Bill Wiese twenty three minutes in hell?

thecolorsblend said:

The human mind is a creative instrument. It’s possible that he’s mistaken, at the very least.

I tend to be a bit skeptical of all these supposed NDE’s where the patient saw Heaven, Hell or what have you.

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DennisTate said:

So... by this should I assume that you either believe in the Soul Sleep Theory or something pretty close to it?

If so I can understand your thinking that way considering that I did myself from 1972 to 1991.


This is the exact near death experience account that was quoted by Dr. Raymond Moody in one of this books that got me rethinking that doctrine.

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

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I am skeptical of many NDE stories, but not this one. It sounds legitimate to me so far.

Curtis.Hilliker said:

Paul had an experience of Heaven (assuming he was talking about himself) and came back. So I would say it is definitely possible that people can experience Heaven and Hell.

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Paul didn't die and come back from the dead, however. Nor does his experience, which we have as the revealed word of God transfer to every other person who may tell stories about dreams he had while unconscious. And as for 2 Corinthians, that is describing a vision, not an NDE.

2 Corinthians 12 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

DennisTate said:

OK.... so then I take it that you don't believe in the Soul Sleep Theory!

Have you found even one near death experience accounts so far that you basically accept as probably being as accurate as the experience could speak or write it out?

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Look bro, it's really not amusing anymore. What I wrote was...

thecolorsblend said:

The human mind is a creative instrument. It’s possible that he’s mistaken, at the very least.

I tend to be a bit skeptical of all these supposed NDE’s where the patient saw Heaven, Hell or what have you.

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That's what I said and that's what I meant. Stop trying to go beyond that and stop putting words in my mouth. I've got a thousand memes I can post in response but ain't nobody got time fo dat.

Albion said:

Paul didn't die and come back from the dead, however. Nor does his experience, which we have as the revealed word of God transfer to every other person who may tell stories about dreams he had while unconscious. And as for 2 Corinthians, that is describing a vision, not an NDE.

2 Corinthians 12 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

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True but what are you trying to get at? I didn’t say Paul had a NDE (although he certainly did when he was stoned!). He didn’t know if it was in the body or not, so technically it could have been more than just a vision.

Curtis.Hilliker said:

True but what are you trying to get at? I didn’t say Paul had a NDE (although he certainly did when he was stoned!). He didn’t know if it was in the body or not, so technically it could have been more than just a vision.

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But we were talking about NDEs and claims arising from supposed NDEs. That's where the OP started us off.

The thread is not about anything and everything that might bear some sort of similarity to an NDE.

Albion said:

But we were talking about NDEs and claims arising from supposed NDEs. That's where the OP started us off.

The thread is not about anything and everything that might bear some sort of similarity to an NDE.

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OK. I guess my presumption is that if we can have those kind of experiences while alive and well then why not during a NDE. Have a good night.

Curtis.Hilliker said:

OK. I guess my presumption is that if we can have those kind of experiences while alive and well then why not during a NDE.

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because the two are entirely different, that's why.

Curtis.Hilliker said:

Paul had an experience of Heaven (assuming he was talking about himself) and came back. So I would say it is definitely possible that people can experience Heaven and Hell.

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The only reference in the New Testament was Paul's description of someone who was transported to the third heaven (some think it was Paul describing himself). It is interesting that he observed things that he was not permitted to talk about.

It is also interesting that those who say that they have been to heaven, can't keep quiet about it. There seems to be a disparity between these experiences and Paul's experience as described in Scripture.

So these modern ones who say they have been to heaven presumably are not having the same experience as Paul. Because Paul's experience is the only one described in Scripture, and the modern type experiences aren't, it would be understood that because of my belief that if it ain't in Scripture then it ain't true, that I would have a reasonable doubt that these modern guys went to heaven at all, but had nothing more than a hallucinary experience.

Albion said:

because the two are entirely different, that's why.

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May I ask if you have ever had any type of vision from God or the enemy?

I actually came across this video a few weeks ago as I was moved to listen to the testimonies of others. I have watched many since then and, I personally, feel that these events are actually shown to people as a way of letting others know what is to come. Not only does it change the person's life of whom sees such things, it also gives them the opportunity to share it with everyone else who is willing to listen...or watch in the case of videos. We then have the choice to learn from that, or not.
I haven't had any NDE's, but I have been through some things that some people think sounds crazy. However, I experienced them nonetheless.
Through it all, I learned that there is a spiritual world of both good and evil that goes far beyond what I imagined before. I personally, have a Heaven to gain and a hell to shun. My own experiences have shown me that. Did I actually go to either place? No. However, I have seen just enough to know that I don't want to go to hell. Had it not been revealed to me, I may have been skeptical about a lot of things.
One thing I have noticed in listening to all the testimonies, they either see a form of heaven or a form of hell. A few even see both. If there was nothing to it, I would think everyone would experience more of a void. No feeling. Seeing nothing. Hearing nothing. Just.....Nothing.
Not trying to debate, just voicing my thoughts on the subject and was intrigued that the OP was about the very video I had just watched weeks ago.

Albion said:

I agree, "colorsblend." And it is worth noting that NDE's overwhelmingly deal with perceptions, experiences, etc. that 1) relate to THIS world 2) WHILE the person was dead or thought to be dead and 3) are verifiable.

The people who tell us what hell is like--and they do not agree with each other about that, which itself casts doubt upon their tales--are far fewer in number.

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The problem with all these experiences is they are outside scripture yet purport to be a definite description of what is.

Scripture tells us punishment will be given to all for their sins, except those who have been washed in the blood of the lamb.
Those not written in the Lambs book of life will be sent into the Lake of fire.

There is an open question whether unbelievers are tormented between now and judgement in hades, which would correspond to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Believers sleep until the end. Samuel was woken up from his sleep to answer Saul

Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?I am in great distress" 1 Samuel 28:15

Samuel was asleep and had be disturbed by Saul.

The truth is not to be with Jesus is to be against Him and to be in line of His wrath. This we should fear above anything else.

The flip side is walking with Jesus is life itself, a narrow path and a straight path that leads to life, Amen.

DennisTate said:

This is very informative but......
what do you think about the research done by Maurice Rawlings M. D. on some of his cardiac patients who reported remembering nothing during the time that they flatlined.


Dr. Maurice Rawlings - To Hell and Back Documentary MUST WATCH!!!

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There are no buts to what the apostle stated on this subject in second Corinthians beginning chapter 12.

Albion said:

Paul didn't die and come back from the dead, however. Nor does his experience, which we have as the revealed word of God transfer to every other person who may tell stories about dreams he had while unconscious. And as for 2 Corinthians, that is describing a vision, not an NDE.

2 Corinthians 12 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

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I noticed something rather interesting in searching v. 4. of that chapter. Of the dozen and more translations only the ESV omits the word paradise from that verse in the Biblehub website. Do you why that is? I would guess that it doesn't always appear in some ancient manuscripts.

DennisTate said:

So... by this should I assume that you either believe in the Soul Sleep Theory or something pretty close to it?

If so I can understand your thinking that way considering that I did myself from 1972 to 1991.


This is the exact near death experience account that was quoted by Dr. Raymond Moody in one of this books that got me rethinking that doctrine.

Click to expand...

I have a simple question. Some of these visions have demons torturing people. Where in scripture are demons given authority to torture people? It is the demons themselves who are tortured in the lake of fire.

My suspicion is somehow the enemy would love to have the idea he has authority over man, when it is God who has authority over both of us. A lot of superstition is based upon the notion the enemy has power in a believers lives to cause problems. It is the flesh that wars with us, and Christ in us who casts out and has authority over evil forces.

Eph 6:11-13
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Paul and the Apostles had no problems with demon possession, demons fled from them. They had serious problems with people though.

In revelation, only at a specific time is the beast allowed to make war against the Church.

rev 13:7
He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them

rev 13:10
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

So anything that exalts the enemy and his powers I have great cynicism over.

Norbert L said:

I noticed something rather interesting in searching v. 4. of that chapter. Of the dozen and more translations only the ESV omits the word paradise from that verse in the Biblehub website. Do you why that is? I would guess that it doesn't always appear in some ancient manuscripts.

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Hi, Norbert. I don't have the answer to that question, but I would guess it relates to the fact that "paradise" is a rather imprecise term that is understood in quite different ways by different Christians and Christian churches. Some say it's a synonym for Heaven, others that it refers to a kind of Limbo, others to the afterlife in general, and so on. The translators of the ESV may well have wanted to dampen or sidestep that speculation.

DennisTate said:

Bill Wiese does an exceptional job of going through all the scriptures related to the subject of hell.

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No he doesn't.

Perhaps he had some sort of vision, but that is all. Once demons apparently torture people, you've left Bible land and entered folklore.

Gives him a good excuse to show horror clips in a church, though.

LightLoveHope said:

I have a simple question. Some of these visions have demons torturing people. Where in scripture are demons given authority to torture people? It is the demons themselves who are tortured in the lake of fire.

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Satan was given authority to torment Job, but Satan had to ask it of God. God granted it, but with restrictions. That begs the question: did Satan work for God at that time?

I have seen pictorial representations of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell, and it is so familiar, with flames and hideous demons torturing the damned. Why do we share religious ideas with pagans?

In case anyone on this thread may wonder: I utterly reject the concept of "Hell" as commonly imagined.