I do not know why i have to believe in Jesus

Kostilaks said:

I do not know why I have to believe in Jesus. I cant understand faith.

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The God who created the universe and sets the rules created a system of justice. Unfortunately the standard for "good" is too high for anyone to achieve. None of us can be righteous in an of our own actions, so we need to be rescued from our sin.

Jesus is the only viable means of rescue. Jesus was the only one in the history of the world good enough to be counted as righteous according to God's standard of good and evil, right and wrong, just and unjust. In order to be saved, we need to be counted as righteous, but since we can't do it on our own, we need to have Jesus' righteousness applied to our account.

This is where faith comes in. Faith is the means whereby God has allowed the righteousness that we could not obtain on our own can be credited to us. The way this works is thus:

• God preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham (Gal 3:8, 16)
• Abraham believes the gospel and is credited with righteousness (Gen 15:6, Gal 3:6, Rom 4:3,9)
• God makes a covenant with Abraham, promising he'll be the "father of many nations" and that the descendants from those nations would inherit the righteousness he was given as an everlasting inheritance (Gen 17:7)
• God says that the way we qualify as an inheritor of the righteousness given to Abraham is to have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had (Col 1:12, Gal 3:6-9, Rom 4:11-17, Eph 1:13-14)
• Jesus comes to earth lives a perfect, righteous life
• Jesus redeems us by exchanging his righteousness for our sinfulness and dies on the cross (Gal 3:13, 2Cor 5:21)
• Jesus' righteousness is given to Abraham making it available to all of his descendants
• Those with the same faith in the gospel as Abraham are qualified as his descendants and inherit the righteousness
• Jesus qualifies as an heir of Abraham and inherits back his own righteousness through the covenant God made with Abraham and is resurrected from the dead - proving the covenant is valid and in effect.

No other system is logically and legally consistent. No other system has assurance. Additionally, we can look to the written record of the New Testament and the specifically the 4 eye-witness testimonies of the resurrection of Jesus, demonstrating that this covenant system God developed has actually been effective at raising someone from the dead (proving it's validity). There were over 500 witnesses to the resurrected Christ.


Since Jesus, therefore, verified the covenant was effective at resurrecting someone from the dead, we can have full assurance it will be effective in us. No other religion can claim such assurance.

Jesus could have kept his own righteousness and not died... or raised himself from the dead by his own righteousness. Instead, he allowed himself to be taken and killed and then waited on God the Father to raise him from the dead through the "Everlasting covenant" made with Abraham.

What about evolution? how does that goes with Christianity?

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No, evolution is itself a competing religion. Evolution is not science. Science is the realm of observation, testing, repeating. No one ever observed it. Even if it were true, it happens too slowly to observe today. In fact, what we observe today makes it impossible... for example, the mutation rates are many orders of magnitude to slow make evolution possible, plus what we actually observe is devolution, not evolution. Our DNA is losing information over time, not gaining it. It's going in the wrong direction for evolution to be true.

what about the stoning children in Deuteronomy 21? It says something like to stone disobeying children but Jesus did not stone the woman.

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All have sinned, and therefore DESERVE death. God's mercy doesn't' make sense unless we first understand what we need mercy for. We don't understand how bad our sin is. Let me help you understand. Take the action of killing a living creature; lets say you kill an ant -- is this a huge evil? Probably not. Lets say you kill a family's most beloved pet dog. This hurts them and they miss the dog. This is the same action - killing a living creature - but we could all agree that killing the loved dog is worse than killing the ant. What about killing another human being? Is this the same or worse than killing the dog? We could all agree that it is worse than killing the dog. So the same 3 actions got more evil because of whom they were committed against. Now how evil would a sin against an INFINITE creator be? Because of the infinite nature of God, a sin against him is INFINITELY EVIL. An infinitely evil action DESERVES an infinite punishment.

I find some verses in the Old Testament very different and scarier than the verse in the New Testament. why?

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The old testament is The Law. It shows us WHY we need to be rescued.

What about some contradictions in ages and chronologies?

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There are none. The Bible's ages and chronologies are authoritative.

Isn't it logical for some people to believe the Scriptures because they give them hope and some people not to believe the Scriptures because they can not be proved if they are valid or not.

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Would you say it is logical for people standing on a train track with a train about to crush them to debate whether or not getting crushed by a train is a good thing or a bad thing?

We know all men die... faith in Christ offers eternal life. The question isn't whether we think eternal life is good... but do we want it.

d taylor said:

Being raised in a christian family does not make a person a christian.

If you believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah from The Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for the free gift of His Eternal Life. Then you have been born again and are now a child of God and have Eternal Life.

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This can be used for almost 80% of the threads on this board. I should just start pasting this as a reply in most threads....haha But seriously, it really is the only answer

GodsGrace101 said:

What do you think righteous means?

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I have understood from the Bible that righteous means wisdom of the just, right understanding that makes person also act righteously. I think it is like in the parable of good and bad tree. If person is righteous, he produces righteous fruit and if person is not unrighteous, he produces unrighteous fruit. From fruit one can recognize who is righteous. But fruit is not the thing that makes someone righteous. Fruit is only a result. What person is, determines what he does. What person does, doesn’t determine what he is.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Wisdom of the just I get from here:

He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:17

In Bible righteousness is something that comes visible in actions. For example:

The wicked borrow, and don't pay back, But the righteous give generously.
Ps. 37:21

The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom, But the perverse tongue will be cut off. The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable, But the mouth of the wicked is perverse.
Pro. 10:31-32

The thoughts of the righteous are just, But the advice of the wicked is deceitful… … A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel… … A righteous person is cautious in friendship, But the way of the wicked leads them astray.
Pro. 12:5,10,26

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace… … The light of the righteous shines brightly, But the lamp of the wicked is snuffed out.
Pro. 13:5,9

There are those who covet greedily all the day long; But the righteous give and don't withhold.
Pro. 21:26

The righteous care about justice for the poor. The wicked aren't concerned about knowledge.
Pro. 29:7

GodsGrace101 said:

To be right with God we have to believe He exists and we have to trust in Him...as Jesus said in John 3:3, 5.

If somenone does not know God exists and does not believe in God,,,then he surely will not fulfill what Jesus stated in John 3. There can be no salvation unless one believes in God.

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I believe righteous person believes, when he has heard. But it may be possible that person has not hear and then, I believe that person can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

miamited said:

...What is the first command of the law to fulfill God's righteousness. Yes, one can certainly be a good person as we humans define 'good person', but the very first command of God's expectation of righteousness is to love Him with absolutely everything that you are. I think it would be hard for someone to attain that righteousness without knowing that God does exist.

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I think you have good point. However, in this case I think it is good to look what Bible means with “love God”. It is said:

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

And all the other commandments are in “love your neighbor as yourself”.

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

So, if there is a person who doesn’t know about God, but still understand what is good and right and loves his neighbor as himself, then I think he fulfils the law and I believe he can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

And also about the believing. I think one part of this is, can person have a good reason not to believe. I think righteous person understands that there is no good reason to say God or Jesus doesn’t exist. Righteous person loves truth.

But, this is obviously only how I have understood the matter. I hope you understand this the way God has meant it.

GodsGrace101 said:

Sure. So? Most men are not aware of God and do not believe in Him.
Jesus also said not to go to the gentiles.
Matthew 10:5-6
5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It was not till later on that Jesus decided to allow the gentiles.
See the parable of the Wedding Feast.
Matthew 22

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Jesus told his disciple to go to the Jews first. He was largely rejected, as was prophesied. The Gentiles were then grafted into the fold, as was prophesied.

However, I see no prophesies or scripture that says you can believe in false gods and reject Jesus and go to heaven. Heaven is a free gift for those that receive Jesus as savior.

What you say is contrary to what scripture says, simple as that.

steppinrazor said:

This can be used for almost 80% of the threads on this board. I should just start pasting this as a reply in most threads....haha But seriously, it really is the only answer

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That and being a member of a church

Choose Wisely said:

Jesus told his disciple to go to the Jews first. He was largely rejected, as was prophesied. The Gentiles were then grafted into the fold, as was prophesied.

However, I see no prophesies or scripture that says you can believe in false gods and reject Jesus and go to heaven. Heaven is a free gift for those that receive Jesus as savior.

What you say is contrary to what scripture says, simple as that.

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I'm not talking about false gods.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
I'm speaking about the one and only God....
Yahweh, Father, Almighty, etc.

Jesus is the second person of the Trinity....
Sent to us as a final revelation.
God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to mankind.
It was ALWAYS up to each individual person to accept Him or reject Him.
Persons in the O.T. were saved by faith,,,just as we are...
Jesus died not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world.
If we do not want to believe as universalists do, then we have to accept that this actually means something....Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the whole world that ever accepted God with the foreseen future being that Jesus would indeed die for those persons.

If you, and others, wish to believe that only Christians that believe in Jesus are going to heaven...as many do, including friends of mine, then you can go ahead and believe this. I also used to believe this.

But God is a Big God and is not to be placed in our little box.

Romans 1 and 2 has been posted several times by myself and other members.
Once could either accept this or not...but Paul himself said that those that do not know the Law --- the O.T. Laws --- are a law unto themselves. He states that the Gentiles could have instinctively done the things of the Law, so that the Law is written in their hearts.

There is no partiality with God....The man who finds faith will find it through trusting God. Romans 1:17

Paul said that God will give to each what he deserves.
Romans 2:6

Which Jesus Himself repeats and teaches in
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

To be saved, Jesus said we must be born of above and of the spirit and we must obey God.
John 3:3,5, 15

Hi 1213,

Thanks for your response:

1213 said:

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

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Yes, absolutely!!! Hallelujah!!!! Now, what is the first commandment?

1213 said:

But, this is obviously only how I have understood the matter. I hope you understand this the way God has meant it.

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I believe that I do. I certainly understand it as John seems to have explained. Love for God is for us to keep His commandments. Even Jesus said that if we love him we should keep his commandments. What was the first of them?

The very foundation of our relationship with the God and Creator of all that is, is that we love, trust and obey Him. I believe that is the very foundation of all that the Scriptures teach us about having the kind of relationship with the God who is revealed to us in the Scriptures, that He wants us to have.

God wrote a book. He didn't write it in America or China or South America. He wrote it in and through Israel and it was given as Paul's assignment, once the plan was completed through the death of our Lord, Jesus, to go into all the known world at that time and tell everyone about that God and His Son. We also today, as we come to faith and trust and love in that same God that Paul preached, are asked to do the same. The person who believes in Krishna, isn't believing in the one true and living God and there are two possible reasons. 1. We haven't told them yet. 2. They have heard, but rejected the message.

Consider the testimony of the Scriptures regarding Jesus' preaching. According to them he traveled throughout all of Israel during his 3 years of ministry. There was, according to the Scriptures, not a town in all of Israel that Jesus and his disciples did not enter to preach the truth of God. Now, let's look at Jesus' death upon the cross. Those same people, who had all heard Jesus' message, for the most part, didn't believe him.

That's still true today. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds of missionary groups that go throughout the whole world telling the truth of Jesus just as Paul and the first disciples did. Just as in those days, most of those who heard just shrugged their shoulders and walked on. Some of it is cultural. There are some faiths that are so well ingrained and so strongly believed by family patriarchs, that to even consider believing what someone might tell them about Jesus, causes them deep concern with maintaining their family relationships.

Jesus described for us the spreading of the gospel and how it would be received or not in the parable of the sower. The gist of that parable is true. The gospel does go out around the world but it is not received by most if we consider that only one of the four people who are described in the Scriptures actually believed and persevered to the end. As far as the complaint that how I understand the Scriptures might mean that a whole lot of people are destined to be separated from God? I believe that's exactly what Jesus was telling us when he described to his disciples about the two ways out of this life. He said that one was broad path and that there were many who traveled it. He then said that the other was narrow and few there be that find it. So, as I look upon the earth, I tend to look through the lens that Jesus has portrayed to me...many that I see aren't going to be accepted. Few will be.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

miamited said:

...Love for God is for us to keep His commandments. Even Jesus said that if we love him we should keep his commandments. What was the first of them?..

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The first is “love God”. If person loves God, he loves his neighbors as himself. Now, if person loves his neighbors as himself, he also shows love to God and fulfills the first commandment, even if not knowingly. And to me, person who loves in deed, is better than person who loves in words only.

…let's not love in word only, neither with the tongue only, but in deed and truth.
1 John 3:18

I don’t know if there are people who don’t know about God, but still love others as commanded. If there are, I believe they can be counted righteous, because of that.

I think it is also good to notice. Thomas didn’t believe before he saw. I think he still can be counted righteous, because he was faithful. And if person loves others as commanded, I count it faithfulness to God, even if not conscious.

1213 said:

I have understood from the Bible that righteous means wisdom of the just, right understanding that makes person also act righteously. I think it is like in the parable of good and bad tree. If person is righteous, he produces righteous fruit and if person is not unrighteous, he produces unrighteous fruit. From fruit one can recognize who is righteous. But fruit is not the thing that makes someone righteous. Fruit is only a result. What person is, determines what he does. What person does, doesn’t determine what he is.

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You're right of course.
But being righteous just simply means that you're right with God.
If you substitute "right with God" every time you see the word "righteous", you'll see that it sounds perfect.

I very much like your last sentence...
What a person IS, determines what he DOES.
This is why I worry for those that say they are Christian and then claim they do not have to obey God or do any good deeds as we are taught to do in the N.T.
The good deeds we do is because we are right with God...
AND, can we say, that doing them makes us be right with God.
But first comes the being in right standing with Him.

I like this for a deeper understanding of the word righteous:

Righteousness Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.

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1 John 3:7-10

Wisdom of the just I get from here:

He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:17

In Bible righteousness is something that comes visible in actions. For example:

The wicked borrow, and don't pay back, But the righteous give generously.
Ps. 37:21

The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom, But the perverse tongue will be cut off. The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable, But the mouth of the wicked is perverse.
Pro. 10:31-32

The thoughts of the righteous are just, But the advice of the wicked is deceitful… … A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel… … A righteous person is cautious in friendship, But the way of the wicked leads them astray.
Pro. 12:5,10,26

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace… … The light of the righteous shines brightly, But the lamp of the wicked is snuffed out.
Pro. 13:5,9

There are those who covet greedily all the day long; But the righteous give and don't withhold.
Pro. 21:26

The righteous care about justice for the poor. The wicked aren't concerned about knowledge.
Pro. 29:7

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The above is very good....
and shows different aspects of being righteous.
It's a good study of the word righteous.

I believe righteous person believes, when he has heard. But it may be possible that person has not hear and then, I believe that person can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

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I agree with you 100%.
If a person rejects Jesus, he is lost.
If a person does not know Jesus, but is spiritual and loves God,,,
then the above applies to him.

1213 said:

The first is “love God”. If person loves God, he loves his neighbors as himself. Now, if person loves his neighbors as himself, he also shows love to God and fulfills the first commandment, even if not knowingly. And to me, person who loves in deed, is better than person who loves in words only.

…let's not love in word only, neither with the tongue only, but in deed and truth.
1 John 3:18

I don’t know if there are people who don’t know about God, but still love others as commanded. If there are, I believe they can be counted righteous, because of that.

I think it is also good to notice. Thomas didn’t believe before he saw. I think he still can be counted righteous, because he was faithful. And if person loves others as commanded, I count it faithfulness to God, even if not conscious.

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Although I agree with everything @miamited said in the post to you, no. 48,
I do have to say that Jesus did not speak to much about "being saved" but about how to have eternal life and how to get it.

I can think of only one verse where Jesus actually says to believe in Him to be saved...and in that case we'd have to stop and study the word BELIEVE and what it means.

Jesus spoke about believing in God,,,in who we understand to be the Father in the Trinity....having faith in Him, obeying Him.

He said HE was the way, the truth and the life.....for all those who could come to know Him. And the others?

I agree with you...there is ONE GOD....and we must trust that one God.

Actually, Jesus often said that trust, belief, etc. should be in HIM.

HE was the one who took the sins of the world upon himself, gave his life, and made possible our redemption.

Kostilaks said:

I cant understand faith. Some people are born, in other countries and raised in other religions. They believe that their religion is right.

If a different religion person was coming to you and was telling you stuff like "you must believe this religion, because it is the truth" you would say stuff like " no. Jesus is the only God"

If that different religion person cant change your mind or your faith in Jesus, why you expect to persuade him into becoming a Christian?

I was raised in a Christian family, so I am Christian but what about the other people?

I read somewhere in the Bible, something like that Jesus tell His disciples to go to other houses and tell about Him and that it would be really bad to those who will not listen.

If, people were coming to your house and started telling you about Jesus, would not be logic for some people to believe and for some other not to believe?

I cant understand faith. why believe in Jesus just because they are Scriptures about Jesus? how do we know if they are real? there are so many other religions, why Christianity is the right one?

What about evolution? how does that goes with Christianity? what about the stoning children in Deuteronomy 21? It says something like to stone disobeying children but Jesus did not stone the woman.

I find some verses in the Old Testament very different and scarier than the verse in the New Testament. why?

What about some contradictions in ages and chronologies?

Isn't it logical for some people to believe the Scriptures because they give them hope and some people not to believe the Scriptures because they can not be proved if they are valid or not.

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In order to go the/a or the only true Heaven, one must come to or be called to (or be selected by God into) eventually having or professing a true saving knowledge in Jesus Christ, there is just no other way to get into the true Heaven with the True God the Father in the afterlife after this, sorry...

Otherwise you just won't, etc...

That being said, there are a lot of Christians, "a lot" of "so-called Christians", who say they are this and/or have this when they really do not, and are not, or do not have this, also, "also", etc...

But can you spot the true from the fake, or the fake from the real...?

And should you, even if you could, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

In order to go the/a or the only true Heaven, one must come to or be called to (or be selected by God into) eventually having or professing a true saving knowledge in Jesus Christ, there is just no other way to get into the true Heaven with the True God the Father in the afterlife after this, sorry...

Otherwise you just won't, etc...

That being said, there are a lot of Christians, "a lot" of "so-called Christians", who say they are this and/or have this when they really do not, and are not, or do not have this, also, "also", etc...

But can you spot the true from the fake, or the fake from the real...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

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The only exception would be only maybe if there was some sort or kind of disability, or complete inability, preventing them from getting and/or having that, etc... But for the most part, it is as I just said, etc...

God Bless!

Albion said:

Actually, Jesus often said that trust, belief, etc. should be in HIM.

HE was the one who took the sins of the world upon himself, gave his life, and made possible our redemption.

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I've stated that Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD.

Could you post some verses please about what Jesus said?

A person can love God till they are blue in the face.

But if they never trust in Jesus (The Messiah) for the gift of His Eternal Life. They are missing Eternal Life and they will miss it the same as an atheist who does not even believe in God.

GodsGrace101 said:

I've stated that Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD.

Could you post some verses please about what Jesus said?

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Hi, GG.

Here are some:

John 6:29
John 6:42
John 8:31-32
John 14:1

These are examples of Jesus speaking about Himself--which was the question. There are many more verses in Scripture which instruct us to believe, have faith in, and/or trust Jesus, but which are not quotes from Jesus.

Albion said:

Hi, GG.

Here are some:

John 6:29
John 6:42
John 8:31-32
John 14:1

These are examples of Jesus speaking about Himself--which was the question. There are many more verses in Scripture which instruct us to believe, have faith in, and/or trust Jesus, but which are not quotes from Jesus.

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A,
I know the above and that there are many verses about Jesus.
If you notice, in John 6:29 Jesus said to believe in the one whom God has sent.
What I'm saying is that there have been others that God has sent. Those to whom these "lights" have been sent do not know Jesus but could still be saved because they believe in the God Jesus is referring to.

John 6:42 just tells us what we know even from John 6:29...that Jesus has descended from heaven.

John 8:31-32 And what is the truth? Did not also the other revelations from God also teach the truth?

John 14:1 Also repeats that we are to believe in the God Jesus is speaking of...and ALSO in Him.

I'm not disagreeing with you...I believe as you do.

What I'm saying is that NOT ONLY Christians are going to be in the presence of God when they die.

GodsGrace101 said:

I'm speaking about the one and only God....
Yahweh, Father, Almighty, etc.

Jesus is the second person of the Trinity....
Sent to us as a final revelation.
God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to mankind.

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Okay, it seems that you are mostly interested in the Universalist idea.

What I thought the main point you were asking about was whether Jesus, in his instructions, was saying to refer to the Father or to him (Jesus). If the former, it might mean that Jesus was only some sort of representative of God (or of the Father). I think the verses I mentioned have to be tortured in order to make them be said by Jesus but not referring to himself.

Be that as it may, I also think that the issue has two parts. Is Jesus God? If that is established, then whom he was referring to in such verses as those mentioned answers itself. It's Jesus.

That however, doesn't take up the Universalist issue.

There are several verses in Scripture, about a half-dozen, which suggest universal salvation, but there are a mountain of others that point the opposite way. It is impossible IMHO to discount these others, so that is where I am forced to come down on this question.

GodsGrace101 said:

...I can think of only one verse where Jesus actually says to believe in Him to be saved...and in that case we'd have to stop and study the word BELIEVE and what it means.....

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I think it is good question, what does “believe” mean. Does it mean that one believes Jesus exists, or does it mean that one believes that it is good to love your neighbor as yourself. Here are few good scriptures about believing:

Whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:26

One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
John 3:36

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:18-21

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

By believing what Jesus said, one can have sins forgiven and so be saved from the judgment that otherwise would come because of sin. The reason for judgment is sin. And if person doesn’t believe and receive what Jesus said about forgiveness, then he is judged by the sin he has.

And, I think John 3:36 shows well what should be believed. If some person is not Christian, but obeys Jesus still (believes what is good and right), I think there is no problem to count that person righteous.