Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

Carl Emerson

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You might not recognise it as domination, but promoting a situation where a woman is expected to - how did you put it - see men as having authority and responsibility and headship in marriage, and willingly defer to the man's call; promoting that as the ideal is promoting domination.

I am promoting servant leadership.
 
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bekkilyn

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The Greek text does not say Junia (feminine) but Junias (masculine)...

There are a couple Greek texts that even use Julia instead of Junia or Junias. The majority of references in general concerning Junia is that she was indeed female.
 
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Carl Emerson

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You've made it very clear that you believe women in leadership positions in the Church are in the wrong, and damaging to their own households.

No... you have made it very clear that you think that is my position.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Don't you understand? Raising the topic in this way is making a personal accusation. You have, in effect, accused every woman in ministry, and every egalitarian, of going against God's will.

The topic was about the Apostles, their calling and authority.

You might like to read my OP.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I am promoting servant leadership.

"Servant leadership" is a nonsense term. Comlimentarian terms like that were coined to soften biblical ideals of gender roles.

Women cannot lead men because the do not have within themselves the God-designed ability to do so, and men who lead from the rear aren't any better.

Trying to placate feminists will never work, and only lead the Church further astray.

The Bible is unapologetically patriarchal. Christian ought to be as well.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The Greek text does not say Junia (feminine) but Junias (masculine)...

There are a couple Greek texts that even use Julia instead of Junia or Junias. The majority of references in general concerning Junia is that she was indeed female.

It might be of little importance overall.

See clearly how several authoritative translations are >>
CSB
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

CEB
Say hello to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners. They are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

CJB
Greetings to Andronicus and Junia, relatives of mine who were in prison with me. They are well known among the emissaries; also they came to trust in the Messiah before I did.

CEV
Greet my relatives Andronicus and Junias, who were in jail with me. They are highly respected by the apostles and were followers of Christ before I was.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Don't you understand? Raising the topic in this way is making a personal accusation. You have, in effect, accused every woman in ministry, and every egalitarian, of going against God's will.

That's exactly what you are doing, so how else can it it be stated? The truth is the truth, regardless of your refusal to obey it.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I think I will ask for the thread to be closed given that the participants seem incapable of exploring the issue but rather resort to personal smears. I don't mind the rough and tumble of dialogue but some are intent on moving it into the realm of fruitless provocation. If this doesn't stop I will have to report it to the mods.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Further searching revealed this:

"Among the apostles - This does not mean that they “were” apostles, as has been sometimes supposed. For,

(1) There is no account of their having been appointed as such.

(2) the expression is not one which would have been used if they “had” been. It would have been “who were distinguished apostles;” compare Romans 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Philemon 1:1.

(3) it by no means implies that they were apostles All that the expression fairly implies is, that they were known to the other apostles; that they were regarded by them as worthy of their affection and confidence; that they had been known by them, as Paul immediately adds, before “he” was himself converted. They had been converted “before” he was, and were distinguished in Jerusalem among the early Christians, and honored with the friendship of the other apostles.

(4) the design of the office of “apostles” was to bear “witness” to the life, death, resurrection, doctrines, and miracles of Christ; compare Acts 1:21, Acts 1:26; Acts 22:15. As there is no evidence that they had been “witnesses” of these things; or appointed to it, it is improbable that they were set apart to the apostolic office.

(5) the word “apostles” is used sometimes to designate “messengers” of churches; or those who were “sent” from one church to another on some important business, and “if” this expression meant that they “were” apostles, it could only be in some such sense as having obtained deserved credit and eminence in that business; see Philemon 2:25; 2 Corinthians 8:23."
https://www.studylight.org/commentary/romans/16-7.html
 
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Carl Emerson

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"Servant leadership" is a nonsense term. Leaders lead.

Women cannot lead because the do not have within themselves the God-designed ability to do so, and men who lead from the rear aren't any better.

1 Peter 5:

2. Be shepherds of God’s flock that is among you, watching over them not out of compulsion, but because it is God’s will; not out of greed, but out of eagerness; 3. not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.…

This is servant leadership without domination.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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yeshuaslavejeff

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The most effective leader I ever met had an enormous heart of Love and would have you kneeling with him on the carpet before the Lord.
Was Jesus an "effective leader" in your view ?

(remember a lot of His Own disciples walked away from Him, and He was not all that polite or "nicey nice" to religious leaders, even His Own disciples (He / His Word says a man is not His (the Father's ) son, unless he is scourged... (not so popular in some groups )
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Tigger45

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The Greek text does not say Junia (feminine) but Junias (masculine)...
Yeah we know but these comments coming from a highly respected church father of the 4th century who actually spoke Greek is very significant.
 
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PloverWing

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Now we had close friends who operated in a similar way, however the wife took the role of pastor in their church.
With this new role they were faced with how authority should work in the family. Was He to defer to her in all matters now that she had assumed a 'higher spiritual rank'? How was it meant to work?

I can see that it might take some care and thought for this couple to find a harmonious way for their relationship to work. The option that most naturally occurs to me is for each of them to defer to the other in their differing areas of expertise -- so, he would defer to her in many church matters, and she would defer to him in his areas of expertise, and they would probably just share responsibility equally in areas that they're both strong in. How did this couple decide to approach the situation?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The High Priest in Jerusalem, and other Scribes and Pharisees and Sadducees who sought to have Jesus killed were very skilled in Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic and other language,
and 'knew' Scripture backwards and forwards in the original .....
and they loved and desired the "respect" of their peers and the Jerusalem folk and other Israelites or Jews wherever they were...
Jesus did say "Listen to them"
but only when they taught/read/ TORAH,
and Jesus warned His disciples NOT to live like they lived
rather to beware the "leaven of the religious leaders" with seriousness - a stern warning.... from jesus....
So a prominent position, or historical respect of men/ society,
is not to be a coveted nor desired position, nor 'respected' by Jesus' disciples / followers....
Everything , and each message, must be tested... not accepted until proven true according to Scripture with no contradiction....
 
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Paidiske

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I have said no such thing, you can't seem to resist misrepresenting me.

Then what was all that stuff about how women doing pastoral work creates "confusion" in the family?

I am promoting servant leadership.

You are promoting a structure where men get to make decisions, and women have to go along with them. You call it servant leadership, but it denies those women full participation and agency and is domination, by any other name.

No... you have made it very clear that you think that is my position.

Then again, why the accusations that women in ministry are damaging to their households?

That's exactly what you are doing, so how else can it it be stated? The truth is the truth, regardless of your refusal to obey it.

That might be your position, jimmy, (of course many disagree); but at least you have the honesty to state it outright; not imply it and then deny the implications of what you're saying.
 
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