Which of the following people are saved?

A_Thinker said:

Why are we speculating upon the salvation of others ???

Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just ?

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It's a thought exercise on our own beliefs on the nature of salvation itself, with complicating factors. To think about our doctrines. Not to pass judgements.

timothyu said:

Considering few address the Gospel of the Kingdom.. Jesus' gospel.. then no.

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What I was getting at is that there is no end to the depth of, for example, exactly what happened when Christ paid our sin; what exactly did he do, how did he do it? Or, how is it possible that we are not what we were made for, until we are one with Christ --I mean, what does that even mean?

Mark Quayle said:

What I was getting at is that there is no end to the depth of, for example, exactly what happened when Christ paid our sin; what exactly did he do, how did he do it? Or, how is it possible that we are not what we were made for, until we are one with Christ --I mean, what does that even mean?

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He didn't sin, so as in the old testament sacrifices, that all represented His future sacrifice, he was a lamb without blemish, and His blood was spilled, just like the way the OT sacrifices you have to spill and sprinkle the animal's blood. Blood atones for sin, the blood of something pure, cleanses the unclean. Blood represents life, and the punishment for sin is death, life for life.

mcarans said:

For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

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A person who has (at some point in their life before death) trusted in Jesus for the free gift of Eternal Life is saved and has Eternal Life.

As for a person before the age of accountability (really what ever that means), like what God judged the Israelite's who sinned in Numbers 14, God judged everyone 20 years and above. So would that age 19 and below apply to salvation the Bible does not say.

Jamdoc said:

He didn't sin, so as in the old testament sacrifices, that all represented His future sacrifice, he was a lamb without blemish, and His blood was spilled, just like the way the OT sacrifices you have to spill and sprinkle the animal's blood. Blood atones for sin, the blood of something pure, cleanses the unclean. Blood represents life, and the punishment for sin is death, life for life.

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I know all the words. I've been around it all my life. But the older I get the more I see there is to learn. I get a certain sense of it, of course, but the depth! I'm pretty sure when we get there we will feel like we had no clue all this time.

Jamdoc said:

I think the verse from David is pretty good on that too, I mean we DO believe David was an old testament saint and is in heaven right now right? If David's words in scripture are divinely inspired, and David felt comforted that he would one day go to his son (and that he would be going to heaven) then I think that lends itself to the innocence of young children in God's eyes.

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that’s definitely a legit interpretation.
I don’t necessarily think that everything said by Old Testament authors is meant to be interpreted as theological doctrine in this way. For example, psalm 88 the psalmist is angry and says things like God abandoned him etc but this is not to be taken as a statement of truth. Another possible explanation would be go to him, as in die, more carrying the point he was trying to make that he can’t raise his son through fasting, instead of a theological assertion of the existence of an age of accountability and his own salvation. I actually believe in the concept of grace period however it sometimes feels the idea is more about what people think is “fair” which is not relevant. God isn’t a fair God he’s a just God, and he would be completely justified in allowing any person who doesn’t hear and accept the gospel to parish in their sins, because the wages of sin is death. That’s more the point, God doesn’t owe anyone grace, not even children, and I have two little ones so I’m not just talking about nonsense it’s important to me to find biblical support for this one.

d taylor said:

A person who has (at some point in their life before death) trusted in Jesus for the free gift of Eternal Life is saved and has Eternal Life.

As for a person before the age of accountability (really what ever that means), like what God judged the Israelite's who sinned in Numbers 14, God judged everyone 20 years and above. So would that age 19 and below apply to salvation the Bible does not say.

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but god instructed Joshua (I think that’s the guy) to kill Achan and his children and wife and livestock because he stole. He instructed the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child when taking cities at times, he killed David’s infant son with illness intentionally as a punishment for David. These are all things in our bible we need to know and they do not make God less just or holy.

Mark Quayle said:

I know all the words. I've been around it all my life. But the older I get the more I see there is to learn. I get a certain sense of it, of course, but the depth! I'm pretty sure when we get there we will feel like we had no clue all this time.

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Agree

GaveMeJoy said:

that’s definitely a legit interpretation.
I don’t necessarily think that everything said by Old Testament authors is meant to be interpreted as theological doctrine in this way. For example, psalm 88 the psalmist is angry and says things like God abandoned him etc but this is not to be taken as a statement of truth. Another possible explanation would be go to him, as in die, more carrying the point he was trying to make that he can’t raise his son through fasting, instead of a theological assertion of the existence of an age of accountability and his own salvation. I actually believe in the concept of grace period however it sometimes feels the idea is more about what people think is “fair” which is not relevant. God isn’t a fair God he’s a just God, and he would be completely justified in allowing any person who doesn’t hear and accept the gospel to parish in their sins, because the wages of sin is death. That’s more the point, God doesn’t owe anyone grace, not even children, and I have two little ones so I’m not just talking about nonsense it’s important to me to find biblical support for this one.

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I get that but my belief and what scripture seems to support is that eternal punishment is only for the sins that you personally commit. A baby doesn't commit sins, so why would it be condemned? Adults are condemned because we commit sin. Some people try to reach out and say that an "innocent tribesman" on say the Sentinel Islands shouldn't be condemned because they never heard the Gospel so they never had a chance to be saved. But they are condemned because they are living in sin, there is no such thing as an "innocent tribesman". When a missionary tried to contact them they murdered him, they've shown hostility to anyone who tried to contact them. We don't know about their religion or worship but I'm 99.99% sure it isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, so likely they have other Gods. So when final judgement came, you'd see the condemnation of people who worshiped idols and devils, who murdered anyone who tried to come to them in friendship, much less preach them the gospel, and you'd think "that's a just punishment"
Would you honestly be able to say the same thing about a stillborn baby who never did anything much less anything wrong being condemned to the lake of fire? Does someone who has never sinned because they were never born need a savior to redeem them form their sins?
The verses quoting Jesus Himself lead to young children being innocent in God's eyes and the verse from David leads to God bringing the spirits of young innocent children to His presence

Mark Quayle said:

I know all the words. I've been around it all my life. But the older I get the more I see there is to learn. I get a certain sense of it, of course, but the depth! I'm pretty sure when we get there we will feel like we had no clue all this time.

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So what are you getting at here, are you thinking along the lines of us living vicariously "through" Jesus Christ or something? Some sort of eastern religion "become one with everything"? Cause Scripture says we get resurrected into new bodies so I don't think it's going to be some sort of eastern singular existence thing, makes me think of the NGE anime I saw where that's what they did is make all humans disintigrate into some orange fluid like tang and merged all their consciousnesses together. It was weird. It's no wonder the main character rejected that existence.

Jamdoc said:

as for thinking the Lord doesn't punish the flesh for transgressions after being saved, that's just not biblical.

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It's not what happens either.
The Lord corrects us when we sin, and convicts us through his Spirit, yes - but that's not the same as being punished "in the flesh"; receiving some kind of illness.
What illness did Peter receive for denying Jesus?
What illness did he receive for eating with Gentiles and then stopping, leading to an argument with Paul and the accusation that he was a hypocrite, Galatians 2:11-13?
What illnesses did the 12 receive when they failed to trust Jesus, or believe his words, e.g Mark 8:17, Luke 9:46?
There are, and have been, Christians who've made the headlines because they've sinned big time - had an affair, been found guilty of fraud or whatever. There has been no report to say that they've been struck down by illness as a punishment.

Jesus took the punishment for our sin so that we wouldn't have to. If God was going to send illness as punishment for sin, or to correct a believer, there would be no point in Jesus having died. God could say to each of us, "you've sinned: the wages of sin is death; I'm going to save your soul but kill your body because of your sin". There'd be no Christians in the world - everyone who accepted Jesus and was born again would then die because of their sin, but their souls would be safe with God. There would then be no one to serve God, carry out the Great Commission and so on.
Clearly, it doesn't happen like that.

Jamdoc said:

Why every son? Because we all sin, even after being saved.

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Yes, but we aren't all punished with illness or other problems.
If we were, every Christian in the world would constantly be in poor health, or just recovering. In fact, no one would recover from one illness before being hit with another. No one has perfect thoughts/motives/desires 24/7.

Jamdoc said:

Paul is trying to reassure people that if bad things are happening in their life, it's not because God doesn't love them, or God doesn't care about them, or they're not truly saved. Paul is telling them quite the opposite, that because they're dealing with these afflictions and negative things happening in their life, that God is correcting them, disciplining them for sin.

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That may have been the case then.
The book of Hebrews was written to a church which contained Gentile, and Jewish, Christians, and they were facing a time of persecution, or would be in the future. It seems that some of the Christians were thinking of trying to escape that persecution by going back to the synagogues and declaring that they were Jews. The trouble was, though, that in order to have been accepted by the synagogues, they would have had to publicly declare that they had made a mistake and that Jesus was NOT the Messiah. So when they were persecuted, they could save themselves from death - by renouncing their faith.
Paul is encouraging them not to do this.
This is why he says that if someone turns away, it is impossible to turn back again; they couldn't renounce their faith in Jesus, become Jewish until persecution had passed, become Christians again, and renounce their faith again the next time there was persecution.
They may have been kept physically safe by denying Jesus, but they would have lost far more spiritually.

This is not at all the same as saying that every time we get a cold, tummy bug, cancer or break a bone, that is punishment from God for having sinned.

Jamdoc said:

That disciplining over bad behavior can be a comfort because hey, at least you know God is with you. But that said, it should be a correcting action, it should make you examine your deeds and think "am I walking contrary to God, am I EARNING stripes?" if so, well, you don't want to earn more stripes do you?

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What about those who have pretty healthy and problem free lives and yet ARE disobeying God - or those who are not disobeying God and yet are in wheelchairs?
As I said, why isn't every single Christian in the world in a permanent state of ill health? You yourself have admitted that we all sin as Christians.

Jamdoc said:

I get that but my belief and what scripture seems to support is that eternal punishment is only for the sins that you personally commit. A baby doesn't commit sins, so why would it be condemned?

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Yet babies can be born with illnesses or disabilities - which, according to you, are punishment, or correction, from God for sin.
I think you may have just disproved your own argument.

Strong in Him said:

Yet babies can be born with illnesses or disabilities - which, according to you, are punishment, or correction, from God for sin.
I think you may have just disproved your own argument.

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I said illness can be chastisement from the Lord, not necessarily are. They can be biologically caused, or in some cases, such as the blind man in the gospels that Jesus heals, they're afflicted so that God's glory might be shown in them.
If you want to explain another meaning to Hebrews 12, by all means.

Jamdoc said:

I said illness can be chastisement from the Lord, not necessarily are.

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And I disagree.

Jamdoc said:

If you want to explain another meaning to Hebrews 12, by all means.

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I'm not "explaining another meaning"; I'm giving you the historical background and what commentators say about it.
If you want to interpret it to fit your own agenda; go ahead.

Jamdoc said:

It's a thought exercise on our own beliefs on the nature of salvation itself, with complicating factors. To think about our doctrines. Not to pass judgements.

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Then I think that you have to factor in God's intent ... which is pretty clear in the scriptures.

Per the Bible ... God is going to save everyone that He can ...

Jamdoc said:

Grace is grace, works is works. If you have works involved it's no longer grace. You don't work for a gift, a gift is undeserved, unearned. Works are something you should do anyway, obedience to the law is something you should do anyway, out of love, but it's not what saves us.

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I recognize the verse.

Romans 4:4.

Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.


I believe Paul here is referring to "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace when he refers to "works." So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

Bible Highlighter said:

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

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So ... given that you began the christian walk in the spirit, ... and you going to keep it in the flesh (i.e. by works of responsibility) ?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that brings life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jamdoc said:

Grace is grace, works is works. If you have works involved it's no longer grace. You don't work for a gift, a gift is undeserved, unearned. Works are something you should do anyway, obedience to the law is something you should do anyway, out of love, but it's not what saves us.

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Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average
Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law). All one has to do is look at the context to see that Paul was referring to the "Old Law" when he spoke generically of the "law."

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

#3. An Understanding on the Pharisee's false beliefs according to the Bible:


#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Jamdoc said:

Grace is grace, works is works. If you have works involved it's no longer grace. You don't work for a gift, a gift is undeserved, unearned. Works are something you should do anyway, obedience to the law is something you should do anyway, out of love, but it's not what saves us.

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Here are the verses for your reference
to read on the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."


A description of the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism is described at the Jerusalem Council:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
   
   
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Paul also fought against Circumcision Salvationism:

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

Conclusion:

So when Paul spoke negatively against the words "Law," and "works," he was referring to Law Alone Salvationism via by the Old Law (the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or contract) because "Circumcision Salvationism" was a serious problem during that time. The heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" can be seen in Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians by simply looking at the context (i.e. By skipping back in Scripture or by skipping ahead).

Jamdoc said:

Grace is grace, works is works. If you have works involved it's no longer grace. You don't work for a gift, a gift is undeserved, unearned. Works are something you should do anyway, obedience to the law is something you should do anyway, out of love, but it's not what saves us. We're saved because of a substitution, Jesus Christ for us. That's Grace. You have to put your whole faith that Jesus' finished work on the Cross is what is saving you, and nothing you could have done personally would save you. You have to have faith as if you did absolutely nothing else, just put your future entirely in the hands of Jesus and freefall for Him to catch you. Then do works and obey the law why? Because you think if you don't Jesus won't catch you? That's not putting faith in Jesus. No, you obey the law and do works because you love God and want to serve Him. Some people, are very limited in what works they can do. I'm a cripple, most days, I can't walk more than a dozen feet or so. I don't have a wheelchair either. So what works am I going to do?
I HAVE to place my entire faith in Jesus, because I have no faith in myself to be able to do things to please God. If it were my deeds that earned my way into God's presence, I'd be doomed.

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Romans 11:6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

P.S. I'm sure that you do plenty in service to God. I just read your enlightening testimony.

Every encouraging word, every prayer in support of God's work, as people see you persevere in the faith and joy in the Lord ...

"Not by might ... not by power, but by My Spirit", says the Lord ...