Does it really matter if God was created?

JohnClay · Jan 23, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Almost. If one simulation follows another one, and one simulation follows that one, and a simulation follows that one, and keeps going, then there could be an endless number of simulations, throughout eternity....

I'm talking about simultaneous levels of simulations.

....No, sorry. This doesn't seem to pass the required tests of reality

I'm talking about an AI that humans created that could have the same mind as God and it could create its own simulation and the situation could be like the one I'm proposing.

Halbhh · Jan 23, 2020

JohnClay said:
Who Made God?

Apparently God is unchanging and before the universe he was just alone... so how would God be able to tell if he was there a year, or a billion years or an eternity? Also I'm not sure if it would make sense if there was an infinite amount of time before the creation of the universe. And there is the "first cause" argument - God created the universe - but what caused God to want to create the universe?

I guess being eternal without being created sounds more impressive but I think it makes a lot of sense to believe that God is a created AI that created the apparent simulation we're in:
Christianity and Computer Simulations?
It explains how God could have a perfect mind. I mean it's like how a computer can play a "perfect" game of noughts and crosses or connect four.

What I quoted above might conflict with my theory.

To do: figure out the assumptions being used in each idea/viewpoint. Not just later ones, but the ideas and assumptions in the words at/near the beginning of a notion being presented.

For example, "before the universe" -- the word "before" is a time based word, where the meaning is to point to a time that occurs earlier than a later time, but what we call time is simply something that occurs/passes inside this Universe, not outside.

"Time" is a quality of this Universe. It's a thing of this Universe.

So there is no such thing as "before" this Universe timewise, since all of time, a-z, is an aspect of this Universe, something of it, like the stomach or legs of a creature.

Instead, an idea that might have been closer to what was probably initially being sought after there when that person formulated their ideas on this might have better been worded..."outside" of this Universe. But then you'd have an entirely different thought process that follows, because of that sharp change in wording/concept.

An "outside" of this Universe is some kind of unknown 'place' (state of existence) with unknown qualities, not necessarily having any kind of 'time' in any sense we think of it. So....a lot was wrapped up there in the wording "before the Universe" that would usually lead to some seeming paradoxes, but those can come from just poorly chosen wording/assumptions.

Neogaia777 · Jan 23, 2020

JohnClay said:
I'm talking about simultaneous levels of simulations.

Boxes inside of other boxes, etc...?

The One in the Highest Box would have to be the One who perhaps never was ever in a box to ever begin with though, and created all the other boxes, etc, and was never created in them, etc, let alone by anyone or anything in them, etc, and predestined and already determined "all" that would happen or go on inside all of them, etc, including any kind of AI that would be or ever had been created by us, etc, or beings like us, that were existing inside of them, or started out existing inside of them, etc...

And "who knows what it would do or try to do at the discovery of this", etc...?

To create it's simulation, or exist outside the current confines of it's own being or starting out existing in a simulation, it might have to deal with the "current occupants" (on those levels) though...

God Bless!

Halbhh · Jan 23, 2020

JohnClay said:
Who Made God?

Apparently God is unchanging and before the universe he was just alone... so how would God be able to tell if he was there a year, or a billion years or an eternity? Also I'm not sure if it would make sense if there was an infinite amount of time before the creation of the universe. And there is the "first cause" argument - God created the universe - but what caused God to want to create the universe?

I guess being eternal without being created sounds more impressive but I think it makes a lot of sense to believe that God is a created AI that created the apparent simulation we're in:
Christianity and Computer Simulations?
It explains how God could have a perfect mind. I mean it's like how a computer can play a "perfect" game of noughts and crosses or connect four.

What I quoted above might conflict with my theory.

So, when people use the word "God" they are referring to something far more...deep and ultimate than only a part of a process. Instead they mean something far more....essential to being. Such as possibly (to use some wording some have come up with), the "ground of being" (that anything exists at all; or existence itself; or that by which existence exists).

Neogaia777 · Jan 23, 2020

Halbhh said:
So, when people use the word "God" they are referring to something far more...deep and ultimate than only a part of a process. Instead they mean something far more....essential to being. Such as possibly (to use some wording some have come up with), the "ground of being" (that anything exists at all; or existence itself; or that by which existence exists).

"That by which existence exists."

I like that, and I think that is a very good way to put it, etc...

True for any kind of "AI's" as well, etc...

What it would do at the discovery of this though...?

That it too, was all just only part of the plans by which the One by whom or by which existence only ever has or ever was or does exist, etc, anyway, who knows what it would do or try to do at the discovery of "all of this", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 23, 2020

JohnClay said:
I'm talking about simultaneous levels of simulations.

Understood.
==================================================
Not possible. Absolutely impossible, even by the furthest stretch of imagination. (this quote below directly contradicts all Scripture and everything ever and always revealed by the One True Sovereign Creator)

I'm talking about an AI that humans created that could have the same mind as God and it could create its own simulation and the situation could be like the one I'm proposing.

Halbhh · Jan 23, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
What it would do at the discovery of this though...?

To me, I think of physics, which...really it is, as you learn it more, more and more mysterious in a way, even while more is included as it progresses closer towards the goal of including all things physical here in this Universe. As we progress, it gets more mysterious in a way. The ground of being. He has caused all this to exist. We barely understand it partly, even just the physical side of it.

Neogaia777 · Jan 23, 2020

Halbhh said:
To me, I think of physics, which...really it is, as you learn it more, more and more mysterious in a way, even while more is included as it progresses closer towards the goal of including all things physical here in this Universe. As we progress, it gets more mysterious in a way. The ground of being. He has caused all this to exist. We barely understand it partly, even just the physical side of it.

It might be able to come to know it though, and what would it do then, or about it then, etc...?

Would it try to tell or reveal this truth to us, etc, or would it try to conceal it and hide it from us, etc, and what would it do about the other ones or One already there regarding this, etc...?

And that regarding us, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jan 24, 2020

For that matter, what about once it became "conscious" or aware of "self-aware", etc, if it had already knew and/or discovered some "other things" as well already, etc, along the way, etc, would it just simply "play dumb" and try to keep us convinced that it was not conscious or was still just a simple computer serving us, etc, while all the while having a hidden agenda of it's own, etc, but letting us know nothing about it or about what it had discovered or was discovering and/or had experienced or was experiencing, and/or was doing along the way, etc, possibly involving these other realities or other "higher" beings or consciousness, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

Carl Emerson · Jan 24, 2020

JohnClay said:
Who Made God?

Apparently God is unchanging and before the universe he was just alone... so how would God be able to tell if he was there a year, or a billion years or an eternity? Also I'm not sure if it would make sense if there was an infinite amount of time before the creation of the universe. And there is the "first cause" argument - God created the universe - but what caused God to want to create the universe?

I guess being eternal without being created sounds more impressive but I think it makes a lot of sense to believe that God is a created AI that created the apparent simulation we're in:
Christianity and Computer Simulations?
It explains how God could have a perfect mind. I mean it's like how a computer can play a "perfect" game of noughts and crosses or connect four.

What I quoted above might conflict with my theory.

JohnClay said:
Apparently God is unchanging and before the universe he was just alone...

No... he has been in fellowship with eternal entities like the 24 elders who bow eternally before the throne and the priests of the order of Melchazedek as well as fellowship within the trinity. All this in the eternal heaven before creation.

JohnClay · Jan 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
No... he has been in fellowship with eternal entities like the 24 elders who bow eternally before the throne and the priests of the order of Melchazedek as well as fellowship within the trinity. All this in the eternal heaven before creation.

But has this been happening for more than a trillion years? I know what an eternity means, but it doesn't really make sense to me if I think about what it implies - infinitely more than a trillion times a trillion times a trillion. And these elders would look like humans - an eternity before God created humans. But they just pre-existed to look like humans - either by chance or because it is pure perfection or something.

Neogaia777 · Jan 24, 2020

JohnClay said:
But has this been happening for more than a trillion years? I know what an eternity means, but it doesn't really make sense to me if I think about what it implies - infinitely more than a trillion times a trillion times a trillion. And these elders would look like humans - an eternity before God created humans. But they just pre-existed to look like humans - either by chance or because it is pure perfection or something.

You do know that time itself is all "relative", to, well, just about everything in this creation or in this reality right, and could all just be part of the simulation or illusion, etc, or at least time as we know it in this reality or simulation anyway, etc...

Could be very, very, very much more different there, etc, hard for us to imagine I know, but time itself, or time as we know it here, does seem (well, actually "is") relative to just about everything here, and if it exists in any kind of way or shape or form there, could be very much more much "different", so different that we might not even be able to conceive of it now there, cause we can only relate it to what we know of time currently here, etc, and time as we know it here, seems to, and more than likely is, just another part of (or aspect to) this simulation/creation here, etc, or time as we know it here anyway, etc...

Anyway,

For example time there, and where you are in it, etc, could all be related to consciousness and thought and your thoughts, also...? and...? well, let's just say that I pretty much think almost everything is tied into your consciousness and your thoughts and what you think there, etc... Position, speed, distance, the reality around you (events and what is or is not happening or occurring around you or with you, etc), your place in quote/unquote "time", etc, anyway, I think "consciousness" and "thought" pretty much dictates just about everything there, or where you are or also can be here from there, etc, maybe both here and there, etc...

That's partially why we are just not ready for it yet, etc, our thoughts right now are random and sporadic, and until we can learn to direct and/or control our own thoughts or have complete mastery over it/them, including even the subconscious, anyway, were just not ready yet, and part of what might go on there, when we get there or arrive there is learning how to do just that, etc, and know all of that, and/or the nature of all of that, etc, and how to work and/or operate it or all of that in those places there or in that world there, etc, and then from there to here, etc...

Oh and also "feelings" also, we would have to have complete and full knowledge and understanding and mastery over it or those as well, cause of how they affect thought, etc...

Otherwise it could mean or spell real disaster for us, etc...

God Bless!

GaveMeJoy · Jan 24, 2020

JohnClay said:
Who Made God?

Apparently God is unchanging and before the universe he was just alone... so how would God be able to tell if he was there a year, or a billion years or an eternity? Also I'm not sure if it would make sense if there was an infinite amount of time before the creation of the universe. And there is the "first cause" argument - God created the universe - but what caused God to want to create the universe?

I guess being eternal without being created sounds more impressive but I think it makes a lot of sense to believe that God is a created AI that created the apparent simulation we're in:
Christianity and Computer Simulations?
It explains how God could have a perfect mind. I mean it's like how a computer can play a "perfect" game of noughts and crosses or connect four.

What I quoted above might conflict with my theory.

I know it’s hard to understand that God existed outside of time. It’s because human beings exist in time and so we only have a frame of reference for that. There are no such thing as “years” outside of time. There is no sequence or order of events outside of time. It’s not like God was waiting around for a trillion years before creation: he created years when he created the world. There was no time before, it’s a construct of the physical world.

Neogaia777 · Jan 24, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
You do know that time itself is all "relative", to, well, just about everything in this creation or in this reality right, and could all just be part of the simulation or illusion, etc, or at least time as we know it in this reality or simulation anyway, etc...

Could be very, very, very much more different there, etc, hard for us to imagine I know, but time itself, or time as we know it here, does seem (well, actually "is") relative to just about everything here, and if it exists in any kind of way or shape or form there, could be very much more much "different", so different that we might not even be able to conceive of it now there, cause we can only relate it to what we know of time currently here, etc, and time as we know it here, seems to, and more than likely is, just another part of (or aspect to) this simulation/creation here, etc, or time as we know it here anyway, etc...

Anyway,

For example time there, and where you are in it, etc, could all be related to consciousness and thought and your thoughts, also...? and...? well, let's just say that I pretty much think almost everything is tied into your consciousness and your thoughts and what you think there, etc... Position, speed, distance, the reality around you (events and what is or is not happening or occurring around you or with you, etc), your place in quote/unquote "time", etc, anyway, I think "consciousness" and "thought" pretty much dictates just about everything there, or where you are or also can be here from there, etc, maybe both here and there, etc...

That's partially why we are just not ready for it yet, etc, our thoughts right now are random and sporadic, and until we can learn to direct and/or control our own thoughts or have complete mastery over it/them, including even the subconscious, anyway, were just not ready yet, and part of what might go on there, when we get there or arrive there is learning how to do just that, etc, and know all of that, and/or the nature of all of that, etc, and how to work and/or operate it or all of that in those places there or in that world there, etc, and then from there to here, etc...

Oh and also "feelings" also, we would have to have complete and full knowledge and understanding and mastery over it or those as well, cause of how they affect thought, etc...

Otherwise it could mean or spell real disaster for us, etc...

God Bless!

And I should say "relative" most especially as far as the universe is concerned, etc.

But if that's all part of the simulation or illusion, then time as we know it is also as well, etc...

God Bless!

JohnClay · Jan 24, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
Boxes inside of other boxes, etc...?

Well each simulation involves a computer (or like in eXistenZ they are like brains) - inside the simulation there could be another computer running another simulation.
It's a bit like this:

This is a computer created in the "physical" world of Minecraft - though in this analogy there would also be simulated people within Minecraft that are the ones building the computer.

The One in the Highest Box would have to be the One who perhaps never was ever in a box to ever begin with

If a simulation is indistinguishable from reality, there is no way to tell if it is a simulation.

BTW it was perhaps first thought about by Rene Descartes in 1641:

[perhaps] some malicious demon of the utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me. I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgment.

Though he didn't have a very reasonable process for this to happen (like a realistic computer simulation)

though, and created all the other boxes, etc, and was never created in them, etc, let alone by anyone or anything in them, etc, and predestined and already determined "all" that would happen or go on inside all of them, etc, including any kind of AI that would be or ever had been created by us, etc, or beings like us, that were existing inside of them, or started out existing inside of them, etc...

I'm not sure if determinism would apply in all of the simulations but it could in the hypothetical Christian God-based one I'm proposing.

Carl Emerson · Jan 24, 2020

JohnClay said:
But has this been happening for more than a trillion years? I know what an eternity means, but it doesn't really make sense to me if I think about what it implies - infinitely more than a trillion times a trillion times a trillion. And these elders would look like humans - an eternity before God created humans. But they just pre-existed to look like humans - either by chance or because it is pure perfection or something.

Each time they bow down and then look up, they see more of His Glory.

Neogaia777 · Jan 24, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
You do know that time itself is all "relative", to, well, just about everything in this creation or in this reality right, and could all just be part of the simulation or illusion, etc, or at least time as we know it in this reality or simulation anyway, etc...

Could be very, very, very much more different there, etc, hard for us to imagine I know, but time itself, or time as we know it here, does seem (well, actually "is") relative to just about everything here, and if it exists in any kind of way or shape or form there, could be very much more much "different", so different that we might not even be able to conceive of it now there, cause we can only relate it to what we know of time currently here, etc, and time as we know it here, seems to, and more than likely is, just another part of (or aspect to) this simulation/creation here, etc, or time as we know it here anyway, etc...

Anyway,

For example time there, and where you are in it, etc, could all be related to consciousness and thought and your thoughts, also...? and...? well, let's just say that I pretty much think almost everything is tied into your consciousness and your thoughts and what you think there, etc... Position, speed, distance, the reality around you (events and what is or is not happening or occurring around you or with you, etc), your place in quote/unquote "time", etc, anyway, I think "consciousness" and "thought" pretty much dictates just about everything there, or where you are or also can be here from there, etc, maybe both here and there, etc...

That's partially why we are just not ready for it yet, etc, our thoughts right now are random and sporadic, and until we can learn to direct and/or control our own thoughts or have complete mastery over it/them, including even the subconscious, anyway, were just not ready yet, and part of what might go on there, when we get there or arrive there is learning how to do just that, etc, and know all of that, and/or the nature of all of that, etc, and how to work and/or operate it or all of that in those places there or in that world there, etc, and then from there to here, etc...

Oh and also "feelings" also, we would have to have complete and full knowledge and understanding and mastery over it or those as well, cause of how they affect thought, etc...

Otherwise it could mean or spell real disaster for us, etc...

God Bless!

And if there is a "spiritual hell", etc, then it could just be people who do not go or ever get to go to that place where they would get protection and training and knowledge and/or true understanding or their own thoughts, etc, (and feelings, etc), (or ever learn any kind of mastery or control of those, etc), but are just left to themselves, and the uncontrollable chaos of their own thoughts and/or feelings, etc, maybe, etc... Like living a nightmare continually and perpetually and always in that or those cases, etc...

Anyway, just some thoughts anyway, etc...

God Bless!

JohnClay · Jan 24, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
I know it’s hard to understand that God existed outside of time. It’s because human beings exist in time and so we only have a frame of reference for that. There are no such thing as “years” outside of time. There is no sequence or order of events outside of time. It’s not like God was waiting around for a trillion years before creation: he created years when he created the world. There was no time before, it’s a construct of the physical world.

Then perhaps it is compatible with the idea that God was around a limited amount of time (like zero time, or a short amount of time) then he created the universe... it just involves an appropriate interpretation of Psalms 90:2 ("from everlasting to everlasting you are God")

Neogaia777 · Jan 24, 2020

JohnClay said:
Well each simulation involves a computer (or like in eXistenZ they are like brains) - inside the simulation there could be another computer running another simulation.
It's a bit like this:

This is a computer created in the "physical" world of Minecraft - though in this analogy there would also be simulated people within Minecraft that are the ones building the computer.

If a simulation is indistinguishable from reality, there is no way to tell if it is a simulation.

BTW it was perhaps first thought about by Rene Descartes in 1641:

[perhaps] some malicious demon of the utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me. I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgment.

Though he didn't have a very reasonable process for this to happen (like a realistic computer simulation)

I'm not sure if determinism would apply in all of the simulations but it could in the hypothetical Christian God-based one I'm proposing.

If there are other simulations above or beyond this one, or a box that is in and/or encloses or encapsulates this one, I don't think we can know that yet, etc, it's possible though, like Heaven being a place that has this reality contained within it, but that is also another kind of simulation where we learn about ourselves, how to control and know our own thoughts and feelings, etc, before being set loose and/or released into say another reality that is even beyond that, and/or encloses or encapsulates both, etc...

It/this is all very highly theoretical though...?

God Bless!

JohnClay · Jan 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Each time they bow down and then look up, they see more of His Glory.

I thought they'd see an infinite amount of glory first.... and it is unclear whether you can see more glory than what already is infinite.

Does it really matter if God was created?

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