The Truth About Abortion

Brightmoon

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And then there are women whose fetuses have no chance at life who want to end a pregnancy that at that point is an unnecessary burden on the women . That’s an abortion too .

No one else should decide to continue ANY pregnancy except the woman involved and maybe her doctor.
 
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Josheb

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Do you believe that, had you been aborted because of the defeat, you would of never gotten a chance to live again?....on earth, that is.

And the very fact that you were born....Is it because your mother willed it...or God?
What's the topic of this op, Raymond?
 
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Josheb

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No one supports abortion.
Are you sure you do not want to clarify and more accurately qualify that statement because I can provide a long list of quotes from people who do in fact support abortion, some indiscriminantly and others less so but I can prove your statement patently false.
But there are some who believe you should have a right to make your own choice about it and not be forced one way or the other, if it is legal.
Yes, and that statement has more to do with "rights" and not a thing to do with anything I've posted. As to the "right" of "choice," I've already addressed that matter: quality of life does not trump existence of life. No one has a right to kill humans.
Similar to Guns.....
No, it is not similar to guns. That is a false equivalency.
 
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Josheb

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Very Prior to Roe abortions weren’t illegal and were carried out by midwives.
That's not entirely correct but I'll concede the point for the moment. Given the premise of abortions being legal you then understand Roe was political and therefore had little to do with existing medical and legal practice. It was bad social policy, bad medical policy, and bad legal policy.
Baby farming...
Ugh! Why is it so difficult for those of you responding to my posts to stay on topic?

Abortion kills humans. Killing humans is immoral and should be illegal. While there may be exceptions to the rule the exceptions do not determine the rule. The existence of life is greater than quality of life. The op is correct when stating, "Abortion should not be a form of birth control," and none of you have come close to presenting a rational argument for the dissent. Most of you can't even stay on topic and the rest post content laden with fallacy. Look at your own arguments and examine them before you post them so you'll save us both time and effort. You don't need me to show you the non sequiturs, red herrings, straw men, false causes, false equivalencies, and other common fallacies. If you're smart enough to use a computer in an internet discussion board then you're smart enough to critique your own posts (or am I arguing a false cause? :eek:).
 
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SkyWriting

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Children given potentially eternal life by the Creator who gives and grants life through conception and birth, yes....
Even a hard difficult life - which is promised anyway to everyone who stands up for the truth - even persecution and martyrdom....
Realize WHO JESUS WAS, WHEN IN THE WOMB.....

So you personally would treat all the children born to physically and mentally challenged people who have been experienced violent rape by caregivers (50% to 90% say the advocates for such people) as if they were baby Jesus?

I'm not saying that is bad. It's very admirable! I would hope that would definitely
be the case! What I'm saying is that you ask such things of others.....but you really
do not plan to be involved at all after the birth.

This is the case with all Pro-Life groups. ( I used to be Pro-Life.) They all preach how others should cherish life.......but they have no such programs in place at all nor any focus on caring for the unaborted babies. They always say "Hey! Not my problem!" It's the woman who acted so foolishly job to care for the child for 20 years. And they only focus on imaginary mothers who have the finances and ability to raise unlimited numbers of children, but they sleep around more than they should. And they skip to the abortion clinic on a whim and then skip home, back to their large homes, cars, and boat loads of money they spend on clothes and makeup instead of additional children.

So they put up a fine sermon, but it's just empty preaching. These little "Baby Jesus" kids are left to fend for themselves.

My wife works in day care at KinderCare. These basically abandoned kids are living terrors and the Pro-Life groups are as far away as possible. Maybe they are the mom's dropping off the kids.

Pro-Life Wisconsin - We are cultivating a society in which every human life is welcomed.(Sermons)..
National Right to Life - Learn how you can elect pro-life candidates and pass state and federal pro-life laws! (Sermons and related restrictive laws)
Pro-Life Action League - Parenting may be the right decision for you, so you owe it to yourself and your baby to think about what it would take. We can help connect you with resources (Other organizations private or tax money) that make you feel confident and supported if parenting is the best option for you and your baby. (sermons and places for you to beg)
List of anti-abortion organizations in the United States
(not even a single offer to adopt one child)
 
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Kenny'sID

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I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar. Many of the practices in the abortion industry are an abomination.

I wonder how many would honestly answer "yes" if I ask them if that were their fetus, should it qualify to be aborted, regardless the stage?

This is so much more simple than people make it out to be.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="SkyWriting, post: 74664781, member: 255843"]So you would treat all the children born to physically and mentally challenged people
who have been experienced violent rape by caregivers (50% to 90% say the advocates
for such people) as if they were baby Jesus?

I'm not saying that is bad. It's very admirable! I would hope that would definitely
be the case! What I'm saying is that you ask such things of others.....but you really
do not plan to be involved at all after the birth.

This is the case will all Pro-Life groups. ( I used to be Pro-Life.) They all preach how other should cherish life.......but they have no such programs in place at all nor any focus on caring for the unaborted babies. They always say "Hey! Not my problem!" It's the woman who acted so foolishly job to care for the child for 20 years.

So they put up a nobel speech, but it's just empty preaching.[/QUOT
E
===================================================
Other people have tried for centuries the same excuse for sin as you try to (or do) use here, as you have stated you use in other posts (apparently part of why you choose to continue in sin instead of doing what is right)....

Just because a whole or part of a religion sins, even though the whole world may sin, (and does), gives NO ONE ELSE, not even you nor me, an excuse to continue daily in sin as you have revealed in your posts.

Each person , you and me and the others, are to live as those who know we/they are to be judged.

Disobeying daily, after being warned as you have been warned for years, results in staying on the wide path to destruction along with all the others who refuse to repent , like as written the blind leading the blind, due to unbelief already.
 
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RaymondG

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Are you sure you do not want to clarify and more accurately qualify that statement because I can provide a long list of quotes from people who do in fact support abortion, some indiscriminantly and others less so but I can prove your statement patently false.
Yes I would like for you to prove that most Christians 51% or more, say that abortion is a good thing to do and encourages it, no matter the reason. If you are basing your claims on outliers or a minute percentage of people....your claims are baseless.

No one has a right to kill humans.
What's the topic of this op, Josheb?

Killing humans is against the law.....Abortion is not, in some places. So obviously more than a few people do not believe they are one and the same. You cannot make up your own laws and them hold everyone else accountable to them. If you want others to stay on topic, you should as well.

Let us talk about abortion and not killing humans...... Unless you only care about what you believe similar ignoring and disregarding the similarities seen by others whose opinions you deem less deserving of the respect you give your own...

No, it is not similar to guns. That is a false equivalency.

I disagree, the situations are equivalent....... Yet I respect your God given, free will to choose to have beliefs different from my own and to act according to your own convictions.

Can you do the same for others?
 
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twin.spin

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I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar. Many of the practices in the abortion industry are an abomination.

Now I am going to tell other Christians here a simple fact, god does not acknowlege an unborn child as a human being in the bible. Gods says it, if you cause a woman to lose her child you have to pay her a fine for the loss, if you kill a human being god says you are to be put to death. So Christians I am sorry according to the bible its not murder.

Now my stance, a fetus is a human being and and abortion is murder in my personal oppinon.
It should stay legal in only two cases, one if a woman is a victim of rape and even then it to be in the first 2 or 3 months, take into account shock but if you wait 6 months then decide you want an abortion..thats sick because at 6 months the child can survive with medical assistancce.


Secondly for medical reason such as the mother not being able to carry to term...case in point a woman in ireland was miscarrying and they would not remove the baby cause the heart was beating, the child was dead short of jesus christ coming down from the heavens that baby was going to die. But they waited for heart to stop..she got an inffection because of it and died.

Abortion should not be a form of brith control. If you do not want kids uses condoms and the pill or better yet keep your legs closed and pants zipped.

Christians your stance on abortion is not a religious issue...its moral personal one so get over the god says it abortion bit cause he done not consider and unborn child a human being according to the bible..sorry
Scripture says otherwise concerning the unborn being each verse having human qualities:

Psalm 51:6
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

Hosea 12:3
In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God.

Luke 1:44
As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.

Galatians 1:15
But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace,...

 
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Josheb

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Yes I would like for you to prove that most Christians 51% or more, say that abortion is a good thing to do and encourages it, no matter the reason.
Nice straw man. Nowhere did I say, "most Christians say abortion is a good thing." Never said it. Never implied it. Never remotely insinuated it.
What's the topic of this op, Josheb?
Killing fetal humans, not rights to do so. When you bring up rights you're digressing.
Killing humans is against the law.....Abortion is not, in some places.
Yep. This op isn't about the law and whether the law is right, moral, or lawful. The US and many countries throughout history have legislated laws immorally. It was once legal in the US to consider a person of African origin or ethnicity only 3/5 of a person. It was once legal in the US to own humans.... and it was once legal to kill those humans owned by other humans.

The point is this: just because something is legal does not make it correct, moral, or just. Killing fetal humans is bad social policy, bad medical policy, and bad legal policy, and nothing I'm reading from you proves otherwise. What I am reading is laden with a variety of fallacy and when that's put to you the response is an appeal to personal opinion....
I disagree, the situations are equivalent....
No, they are not. Your personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. It is what you can evidence and prove factually and rationally that determines a sound argument and changing the topic, false equivalencies, and straw men do not constitute a sound argument.

The murderous use of a gun is not something anyone, Christian or not, can morally justify, nor does anyone, Christian or not, support a right to murder or a right to the choice of murder. Your attempted analogy Fails and it Fails egregious along several lines of reasoning.
Can you do the same for others?
Already done. So far no one has prove abortion does not kill humans. No one has proven existence of life is less significant or important than quality of life. Until someone does so everything else is moot.

When you come forth and plainly state, "Yes, abortion kills a human and yes the existence of life outranks quality of life because there can be no quality to a life that doesn't exist, but........." then I will consider the rest of your argument but so far everything I've received in dissent of the op's point and the two I've added has been scripturally and rationally flawed.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Let us talk about abortion and not killing humans...... Unless you only care about what you believe similar ignoring and disregarding the similarities seen by others whose opinions you deem less deserving of the respect you give your own...


Aren't you tho one coming here pushing what you believe, and treating others as though their opinions are less deserving? Seems to me you are doing right there, what you are accusing others of doing.

Seriously, why come here and try to convince Christians, the very people who are likely against abortion, that abortion is ok? Can you not simply accept that some will never buy into your ideas on this? Why try to change our minds? The only thing that makes sense of your actions is you aren't completely sure you aren't promoting killing babies.
 
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redleghunter

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I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar. Many of the practices in the abortion industry are an abomination.
This is by sight and we can do so through medical technological achievements. However, the science is clear. We know we are distinct (from the parents) human beings by DNA and more specifically by chromosomes at the moment of fertilization. These are biological facts. We are small human beings at that point but human beings. We are exactly what we are supposed to be at that point in human development.

Now I am going to tell other Christians here a simple fact, god does not acknowlege an unborn child as a human being in the bible. Gods says it, if you cause a woman to lose her child you have to pay her a fine for the loss, if you kill a human being god says you are to be put to death. So Christians I am sorry according to the bible its not murder.
That is an assertion and not a fact. Miscarriage nor abortion appears in the Hebrew text in Exodus 21:22-25. The language used is that this is a live birth which is premature. Let's look at the text involved:

Exodus 21: King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Now another word for word literal translation from a modern English version.

Exodus 21: NASB


"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21:22-25 NASB
http://bible.com/100/exo.21.22-25.NASB


Now we take a look at the Hebrew lexicon.



If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

So that her fruit:

Hebrew: יֶלֶד yeled

The KJV translates Strongs H3206 in the following manner:child (72x), young man (7x), young ones (3x), sons (3x), boy (2x), fruit (1x), variant (1x).


child, son, boy, offspring, youth


  1. child, son, boy
  2. child, children
  3. descendants
  4. youth
Yeled is not not miscarriage nor still birth, it's a live child.

Is there a Hebrew word for miscarriage and stillborn? Yes and it is not Yeled.

Exodus 23: KJV


26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.

The above now in the Hebrew lexicon:
שָׁכֹל shakol


The KJV translates Strongs H7921 in the following manner:bereave (10x),barren(2x), childless (2x), cast young(2x), cast a calf (1x), lost children (1x),rob of children(1x), deprived (1x), misc (5x).


שָׁכֹלshâkôl, shaw-kole'; a primitive root; properly, to miscarry, i.e. suffer abortion; by analogy, to bereave (literally or figuratively):—bereave (of children), barren, cast calf (fruit, young), be (make) childless, deprive, destroy, × expect, lose children, miscarry, rob of children, spoil.


So we can see shakol is not used in Exodus 21:22ff.

Yaled is alive; shakol is miscarriage.


Now my stance, a fetus is a human being and and abortion is murder in my personal oppinon.
It should stay legal in only two cases, one if a woman is a victim of rape and even then it to be in the first 2 or 3 months, take into account shock but if you wait 6 months then decide you want an abortion..thats sick because at 6 months the child can survive with medical assistancce.
How does rape justify the termination (killing) of an innocent human life in the womb? The act of terrible violence against the woman happened due to a rapist and not the human being in the womb. The rapist gets what? Maybe 7 years if apprehended and convicted of the crime. Goes to jail gets three hot meals a day, a cot, and cable television. May even get out in 3.5 years or sooner for "good behavior."

What did the child do to get a death sentence?

Secondly for medical reason such as the mother not being able to carry to term...case in point a woman in ireland was miscarrying and they would not remove the baby cause the heart was beating, the child was dead short of jesus christ coming down from the heavens that baby was going to die. But they waited for heart to stop..she got an inffection because of it and died.
If the child still had a heartbeat then he/she was not dead. However the death of Savita Halappanavar was a medical malpractice case as the doctors did not treat her sepsis. The medical inquiry showed Galway hospital missed 13 opportunities to properly diagnose and treat her. It had nothing to do with the then strict Irish abortion laws.

More here: Ireland’s abortion lobby is lying about this pregnant woman’s death to push their cause

Of course the abortion lobby and liberal media selected their 'facts' and did not bother reporting the full story.

In the U.S. the life of the pregnant woman was in law in all 50 states before Roe vs. Wade. Roe vs. Wade was about abortion on demand for any reason.

Christians your stance on abortion is not a religious issue...its moral personal one so get over the god says it abortion bit cause he done not consider and unborn child a human being according to the bible..sorry
Another assertion. I already posted on Exodus 21:22-26, therefore you are operating from an invalid premise. In fact God communicates that innocent blood or life is very important to Him:

Innocent Blood

Deu 19:10

That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Deu 19:13

Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

Deu 21:8

Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel's charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.

Deu 21:9

So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD.

1Sa 19:5

For he did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great salvation for all Israel: thou sawest it, and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou sin against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause?

1Ki 2:31

And the king said unto him, Do as he hath said, and fall upon him, and bury him; that thou mayest take away the innocent blood, which Joab shed, from me, and from the house of my father.

2Ki 21:16

Moreover Manasseh shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another; beside his sin wherewith he made Judah to sin, in doing that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

2Ki 24:4

And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon.

Psa 94:21


They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.

Psa 106:38

And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

Pro 6:17

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isa 59:7

Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Jer 7:6

If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

Jer 22:3

Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

Jer 22:17

But thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it.

Jer 26:15

But know ye for certain, that if ye put me to death, ye shall surely bring innocent blood upon yourselves, and upon this city, and upon the inhabitants thereof: for of a truth the LORD hath sent me unto you to speak all these words in your ears.

Joe 3:19

Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Jon 1:14

Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.

Mat 27:4

Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.


There is a lot more I could post on what you question in your posts. Recommend a deeper study into the science and theological considerations of Abortion and provide scientific peer study reviews, theological papers and arguments below:

Life Begins at Fertilization – Peer Reviewed Scientific Sources « The Fetal Position

Associates for Biblical Research - Lex Talionis and the Human Fetus

What Exactly is ‘Constitutional Personhood’? The Definition of Personhood and Its Role in the Life Debate

The Abortion Wars: What Most Christians Don’t Know

The fetus in biblical law
 
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redleghunter

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Let us talk about abortion and not killing humans...... Unless you only care about what you believe similar ignoring and disregarding the similarities seen by others whose opinions you deem less deserving of the respect you give your own...
How would you define the premeditated (in over 97% of all cases of abortion) termination (killing) of innocent human beings?
 
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RaymondG

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Aren't you tho one coming here pushing what you believe, and treating others as though their opinions are less deserving? Seems to me you are doing right there, what you are accusing others of doing.

Seriously, why come here and try to convince Christians, the very people who are likely against abortion, that abortion is ok? Can you not simply accept that some will never buy into your ideas on this? Why try to change our minds? The only thing that makes sense of your actions is you aren't completely sure you aren't promoting killing babies.
Are you trying to be deceptive intentionally?

I wrote in the same reply you quotes, that I respected the opinion of the one I was conversing with....yet you left that out and say that I dont?

I also wrote in a post that I believed that no one supports abortion, christian or not, no one would say that it was ok.....and asked the poster to prove otherwise.....and he said that he could?

So why try to make others believe that I support it after reading those clear words?

What are you trying to accomplish here?
 
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SkyWriting

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Each person, you and me and the others, are to live as those who know we/they are to be judged.

As you say, we can judge ourselves but are not qualified to judge any sin in others.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

What Does the Bible Say About Judging Others?
 
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SkyWriting

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How would you define the premeditated (in over 97% of all cases of abortion) termination (killing) of innocent human beings?

Biblical?

29 Now at midnight the LORD struck down every firstborn male in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on his throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner in the dungeon, as well as all the firstborn among the livestock. 30 During the night Pharaoh got up—he and all his officials and all the Egyptians—and there was loud wailing in Egypt; for there was no house without someone dead.

Exodus 15:19
For when Pharaoh's horses, chariots, and horsemen went into the sea, the LORD brought the waters of the sea back over them.

Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

Numbers 16:49
But those who died from the plague numbered 14,700, in addition to those who had died on account of Korah.
 
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Brightmoon

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Some women do not want to undergo the physical stress of having a baby . Most people are aware of the hormonal changes that play havoc with your emotions. A few women become psychotic because of that. All women in labor put up with horrendous pain that can last for up to 24 or more hours. Then there’s the biological fact that a fetus fights the mothers body thru the entire pregnancy. Which is why some people including some biologists characterize a fetus as a type of temporary parasite . And if you don’t believe that, ask any developmental biologist. You might not like the fact that some women don’t want to be forced to undergo these but I support their decision not to
 
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Kenny'sID

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I wrote in the same reply you quotes, that I respected the opinion of the one I was conversing with....yet you left that out and say that I dont?

Yes, i notice the damage control there. I mean since you were getting on to others, that was an ideal time to make it appear you respected others opinion. Thing is, I didn't notice you did.

So why try to make others believe that I support it after reading those clear words?

Because you sound very much like you support abortion, your actions speak louder than your claim. One hardy has to read between the lines to see that.

What are you trying to accomplish here?

I was very clear with my comments.
 
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SPF

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Let us talk about abortion and not killing humans.
Except abortion is precisely the killing of unborn human beings. 98.5% of all abortions are performed for non-medical emergency situations. In other words, 98.5% of abortions are performed for convenience sake.

1. God created all human beings in His Image and possess inherent moral worth and value.
2. A new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

The conclusion should be readily apparent.
 
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SPF

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Some women do not want to undergo the physical stress of having a baby . Most people are aware of the hormonal changes that play havoc with your emotions. A few women become psychotic because of that. All women in labor put up with horrendous pain that can last for up to 24 or more hours. Then there’s the biological fact that a fetus fights the mothers body thru the entire pregnancy. Which is why some people including some biologists characterize a fetus as a type of temporary parasite . And if you don’t believe that, ask any developmental biologist. You might not like the fact that some women don’t want to be forced to undergo these but I support their decision not to
Yes, we know you support the notion that killing a morally valuable human being is permissible.
 
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