has spoken out against him or acted against him in any way, shape or form, including his close allies.

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You're forgetting the fact that he never has believed and still doesn't that the Senate aren't on his side. It goes against what he believes the outcome will be anyway so no need even out of a misplaced passion to have stated such.

Plus the quick response from Republican Senators and their bold assertions that nobody has received such a communication and yes I can tell it by the body language and facial expressions. They weren't timid in any sense of the word in saying it didn't happen no sense of trying to scoot around something which did. Just bold and clear that they never ever received such a communication and a look of bewilderment the Democrats claiming they did. Of course you're free to believe what you want but sorry I'm not buying it.