Questions About Hell

FineLinen said:

Dear Shrewd: It is truly amazing how the Master can take the entire process of this broken and bruised world and ultimately bring full and complete restoration. It must be complete restoration, He does nothing partially!

The Destruction Of The Wicked=

The "Destruction" of the Wicked

Everlasting Destruction

Marvin R. Vincent: Note on ‘eternal destruction’ (Olethron Aionion) | Mercy Upon All

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Dear F.L., does not God destroy the wicked by destroying their wickedness? Does He not lay the axe to the root to destroy the sin and deliver the man renewed? Does He not transform our love of darkness into love of light by the revelation of His amazing grace?

And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. (Isa 11:6)

The truth shall set you free says Jesus.

Can the truth really set you free if part of that truth is hell for some other people?

Thoughts?

After the liberation of my own salvation, taking notice of universalism has genuine made me feel more free (of worry and of pressure to evangelize/get people saved).

Jord Simcha said:

The truth shall set you free says Jesus.

Can the truth really set you free if part of that truth is hell for some other people?

Thoughts?

After the liberation of my own salvation, taking notice of universalism has genuine made me feel more free (of worry and of pressure to evangelize/get people saved).

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I'd agree it's a little hard to be set free from worry and anxiety with the ever-looming bugaboo of eternal doom. Sure, damnationists always express a certainty of their salvation, the alternative is, after all, unthinkable. But when the lights go out, they must have some dark nights, whether for themselves or others. Especially with all the uncertainty as to the identity and scope of the 'unforgivable sin', and the mysterious basis for a 'Depart from me, I never knew you'. Poor things, it must be a real burden.

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. (Mt 6:33-34)

Evangelising is just the opposite. It's telling ppl that God has alleviated their burdens, He loves them with a depth and passion they can't begin to comprehend, but He can show them. Good news!

FineLinen said:

My dear Aussie friend: The process of bringing us into fellowship into Him is one of moving through levels of change and transformation. It is not simply sins the Father is dealing, but the very nature of sin. And so we come to the Divine equation >>>many constituted sinners = many constituted righteous.

Let His amazing grace lay the axe to our roots!

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When God says 'I shall utterly destroy', I believe we can rejoice in His promising of deliverance from the troubles that beset us.

@Jord Simcha @Shrewd Manager @FineLinen
I do not see in Restorationism (UR) a relaxed view towards the task of evangelism.
Something we are typically blamed for.
There will still be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the "hot tub".
This is to be avoided/reduced by any work we can complete on this end.
As Jord said, "less pressure" for sure, since the stakes are not as high.
And also the general change in the "us and them" view toward the so-called "lost".

That being said, we need to be discipling everyone we meet.
At some point they will leave their other gods to pursue what works.
We don't have to take their idols away. They will lay them aside in due time.

Saint Steven said:

@Jord Simcha @Shrewd Manager @FineLinen
I do not see in Restorationism (UR) a relaxed view towards the task of evangelism.
Something we are typically blamed for.
There will still be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the "hot tub".
This is to be avoided/reduced by any work we can complete on this end.
As Jord said, "less pressure" for sure, since the stakes are not as high.
And also the general change in the "us and them" view toward the so-called "lost".

That being said, we need to be discipling everyone we meet.
At some point they will leave their other gods to pursue what works.
We don't have to take their idols away. They will lay them aside in due time.

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It's coming from a different place though, is it not? Jesus dumped on the hypocrites for compassing land and sea to make a new proselyte, just to make them more a son of hell than they were. It's counterproductive to evangelise 'from hell', as it were. The only way is 'from heaven', which is because we really want ppl to come to a knowledge of the truth, so they can up dance away like the lame guy in Acts.

@Saint Steven I agree we should still evangelize, but it's not out of despair if you believe in universal salvation. You can be as cool as a Calvinist about it if people don't believe you.

Jord Simcha said:

@Saint Steven I agree we should still evangelize, but it's not out of despair if you believe in universal salvation. You can be as cool as a Calvinist about it if people don't believe you.

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That's good. We need to be responsible to witness to those God brings our way and leave the results to him. One plants, another waters, and still another harvests. Part of a process.

Shrewd Manager said:

It's coming from a different place though, is it not? Jesus dumped on the hypocrites for compassing land and sea to make a new proselyte, just to make them more a son of hell than they were. It's counterproductive to evangelise 'from hell', as it were. The only way is 'from heaven', which is because we really want ppl to come to a knowledge of the truth, so they can up dance away like the lame guy in Acts.

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I agree.
Growing up in Evangelicalism I saw all sorts of manmade "programs" to save the lost. Apologetics was the name of the game. We needed to convince the lost to be saved. So we needed to memorize all the scriptures, refute all the arguments get that notch in our gun. We put men like Billy Graham on a pedestal. (not a criticism of Billy)

I like the current focus of doing it the way Jesus did it. Look for what the Father is doing and partner with Him.

Saint Steven said:

I agree.
Growing up in Evangelicalism I saw all sorts of manmade "programs" to save the lost. Apologetics was the name of the game. We needed to convince the lost to be saved. So we needed to memorize all the scriptures, refute all the arguments get that notch in our gun. We put men like Billy Graham on a pedestal. (not a criticism of Billy)

I like the current focus of doing it the way Jesus did it. Look for what the Father is doing and partner with Him.

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You would have seen a panoply of tactics and methods over the years. Still, there's nothing like the genuine love of Christ to sow that seed. Not saying damnationists can't express that, but once the fear of hell is introduced, it's a whole different ball game, ie legalism and implied threat.

As for apologetics, what do you think of presuppositionalism?

Shrewd Manager said:

As for apologetics, what do you think of presuppositionalism?

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I think it fosters an "us and them" mentality. Builds walls of separation instead of welcoming bridges. Every response begins with, "Yes, but..."

I discovered recently that the only difference between myself and my agnostic friends was our conclusions. We actually were working from the same facts and believed the same things. The difference was in what we did with those facts and beliefs. What they had decided to reject, I had decided to believe.

This was coupled with my discovery that we will never have all the puzzle pieces. And how absolutely necessary this is. It needs to be that way so that we are forced to apply faith. Not having all the answers leads the agnostic to unbelief. Not having all the answers leads the Christian to faith.

Shrewd Manager said:

...but once the fear of hell is introduced...

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I've seen very little actual "fire and brimstone" preaching. I know it happens. But for me, hell was always this unfortunate thing that came bundled with grace. It was right there in our Bibles. And it was an all or nothing proposition. If you wanted the grace, hell came with it. We still see the Damnationists defending this idea.

Saint Steven said:

We actually were working from the same facts and believed the same things. The difference was in what we did with those facts and beliefs. What they had decided to reject, I had decided to believe.

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Right, the best approach I heard in that area was to get unbelievers to question far enough to realise that their belief structures are built on faith. Once I can challenge the conviction there's a purely scientific explanation for the fact of their existence and ability to reason, I consider the seed sown.

Saint Steven said:

I've seen very little actual "fire and brimstone" preaching. I know it happens. But for me, hell was always this unfortunate thing that came bundled with grace. It was right there in our Bibles. And it was an all or nothing proposition. If you wanted the grace, hell came with it. We still see the Damnationists defending this idea.

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Yes, think you once said it was a 'bolt-on'? But a lot of evangelists do lead with it, eg 'Have you ever broken the 10 commandments? If so, you're facing judgment. Only way to avoid it is to accept Jesus'-type thing.

Let's face it, damnation's probably the best-known Xtian doctrine to unbelievers, together with the love of Christ. That's why the 'thinking man' facepalms and rejects it.

Shrewd Manager said:

Right, the best approach I heard in that area was to get unbelievers to question far enough to realise that their belief structures are built on faith. Once I can challenge the conviction there's a purely scientific explanation for the fact of their existence and ability to reason, I consider the seed sown.

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There's something to that.

I love this scripture. If we can introduce them to the other realm, it's a game changer. What can an agnostic say against the God that healed them?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Shrewd Manager said:

Yes, think you once said it was a 'bolt-on'? But a lot of evangelists do lead with it, eg 'Have you ever broken the 10 commandments? If so, you're facing judgment. Only way to avoid it is to accept Jesus'-type thing.

Let's face it, damnation's probably the best-known Xtian doctrine to unbelievers, together with the love of Christ. That's why the 'thinking man' facepalms and rejects it.

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Yes, salvation is just a free gift, unless you reject it. It then becomes quite expensive. - lol

Heading to work now.

Saint Steven said:

There's something to that.

I love this scripture. If we can introduce them to the other realm, it's a game changer. What can an agnostic say against the God that healed them?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Click to expand...

That's right, Paul's depth of conviction and anointing is a great lesson for us. It's the heart that needs to open a little, but if the head says no, it won't happen.

That was my experience in rejecting the faith all those years on the grounds that Genesis had been scientifically disproven (I believed), and only when a detailed study of geocentrism revealed to me that there was no evidence of earth's supposed motion in space, was I ready to delve into Christianity - and surrender myself.

Only God and his attributes are eternal.

His mercy endures forever. Ps.118, Ps.136
His loving kindness is everlasting. Ps.118, Ps.136
Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:13