Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

civilwarbuff · Jan 23, 2020

bekkilyn said:
The bible doesn't say how leadership *should* be done in the household. The bible only says how Greco-Roman households existed in the 1st century, and then Paul used the existing structure to teach the Gentiles about Christ. Paul was in no way implying that the existing structure of a single male patriarch who held the power of life and death over his wife, children, and slaves was an ideal family structure. He simply had to use something that was familiar to Gentiles for an analogy that might make sense to them.

Today, our household structures are more egalitarian and we don't *own* our wives and children, and we don't have or even approve of having slaves, so Paul would have likely used a different analogy for us were he here with us in this century. In fact, our more egalitarian households are closer to the ideal of Christ than the master-slave structure of Greco-Roman times.

God is unchanging, man is not. Best to hang your hat on the word of God rather than the word of man......

bekkilyn · Jan 23, 2020

civilwarbuff said:
I don't see any reference to Gentiles in that quote, do you @bekkilyn ? Then try not to deflect on the subject please.....

Yes, I don't see any reference to Gentiles in that quote either. That's the entire point. If you're going to use the excuse that women should be ruled over because all the 12 apostles are men, then you also need to figure out how you're going to avoid the fact that all 12 apostles are also Jewish men and somehow explain away why Gentile men aren't rebelling against God when they take on leadership roles obviously only meant for Jewish people.

bekkilyn · Jan 23, 2020

civilwarbuff said:
God is unchanging, man is not. Best to hang your hat on the word of God rather than the word of man......

And this response of yours is relevant because....?

(Thanks for proving that you didn't even bother to read what I wrote, so why you even bothered to respond with a statement that has nothing to do anything I said, I can't imagine.)

Gregorikos · Jan 23, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Zero Scripture ???

1 Cor 11
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Carl, you understand that "woman" (or "wife") and "household" are not synonymous, right?

bekkilyn · Jan 23, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
I had hoped that in the discussion we could seperate the issue of abuse from the issue of God ordained male leadership but I guess that sadly, there is too much pain to expect that.

Don't you mean God ordained Jewish leadership?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 23, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
I had hoped that in the discussion we could seperate the issue of abuse from the issue of God ordained male leadership but I guess that sadly, there is too much pain to expect that.

No, I see this a different way.
When there is so much pain, or any pain, people choose to turn to Yahweh the Creator to be healed, helped, nurtured, soothed, trained?, to receive from Him His Way, as Written;
OR
they turn to something else, whether or not it increases the pain and destruction, or whether or not it provides sensory temporary seeming relief...

i.e. there is not too much pain to expect people to turn to Yahweh to believe Him;
but there is too much unbelief everywhere, I think, to expect more than a few to believe Him.

Belief is the issue. Pain is irrelevant .....

civilwarbuff · Jan 23, 2020

bekkilyn said:
Yes, I don't see any reference to Gentiles in that quote either. That's the entire point. If you're going to use the excuse that women should be ruled over because all the 12 apostles are men, then you also need to figure out how you're going to avoid the fact that all 12 apostles are also Jewish men and somehow explain away why Gentile men aren't rebelling against God when they take on leadership roles obviously only meant for Jewish people.

No, we don't need to figure out anything unless, of course, you are putting man above God who has already done all the figuring for us.

bekkilyn said:
And this response of yours is relevant because....?

Because it is true....you are trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to argue against God's decisions. You are putting your own wisdom above God's wisdom....

bekkilyn said:
(Thanks for proving that you didn't even bother to read what I wrote, so why you even bothered to respond with a statement that has nothing to do anything I said, I can't imagine.)

It seems as though you imagine a lot....just not correctly as according to God.

civilwarbuff · Jan 23, 2020

Gregorikos said:
Carl, you understand that "woman" (or "wife") and "household" are not synonymous, right?

Ok, explain that statement.....

bekkilyn · Jan 23, 2020

civilwarbuff said:
No, we don't need to figure out anything unless, of course, you are putting man above God who has already done all the figuring for us.

Because it is true....you are trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to argue against God's decisions. You are putting your own wisdom above God's wisdom....

It seems as though you imagine a lot....just not correctly as according to God.

I had no idea that Carl Emerson was God! Wow!

civilwarbuff · Jan 23, 2020

bekkilyn said:
I had no idea that Carl Emerson was God! Wow!

I had no idea he was either. Where did you make that discovery from? While you are pondering that can you be courteous enough to directly reply to my comments?

Gregorikos · Jan 23, 2020

civilwarbuff said:
Ok, explain that statement.....

OK. This isn't difficult. I said, "There is zero scripture that says the husband is to be the "head of the HOUSEHOLD."

To which, @Carl Emerson replied with a Scripture that says "man is the head of the WOMAN."

Do you see the difference there? Do you believe the words household and woman are synonymous?

civilwarbuff · Jan 23, 2020

Gregorikos said:
OK. This isn't difficult. I said, "There is zero scripture that says the husband is to be the "head of the HOUSEHOLD."

To which, @Carl Emerson replied with a Scripture that says "man is the head of the WOMAN."

Do you see the difference there? Do you believe the words household and woman are synonymous?

So a man married to a woman is not a household?

bekkilyn · Jan 23, 2020

civilwarbuff said:
I had no idea he was either. Where did you make that discovery from? While you are pondering that can you be courteous enough to directly reply to my comments?

Well just in case you aren't being obtuse on purpose as I suspect, I had been responding to Carl Emerson's posts when you so kindly came in and informed me that I was arguing against God.

As for the rest of your comments, you've posted nothing worthwhile to merit a response considering you didn't even bother to read my posts.

bekkilyn · Jan 23, 2020

Gregorikos said:
OK. This isn't difficult. I said, "There is zero scripture that says the husband is to be the "head of the HOUSEHOLD."

To which, @Carl Emerson replied with a Scripture that says "man is the head of the WOMAN."

Do you see the difference there? Do you believe the words household and woman are synonymous?

Maybe he was suggesting that taking a rib from a man's household is a crime.

civilwarbuff · Jan 23, 2020

bekkilyn said:
I had been responding to Carl Emerson's posts when you so kindly came in and informed me that I was arguing against God.

Well, it came across to me that you were arguing against the word of God which is essentially the same thing.

bekkilyn said:
As for the rest of your comments, you've posted nothing worthwhile to merit a response considering you didn't even bother to read my posts.

I have been following this thread since it started so yes, I read your posts. Is there some reason you have to believe my comments are not worthy of a response?

Gregorikos · Jan 23, 2020

civilwarbuff said:
So a man married to a woman is not a household?

No. Typically a household consists of more people. But the Bible never says the husband is the head of the children or the head of the slaves.

Why do you suppose that is?

civilwarbuff · Jan 23, 2020

Gregorikos said:
Typically a household consists of more people.

Is that a biblical statement or just your opinion?

Gregorikos said:
But the Bible never says the husband is the head of the children or the head of the slaves.

So, when the temple was functioning who went and offered the sacrifices for atonement?
New International Version
"Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household.

Carl Emerson · Jan 23, 2020

Paidiske said:
It's not just about pain. It's about the fact that these two things are inseparable. Giving leadership to men and not women is abuse.

So was God abusive choosing the 12?

Carl Emerson · Jan 23, 2020

bekkilyn said:
There are also a whole heck of a lot of Gentiles, both male and female, that won't be governing ANY part of Israel, so are you suggesting that non-Jewish men should remain in submissive roles to Jewish men. After all, God chose Jewish men for a reason and that reason is obviously that they are of just superior quality to Gentile men (and all women) and are the only men qualified to lead, shepherd, and rule.

Better get rid of any non-Jewish men who chose to be church pastors since they are rebelling against God and just pretending that they were called by the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure why you jump to such conclusions.

I am just referring to this scripture...

Luke 22
29 And I bestow on you a kingdom, just as My Father has bestowed one on Me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Clearly the 12 men chosen to be apostles have an eternal role as judges.

Carl Emerson · Jan 23, 2020

bekkilyn said:
Don't you mean God ordained Jewish leadership?

No, Adam was way before the nation of Israel was born.

Why did Jesus choose 12 men.

Well-Known Member

Contemplative Christian

Contemplative Christian

Ordinary Mystic

Contemplative Christian

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Contemplative Christian

Well-Known Member

Ordinary Mystic

Well-Known Member

Contemplative Christian

Contemplative Christian

Well-Known Member

Ordinary Mystic

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads