Daniel's 70th week

Al Touthentop said:

I am glad, I don't want to just dispute for the sake of disputing. And you'll note I wrote "I think" up there. I'm willing to be wrong, that's just what my current understanding is.

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I totally appreciate your approach to Scripture. It is refreshing to see someone letting the Bible speak for itself.

Al Touthentop said:

The kingdom arrived and was established when Christ was resurrected.

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We're members of it right now if indeed we are in Christ. Peter said on the day of Pentecost that Jesus was on the throne of that kingdom. It's a done deal. It operates on earth now though it isn't of this world. It has no administrative offices or officers who lord over the subjects. Unlike every other nation and kingdom of the earth, members govern themselves by making themselves servants of the kingdom without any police powers making them do so.

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Absolutely! Per Daniel there would be 4 earthly, worldly kingdoms, but the saints would possess the kingdom of God forever and ever. This happened just as prophesied during the 4th kingdom (rome).

Daniel 7:17 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe.

Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son

Al Touthentop said:

It can only be experienced in the spiritual sense ever, unless there ends up being a kingdom that has laws written in law books in a physical kingdom somewhere with an administration and political apparatus.

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Maybe we are just not understanding in the spiritual sense and in the literal physical sense, the same way?

Take angels for instance. Though people have seen angels before, typically one does not see them with the naked eye. This would be an example of experiencing the kingdom in a spiritual sense. Plus it requires faith to believe in beings one has never even seen.

When Jesus returns though, these angels one currently can't see, but have faith they exist, these things will no longer be an issue. One will be able to see them as plain as the nose on their face. This being an example of the kingdom in a literal physical form.

Earlier I brought up the parable in Luke 19. Amils typically believe the entire planet literally goes up in flames, burning up everyone on the planet in the process, yet when comparing to the parable in Luke 19, as an example, no such thing is being depicted at the time.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Let's consider a few things here for a moment. Let's start with verse 15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned. Returned from where? And returned to where? How can the former not be heaven, and the latter not be earth?

Now let's consider verse 27 for a moment as well. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Why would He need to do that if the entire planet is supposed to literally be ablaze when He returns, burning up everyone on the planet in the process? No mortal person could possibly survive something like that. There is nothing in this parable above remotely showing that the planet will literally go up in flames, literally burning up everyone on the planet in the process, at the 2nd coming of Christ. That is an invention of Amils misunderstanding of some of these Scriptures, such as in 2 Peter 3. And the same is true about Revelation 19, there is not a single place in all of that chapter depicting the entire planet is literally ablaze, burning up everyone on the planet in the process, when Jesus returns.

So when amils argue---which lost people are going to populate the planet after Jesus returns in order for there to be this supposed 1000 years Premil believe in, if according to 2 Peter 3, the entire planet literally goes up in flames, and in the process it literally burns all of the lost up, thus no survivors? Yet the parable above in Luke 19 proves otherwise. Let's don't forget what verse 27 says in Luke 19. You don't slay people who are already dead, who should already be dead if the Amil interpretation of 2 Peter 3 is correct. No, you only slay people who are not even dead yet.

DavidPT said:

Maybe we are just not understanding in the spiritual sense and in the literal physical sense, the same way?

Take angels for instance. Though people have seen angels before, typically one does not see them with the naked eye. This would be an example of experiencing the kingdom in a spiritual sense. Plus it requires faith to believe in beings one has never even seen.

When Jesus returns though, these angels one currently can't see, but have faith they exist, these things will no longer be an issue. One will be able to see them as plain as the nose on their face. This being an example of the kingdom in a literal physical form.

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Men saw angels and we read about this in the old testament. They looked like men to those who saw them.

Earlier I brought up the parable in Luke 19. Amils typically believe the entire planet literally goes up in flames, burning up everyone on the planet in the process, yet when comparing to the parable in Luke 19, as an example, no such thing is being depicted at the time.

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No, the planet will have given up all of its dead by then. But it will be destroyed at the resurrection. Peter says that it will burn up on the day of judgement.

7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Let's consider a few things here for a moment. Let's start with verse 15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned. Returned from where? And returned to where? How can the former not be heaven, and the latter not be earth?

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Easily. This is a parable. Neither place is necessarily set in stone. Jesus went away (died) and received his kingdom and returned (resurrected).

Now let's consider verse 27 for a moment as well. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

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One could easily argue that this was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Why would He need to do that if the entire planet is supposed to literally be ablaze when He returns, burning up everyone on the planet in the process? No mortal person could possibly survive something like that. There is nothing in this parable above remotely showing that the planet will literally go up in flames, literally burning up everyone on the planet in the process, at the 2nd coming of Christ. That is an invention of Amils misunderstanding of some of these Scriptures, such as in 2 Peter 3. And the same is true about Revelation 19, there is not a single place in all of that chapter depicting the entire planet is literally ablaze, burning up everyone on the planet in the process, when Jesus returns.

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Does that mean that Peter was wrong? Maybe there's another possibility that you aren't considering.

Let me try one on you. Can we assume that Isaiah 40 couldn't possibly be fulfilled because John the baptist didn't literally build any roads, excavate mountains and fill in valleys while he preached the gospel? Or do we consider that Isaiah wasn't talking about literal roads, valleys and mountains?

So when amils argue---which lost people are going to populate the planet after Jesus returns in order for there to be this supposed 1000 years Premil believe in, if according to 2 Peter 3, the entire planet literally goes up in flames, and in the process it literally burns all of the lost up, thus no survivors? Yet the parable above in Luke 19 proves otherwise. Let's don't forget what verse 27 says in Luke 19. You don't slay people who are already dead, who should already be dead if the Amil interpretation of 2 Peter 3 is correct. No, you only slay people who are not even dead yet.

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The lost are not going to be burned up during the destruction of the planet. They also will be resurrected and judged. The resurrection happens first, then the planet is destroyed. Somewhere after the resurrection, all of the souls are judged and either punished or rewarded. I am assuming the lost will be resurrected because they are going to be judged. The judgement doesn't occur on earth.

Douggg said:

No one here on earth is living in the kingdom of God, but in the world.

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I'm living in it.

So is everyone who is in Christ.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Douggg said:

Which means that Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the Great must be destroyed before that happens and Satan made a terror no more.

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Satan is no terror to those in Christ.

2 Corinthians 2:14
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

DavidPT said:

Maybe we are just not understanding in the spiritual sense and in the literal physical sense, the same way?

Take angels for instance. Though people have seen angels before, typically one does not see them with the naked eye. This would be an example of experiencing the kingdom in a spiritual sense. Plus it requires faith to believe in beings one has never even seen.

When Jesus returns though, these angels one currently can't see, but have faith they exist, these things will no longer be an issue. One will be able to see them as plain as the nose on their face. This being an example of the kingdom in a literal physical form.

Earlier I brought up the parable in Luke 19. Amils typically believe the entire planet literally goes up in flames, burning up everyone on the planet in the process, yet when comparing to the parable in Luke 19, as an example, no such thing is being depicted at the time.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Let's consider a few things here for a moment. Let's start with verse 15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned. Returned from where? And returned to where? How can the former not be heaven, and the latter not be earth?

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You just forced your millennial earth into the text where it doesn't exist. It doesn't say where the judgment is.

Now let's consider verse 27 for a moment as well. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Why would He need to do that if the entire planet is supposed to literally be ablaze when He returns, burning up everyone on the planet in the process? No mortal person could possibly survive something like that. There is nothing in this parable above remotely showing that the planet will literally go up in flames, literally burning up everyone on the planet in the process, at the 2nd coming of Christ. That is an invention of Amils misunderstanding of some of these Scriptures, such as in 2 Peter 3. And the same is true about Revelation 19, there is not a single place in all of that chapter depicting the entire planet is literally ablaze, burning up everyone on the planet in the process, when Jesus returns.

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How about this being the general judgment that happens after the general resurrection when Jesus comes? What has the location of this to do with your supposed future millennium?

So when amils argue---which lost people are going to populate the planet after Jesus returns in order for there to be this supposed 1000 years Premil believe in, if according to 2 Peter 3, the entire planet literally goes up in flames, and in the process it literally burns all of the lost up, thus no survivors? Yet the parable above in Luke 19 proves otherwise. Let's don't forget what verse 27 says in Luke 19. You don't slay people who are already dead, who should already be dead if the Amil interpretation of 2 Peter 3 is correct. No, you only slay people who are not even dead yet.

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This has to go down as one of the weakest Premil argument I have ever encountered. There is absolutely no mention of a future millennium or does the text lend any support to your thesis. It is all forced into the text. It is reminiscent of what the House managers in Washington trying to foist Bribery on the President when no one was actually bribed. When you are besotted with a doctrine, you can literally see it anywhere.

This parable is another text that proves the climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ (and therefore the Amil position). It also supports a general judgment. You have here, as in every judgment passage, the righteous and the wicked being judged at the same time/event.

Al Touthentop said:

The kingdom arrived and was established when Christ was resurrected.

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We're members of it right now if indeed we are in Christ. Peter said on the day of Pentecost that Jesus was on the throne of that kingdom. It's a done deal. It operates on earth now though it isn't of this world. It has no administrative offices or officers who lord over the subjects. Unlike every other nation and kingdom of the earth, members govern themselves by making themselves servants of the kingdom without any police powers making them do so.

Click to expand...

The kingdom of God is operating now, and only the body of Christ is operating according to it, but not all nations are operating according to it at this time, however in the Millennium all the body of Christ as well as all nations will be operating according to it, and Jesus will be on the earth sitting on His throne. In fullness, His Kingdom come, His will done on earth as it is in heaven.

jgr said:

Satan is no terror to those in Christ.

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Satan is the arch enemy of all in Christ.

jgr said:

I'm living in it.

So is everyone who is in Christ.

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jgr said:

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Click to expand...

You have become a heir to the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God has not become the ruling kingdom here on earth over all kingdoms, yet.

fwGod said:

The kingdom of God is operating now, and only the body of Christ is operating according to it, but not all nations are operating according to it at this time, however in the Millennium all the body of Christ as well as all nations will be operating according to it, and Jesus will be on the earth sitting on His throne. In fullness, His Kingdom come, His will done on earth as it is in heaven.

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And where do you find that?

fwGod said:

The kingdom of God is operating now, and only the body of Christ is operating according to it, but not all nations are operating according to it at this time, however in the Millennium all the body of Christ as well as all nations will be operating according to it, and Jesus will be on the earth sitting on His throne. In fullness, His Kingdom come, His will done on earth as it is in heaven.

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It isn't required that any nation operate according to it. The US as a nation operates on Satan's principles rather than God's. That's not proof that Christ's kingdom hasn't come, it is just proof that people in power, acting from their own free will, willingly present themselves as slaves to sin.

We are in the 'millennium' right now. Do you realize how silly this idea is that Jesus would come to earth and force everyone to obey him? That's what the earthly millennium doctrine stipulates. Forced obedience. It's not going to happen because God has never worked that way. At no point in history has God forced anyone to obey him. Jesus is 'sitting' on his 'throne' right now.

I wonder though, could Jesus not be sitting down and still have his authority? Is there some actual throne somewhere that he needs to be sitting on before he can be king? When David left Jerusalem for any reason was he no longer king when he didn't sit on his throne? You realize that this language is figurative don't you? Jesus is king whether standing, sitting or flying through the universe. And the scriptures all testify that he is king at this moment and was made king through his death and resurrection.

Douggg said:

Satan is the arch enemy of all in Christ.

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And a terror to no one who knows what Christ has accomplished. It is Satan who wants to make you afraid and hide from you God's glory.

Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

We are not to be afraid.

2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

If Satan is still a terror to Christians, then they have not received the gospel.

You have become a heir to the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God has not become the ruling kingdom here on earth over all kingdoms, yet.

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And again you argue with scripture while you also claim that those who don't agree with you are fighting God. Oh, the irony. Your clothes must be amazingly wrinkle free!

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”


9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The thing that should be noted here is the subjunctive mood. Every tongue should confess, and every knee should bow. Not everyone will until the day of judgement when all truth will be inescapable.

Right now though, Jesus is king and Lord. Why do you resist this fact?

Douggg said:

Satan is the arch enemy of all in Christ.

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Satan is impotent against Christ and those in Christ, being defeated by them. (2 Corinthians 2:14; Colossians 2:15)

Douggg said:

You have become a heir to the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God has not become the ruling kingdom here on earth over all kingdoms, yet.

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You're already in the kingdom. (Colossians 1:12-13)

But you're not satisfied with this kingdom. It doesn't meet your carnal expectations.

The same expectations that the Pharisees had.

Would you rather opt out?

Al Touthentop said:

We are in the 'millennium' right now. Do you realize how silly this idea is that Jesus would come to earth and force everyone to obey him?

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Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

What do you think what I have underlined means if not something like that? What I have underlined certainly in not the case presently. Maybe in the Twilight Zone it might be, but not in the real world.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

What do you think what I have underlined means if not something like that? It looks like to me, per Isaiah 60:12, forced complience or else. According to the verses surrounding this one, the timing appears to be during the new heavens and new earth.

What about the following verse?

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

According to Amil theology, shouldn't these that afflicted them be in the lake of fire at this point rather than come bending to the 'thee' meant during the new heavens and new earth? Aren't these in Isaiah 60:14 meaning the synagogue of satan in Revelation 3:9?

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Notice what the text clearly says, the part that is conveniently left out altogether when Amils and others use this verse to condemn Jews.

behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Make who come and worship before thy feet? How can it not be the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie?

DavidPT said:

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

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And people from all dominions do and did.

What do you think what I have underlined means if not something like that? What I have underlined certainly in not the case presently. Maybe in the Twilight Zone it might be, but not in the real world.

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It is the case presently, just not the way you accept.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

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And if they do not, they are utterly wasted.

What do you think what I have underlined means if not something like that? It looks like to me, per Isaiah 60:12, forced complience or else. According to the verses surrounding this one, the timing appears to be during the new heavens and new earth.

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There will be no disobedience at all in the new heavens and earth.

Make who come and worship before thy feet? How can it not be the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie?

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Because they obey the wrong law. And he did "make" people come worship at his feet unless you are claiming that nobody is.

But we can do this all day where you try to make the bible argue with itself.

Al Touthentop said:

There will be no disobedience at all in the new heavens and earth.

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So you disagree then, that the following, when comparing to Revelation 21, are not speaking of the same era of time?

Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.


Clearly both verse 12 and 14 in Isaiah 60 are meaning during this same period of time. Verse 21 says---Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever.

One can't inherit the land for forever in an age that doesn't last for forever. Therefore the next age has to be meant, the everlasting age.

Al Touthentop said:

And people from all dominions do and did.

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Maybe in the Twilight Zone, but not in the real world. Isn't China, for example, a dominion? Does it look like China is or ever has served and obeyed Him? Keep in mind, in Daniel 7 it says ALL dominions, and not some dominions will and some dominions won't, shall serve and obey Him. It clearly says all will. That has to equal forced compliance.

DavidPT said:

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

What do you think what I have underlined means if not something like that? What I have underlined certainly in not the case presently. Maybe in the Twilight Zone it might be, but not in the real world.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

What do you think what I have underlined means if not something like that? It looks like to me, per Isaiah 60:12, forced complience or else. According to the verses surrounding this one, the timing appears to be during the new heavens and new earth.

What about the following verse?

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

According to Amil theology, shouldn't these that afflicted them be in the lake of fire at this point rather than come bending to the 'thee' meant during the new heavens and new earth? Aren't these in Isaiah 60:14 meaning the synagogue of satan in Revelation 3:9?

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Notice what the text clearly says, the part that is conveniently left out altogether when Amils and others use this verse to condemn Jews.

behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Make who come and worship before thy feet? How can it not be the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie?

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Maybe in the Twilight Zone, but not in the real world. Isn't China, for example, a dominion? Does it look like China is or ever has served and obeyed Him?

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Why do Premils always try to make Satan BIG and God small? The opposite is the truth!!! The first principle to understand on this topic is that all power belongs to God alone. Man thinks he is the one who plans his own destiny but the Bible says that even though we may plan our own way, our steps are directed by the Lord (Psalm 37:23-24; Proverbs 16:9; 20:24; Jeremiah 10:23). We also must realize that leaders and those in authority do not govern outside of God’s will and they have no power to take our nation where God is not going.

Daniel 4:25: “That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.”

Daniel said to Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:31-32: “O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.”

This was no insignificant figure. This was the man that ruled the known world of that day. Even though he was a pagan king, he was a tool in the hand of God.

Daniel 4:34-35: “I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”

Or as the NKJV says: “No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"

The king of Babylon was humbled in order to show him who was really in charge of the affairs of this life. God humbled him – big time. He got a revelation that he (as a human being) was limited in his power, kingship and influence. He also saw the greatest of God. He saw he was only a tool in the hand of the Lord and that it was God alone that raises men to power.

God exercises the kingdom of his providence in the world. “He putteth down one and setteth up another” (Psalm 75:7).

Job 12:10 says of our God: “In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”

We must realize that leaders and those in authority do not govern outside of God’s will and they have no power to take us where God is not going.

Proverbs 21:1 says: “The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.”

Ephesians 1:11 tells us that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”

God has the power to turn leaders in the direction He chooses. Look at the plans of the leaders who crucified Jesus. The Jewish governors decided not to arrest Jesus during the feast day because they feared a riot and the Roman governor, Pilot wanted to let Jesus go with just a scourging. It was God’s will that prevailed for the redemption of Jesus was to be accomplished on the feast of Passover for it was the fulfillment of what the Passover represented. In the end, the foreordained plan of God was established and man’s plans were thwarted. During the time of judgment foretold in Revelation, this principle is also made clear. Look at

Revelation 17: "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”

When I hear things like you expound it makes me so glad to have abandoned Premil and embraced Amil. I now have an all-conquering reigning ruling Christ!!!

sovereigngrace said:

Why do Premils always try to make Satan BIG and God small? The opposite is the truth!!! The first principle to understand on this topic is that all power belongs to God alone. Man thinks he is the one who plans his own destiny but the Bible says that even though we may plan our own way, our steps are directed by the Lord (Psalm 37:23-24; Proverbs 16:9; 20:24; Jeremiah 10:23). We also must realize that leaders and those in authority do not govern outside of God’s will and they have no power to take our nation where God is not going.

Daniel 4:25: “That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.”

Daniel said to Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:31-32: “O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.”

This was no insignificant figure. This was the man that ruled the known world of that day. Even though he was a pagan king, he was a tool in the hand of God.

Daniel 4:34-35: “I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”

Or as the NKJV says: “No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"

The king of Babylon was humbled in order to show him who was really in charge of the affairs of this life. God humbled him – big time. He got a revelation that he (as a human being) was limited in his power, kingship and influence. He also saw the greatest of God. He saw he was only a tool in the hand of the Lord and that it was God alone that raises men to power.

God exercises the kingdom of his providence in the world. “He putteth down one and setteth up another” (Psalm 75:7).

Job 12:10 says of our God: “In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”

We must realize that leaders and those in authority do not govern outside of God’s will and they have no power to take us where God is not going.

Proverbs 21:1 says: “The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.”

Ephesians 1:11 tells us that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”

God has the power to turn leaders in the direction He chooses. Look at the plans of the leaders who crucified Jesus. The Jewish governors decided not to arrest Jesus during the feast day because they feared a riot and the Roman governor, Pilot wanted to let Jesus go with just a scourging. It was God’s will that prevailed for the redemption of Jesus was to be accomplished on the feast of Passover for it was the fulfillment of what the Passover represented. In the end, the foreordained plan of God was established and man’s plans were thwarted. During the time of judgment foretold in Revelation, this principle is also made clear. Look at

Revelation 17: "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”

When I hear things like you expound it makes me so glad to have abandoned Premil and embraced Amil. I now have an all-conquering reigning ruling Christ!!!

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Don't you have an answer for the following part from my other post below? I don't see where anything you submitted is remotely addressing this part. And if any of these things below are meaning during the new heavens and new earth, including the latter part of Revelation 3:9, how does Amil make that fit with their position?

Though even most Premils will disagree with the following as well, that if there is a thousand years at the beginning of the new heavens and new earth, it at least makes sense as to why there would be context, such as is found in verse 12 of Isaiah 60, within new heavens and new earth context.

DavidPT said:

What about the following verse?

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

According to Amil theology, shouldn't these that afflicted them be in the lake of fire at this point rather than come bending to the 'thee' meant during the new heavens and new earth? Aren't these in Isaiah 60:14 meaning the synagogue of satan in Revelation 3:9?

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Notice what the text clearly says, the part that is conveniently left out altogether when Amils and others use this verse to condemn Jews.

behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Make who come and worship before thy feet? How can it not be the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie?

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Al Touthentop said:

Do you realize how silly this idea is that Jesus would come to earth and force everyone to obey him?

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Revelation 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

sovereigngrace said:

When I hear things like you expound it makes me so glad to have abandoned Premil and embraced Amil. I now have an all-conquering reigning ruling Christ!!!

Click to expand...

The issue is not the power of Jesus.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The issue is aligning our desires with God's desires. God has laid out how He is going to bring the Kingdom of God to here on earth to be the ruling kingdom over all kingdoms on the earth. And to translate the living and raise the dead in Christ.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Some of you here are fighting God every step of the way.